Hilchos Harchakos: Lo Yistakel—Looking Versus Seeing and the Limits of Shemiras Einayim

Transcript

Kuf tzadik hei, halacha zayin. I want to begin with a diyuk, observation. What does the word yistakel mean? Now, the truth is, there's another way how to say it and write it: lo yireh, shouldn't see. Yistakel is to look; yireh is to see. The difference between the two: one is passive, the other is active. Yireh is, I'm passing by and the sight is coming to me. Yistakel, lichoira, implies more than just yireh, that he shouldn't see it. To look, to look, look. That takes an active kum v'aseh, pe'ulah, to do something, to look. Shh. So again, lo yireh, it doesn't say lo yireh; it says lo yistakel. Is this a true diyuk that we could clarify and say that yistakel means to pay attention and look? Or no, maybe just passively, you're not allowed to see it. Also, we could ask, does it mean l'histakel with intent to enjoy, or even if you're looking and no enjoyment involved? That's a very important shaila. So again, lo yistakel. How do we translate lo yistakel? Does it mean not to see, or does it mean not to look? The difference could be passive and active. Can I actively not look? But passively, if I'm just seeing it, it's not the end. It's not a problem. I don't have to go out of my way not to see, which I just said something very important. How much do I have to go out of my way not to see? Is there a shiur, a measurement of how much should I put effort into not seeing? Do I have to leave the room? Doesn't say. It just says lo yistakel. So if it means I shouldn't actively look, so I could be in the room as long as I don't look, right? And if it happens to be that I see, it's not the end of the world. Or I'm not allowed to see at all, not allowed to see. If I'm not allowed to see, so the question is, how much effort must be put into the not seeing? It doesn't say. It just says don't see. Okay. Maybe a person should walk around blindfolds. Maybe it's a very good idea that he goes into his room. It's a joke. I mean, I don't mean it seriously. I'm saying, what's the geder? You know, there are certain people that don't look at other women, and they're trained to look down, chassidim, they take their glasses off and they cover their hand over their eyes. Should they do the same thing when there's a chashash? No, seriously, maybe they should do that. It says, lo yistakel, you're not allowed to look, so you should be extremely careful not to look. What's the level of carefulness that one should— if that's true, maybe there's no halacha, maybe you're not allowed to look. But to see is not a problem. But if it's to see, at what stage is it normal adherence, shmira, and the rest of it is, you know, off the map, it's already too much, not clear. And therefore the shaila becomes to look without— to see without actually paying attention, and also if he is not with hana'ah, he's just happens to be in the room or just— So there's a Mishnah Berurah. Mishnah Berurah in siman ayin hei, se'if katan zayin. Close— could you tell— it's becoming very noisy. Mishnah Berurah, I want you to see the Mishnah Berurah. I think we should do it inside. Mishnah Berurah, siman ayin hei, se'if katan zayin. Mishnah Berurah brings from the Pri Megadim that by an eishes ish, a married woman, not his wife, we're talking about a married woman, even re'iyah, which has nothing to do with hana'ah, and even not look.

But see, this is awesome. Read it. Ayin hei, se'if katan zayin. Read the Mishnah Berurah. Oh, that issur, what is it? Yeah. Okay, yeah. U'beriyah bli hana'ah, yeah. Im lo mitzad ha'musar. Okay, so, re'iyah without hana'ah, shari, right? But not for Kriyas Shema, right? You got it? You hear it? Kriyas Shema, no. Regular, yes. Im lo mitzad ha'musar, which means there's a mussar involved. Should we take this Mishnah Berurah and cut and paste and put it in Hilchos Niddah? Does he speak about Hilchos Niddah? I know the end might be about Hilchos Niddah, but till here, what? It's not about Hilchos Niddah. It's about his wife, right? Not, I'm sorry, it's eishes ish, not his wife. What about—what is it? Talk, nu. Okay, finish, finish, finish reading. Okay, you know what? Finish reading. Okay. Oh, that's what I wanted, the Pri Megadim. Okay, go ahead. Okay, that's what I wanted, Pri Megadim. Okay. Rabbi Yitzchak, you hear what this Mishnah Berurah is paskening? That me'etzem halacha, the actual halacha, it's mutar, but he brings from the Pri Megadim that it's not mutar. Even b'ish— even b'eishes ish— sorry, even a re'iyah which is not hana'ah, a re'iyah which is not hana'ah, lefi tumo, it's still aser by a eishes ish. Does this apply to ishtei nidah, which the same Pri Megadim Mishnah Berurah apply? That's the question. Does the actual tumah and the lo hana'ah— if you don't mean, seems like, stam, your eyes went on it, and lo hana'ah means you're speaking to— But he brings both. He brings both cases, lefi tumo b'lo hana'ah. The Pri Megadim is re'iyah— right, read it, read it, Raffi. B'lo hineh. Both. He brings both. Re'iyah lefi tumo, b'lo hineh. Pri Megadim holds aser. The Mishnah Berurah says that it was mutar. So the question is, should I apply this to ishtei nidah also? I want a ta'ina that you have to know the yesod of this se'if. What is the issur histaklus for? What is it based on? Is the issur because re'iyah b'etzem is an issur like ervah? Tell me. Let's say a person looks at dirty, dirty material, right? The problem isn't that he might come to do aveiros with the woman that's in the dirty material. There's an issur lhistakel. There's an issur to look at that. Is the hilchos nidah lo yistakel the same halacha, that she's an ervah because it's his wife, but she's a nidah and a nidah is an ervah, so therefore there's an issur histaklus like any other ervah? Or it's only because of hergel, shelo yavo lidei, that if you look at her and you get enticed, you never know. Is it hilchos arayos or hilchos archakus? If you learn that it's b'etzem, right, so then we could come and say that it's no different than any other woman. Just like any other woman, there's an issur ervah and there's an issur histaklus on an ervah, and that issur, there's a machlokes, the Mishnah Berurah, first tzad and the Pri Megadim, if you're allowed to look, mishich lefi tumo, or re'iyah lefi tumo.

Tumah without hana'ah, so then ... here. But if you learn that it's a shailah of shema yavo lidei, and it's a shailah of hilchos harchakos, by regel ishah is not hilchos harchakos. So you can come and say that ishtei nidah is not the exact same story in shema yavo, because there's halachah, pas b'salo, yichud mutar. On one hand, we see that yichud is mutar. You said yichud is mutar, so so too this would be mutar, because what's the shema yavo? He might come to do an aveirah with her. It's not pas b'salo. So it could be it's not the same halachah, and lefi tumo and bli hanah might not apply over here, this pri megadim. Okay, one more time. You must learn the Shulchan Aruch. There's no way around ignoring what the word yistakel means. What does it mean? Now, in application, there's a very pashut shailah: do you mean to look, or do you mean to see? If I don't have intentions of looking and it's not about enjoying, is it mutar? That's a shailah of how do you learn yistakel. But actually it's deeper. The shailah becomes: is the issur histaklus like the issur histaklus on arayos, etzem ha'issur, or it's only harchakos, because this is going to come and bring to? Very nice shailah, right? What would be the nafka mina? The nafka mina besides, of course, is if I don't pay attention and I don't have hana'ah. Yeah, the Pri Megadim. Maybe the halachah, the Pri Megadim. That says, lefi tumah, blia naf, won't apply by ishte nidah, because it's not — you can't compare the two. Again, the truth is, the Gemara brings down that just like kol zemer is aser by eishes ish, it's bishto amru also. The Gemara compares kol zemer, and that's what the Pischei Teshuva brings down. Pischei Teshuva brings down, so you see that it's not just Hashem yavo. You see that there's a comparison between the regular eishes ish, ervah, and the wife when she's a nidah. You'll see the Pischei Teshuva inside soon. We're going to get to the Pischei Teshuva. He quotes the Gemara. So l'choirah, if that's the pshat, then it's an ervah like an eishes ish. Okay. Unless we say a chiddush, a lamdishe svara. Do I really hold with this svara? My feeling is not that it's right, but it's something we have to contemplate, because it's lomdus. You have to see a different angle of everything. You know what you could come and say? L'maaseh, a nidah is an ervah, as the Gemara says, tumah ksiva karais. You know, Tosafos Yevamos, tumah ksiva karais, right? It's mamash an ervah, right? It's ke'ervah. What does that mean, ke'ervah? What's negea to the biah issur? Then we had from Reb Shlomo Heiman, you remember all this Torah? Ah, come on, don't tell me you don't remember Yevamos. I'm going to feel very bad. I spent the days yelling and screaming and teaching you this stuff. Okay. There's no nesra by nida. So one of the reasons the mefarshim explain is because—oh, you're supposed to do it with this, I'm sorry. Okay. One of the reasons why is because even though it's an ervah, but it's not that she's an ervah, but the bi'ah is a bi'ah asurah. Remember this Torah? It makes sense. Okay. So as much as a nida is an ervah, she's not—the woman is an ervah; it's that the bi'ah is an arayos. So you can come and say on how much you'll have a problem that you might come to do a bi'ah, that's the issur of sikru l'galos. The ervah is not an ervah like an ervah, chas, like a goyte, like an eshes ish. So the issur histaklus can't be like that. What is the issur histaklus? No, therefore she—no, it's she. That's why she's an ervah. What do you mean? She's a woman that's— But the bi'ah is asur. No, the bi'ah is asur. That's not the mekor. She's asur. You mail anything to do with her is asur. Mashenkein by nida, the way the Acharonim explain to me.

It's an issur bi'ah, so the lo sikrvu is anything which is mevi lidei. No, so I'm saying a married kavar. So then the pshat is that anything which is not mevi lidei is no problem. I'm telling you a vort. That's very shayach, that's like an eishes ish, and it's very shayach, she's an ervah. But the ervah of nidah is not mechayev more than anything which will bring to bi'ah. It's a ... I, Refael, you hear my hakdarah? Hakdarah is beautiful. How do you look at your wife? She's an ervah, she's a nidah. What does that mean? She's not an ervah, she's an issur bi'ah. So the things that will lead to the issur biah, that's what's asur. ... It's kedai to come from Lakewood 25 hours just for this. Truth is, I didn't do so much, but it's kedai for you to drive me from Brooklyn. The only thing is that today I had to make a detour, so I don't know if it's kedai the detour also. That's very ... A little bit of a detour. I don't know if it was kedai, but all right, we'll see. We'll think about it. Okay, so you hear the vort. Refael, you wrote it down, you wrote it. A nice chakirah, but the taiches is either that she's b'etzem ervah, or the taiches is it's just a chashash shema yavo. Or we could come and say a lomdus shevart, that she's b'etzem an ervah, but what does it mean she's b'etzem an ervah? She's b'etzem an ervah only for the bi'ah, and whatever is going to be mevi lidei bi'ah, that's the issur arayos. So stam histaklus, she'eino mevi lidei bi'ah. It's not going to be a problem by ishto nidah. Oh. I want to show, it's not—it's saying either the pshat is that it's etzem ervah, or it's an archakah b'alma. Or even if it's b'etzem an ervah, but it's only legabei the bi'ah. So therefore the issur to look is only something which is me'akev the bi'ah. But he ties a nice vort, huh? Tell me, it's gevaldik. This is a classic. This is one of the classic ones. Okay. Let's take a look, taka, if we could compare the halachos that the Mishnah Berurah brings legabei eishes ish to ishto nidah. Siman ayin hei, se'if katan beis. I can't have 25 Maggid Shiurim in one beis medrash. I have to concentrate. Yeah? Kni is the knee. Okay. Okay. What about nidah? No nidah. Huh? But it says ishto, right? Afilu hi ishta. Yeah? Yeah. So I have a shayla, one second. How do you compare Kriyas Shema, let's say, erva. How can it be an erva? Slow down. You just said Kriyas Shema. What's the issur by Kriyas Shema? To read in front of an erva, right? But it's not an erva for you, so what's the problem? Not that the woman is an erva. The makom that's exposed is a makom erva. I understand. So any case which is mechusah is called an erva. To who? To a man. But it's—I'm not a man, I'm the husband, so to me it's not an erva. You understand? So if you understand it, you understand my question. So why can't we just come and say that it has nothing to do with erva, because for me it's not an erva? Tell me something: could a woman herself read Kriyas Shema when these places are not mechusah? Just listen to what I'm talking to you. Could a woman herself read when she doesn't have this covered? Yes or no? She can.

So it's not be'etzem ervah, because she's not allowed to be in front of an ervah either, right? Teretz is because it's an ervah too. It can't be an ervah be'etzem; it's an ervah too. But it's not too because the husband's allowed to do it. It's not an ervah. So where's the problem? So again, you're jumping the—you're jumping. I just—oh, God. It's not issur be'etzem, too. Is it issur be'etzem? So I'm trying to prove something. I'm trying to show you something, that it's not the taich that it's be'etzem, but there's such a lamdus of ervah which is mevi lidei. That's what I'm showing you from Kriyas Shema, okay? But I'm saying that, but something has to be spoken out. Why? Because just like we just asked the dinim of the pri megadim, does it apply to an ishtei nida? So you see a moirdige gevald, that true that the ishtei nida is different, but we see a lamdus that anything which is mevi lidei hirhur, when the time is not supposed to have hirhur, that becomes an ervah. And the halachos of Kriyas Shema apply there also. Now get up and repeat what I just said, because I know you— Okay, what I'm saying is like this. I want to know if should we take the halachos of the Mishnah Berurah... And apply to Hilchos Niddah. It's a very nice question. The primogod, does it apply to Hilchos Niddah? So the first thing is, it's a different type of arayos. You're not going to say your wife is the same ervah as a neshes ish. At the same time, it's very possible that there is a shtikel ervah, and that's an ervah of bi'ah, or anything which is mevielidei hirhur, where it's not supposed to have hirhur, is also ervah. And the proof I'm showing to you is, because krias Shema by ishtei tahorah, krias Shema by ishtei tahorah, you're not allowed, but it's not an ervah to you. And for her herself, it would be mutar. I, it's not be'etzem ervah. But since it's mevielidei hirhur him, and during Krias Shema is not the time that you're supposed to have hirhurim, so it's hechs ervas davar. That's a mighty chiddush. It's a mighty deheter in whatever it is. You can now get up and say. Yeah, I'm sorry, if that which it says in Shulchan Aruch, it's lo yistakel afilu ba'akevah, so everybody needs to know, seven mekoros in Chumash, what about the shtam... So, what I compare this to the simanim in Orach Chaim that talk about a man doing Krias Shema, saying the Torah, opposite even his wife having certain mekomos meguleh, which are usually... Some would say that it is the same, but there is much to be said that it's not exactly the same, because possibly the reason why it's aser there is because it's mevielidei hirhur, whereas in Hilchos Niddah it might be aser because it's mevielidei ma'aseh. Therefore, am I saying correct? I mean, it's a beautiful svara, but it's not what I said. That's what I said, I don't know. You know, Rav Yitzchok Grelik once said, told Rav Yitzchok Grelik, a guy once came to Rav Yitzchok Grelik and asked if he could see over his shiur for Sheva Brachos. He saw the way I'm looking at him, I'm going, What is he saying? And I'm trying to think, it sounds good, let me see. Maybe he's saying a good shtikel Torah, but it's not what I said. So he asked Rav Yitzchok Grelik if he could use a shiur for Sheva Brachos Torah. So Rav Yitzchok Grelik told him, Listen, my Torah you could say in your name, but I'm begging you, your Torah don't say in my name. Okay, so let's start again. The Mishnah Berurah is mechadesh to me that you're not allowed to look at a woman that's an eishes ish, to have hana'ah, derech re'iyah, that you're looking, derech histaklus. Then he brings from the Pri Megadim, that the Pri Megadim says even without that it's asur. So I don't know, he brings it like a Pri Megadim, k'ilu he's maskim, or he's just bringing a different de'ah. It's not even clear in the Mishnah Berurah what he himself holds. You have to know the klalim when the Mishnah Berurah brings a psak and then he brings a Pri Megadim. The whole thing is the Pri Megadim. But b'mekom somechosim is asur, you should לא... Okay, good.

Good. So the prima gadim is clear, of prima gadim, right? So the shaila is, this prima gadim, should we take it and apply it to hilchos nidah? That we don't know. It's not clear. It doesn't say it anywhere. Okay. So the first thing I tell you, you have to know what is eishes ish and what is nidah. Is nidah b'etzem an ervah? If it's b'etzem an ervah, then it applies, just like an eishes ish. Now the Pischei Teshuvah is going to bring us a Gemara that says that they're the same, and that's why kol zeh is aser by eshes nidah. So then I say like this, wait a minute. It's very possible that you're right it's an ervah, but the ervah that it is is not an ervah shei, but it's an ervah for bi'ah. So the issur of lo yistakel can also only be in relevance to what's going to bring lidei bi'ah. It's not that you're not allowed to look at your wife. Of course you're not. You're not allowed to look at an eishes ish, but you're allowed to look at your wife. But in a way that will be meivi lidei bi'ah, that's the ervah. It's a beautiful vort. He holds it's a beautiful vort. Okay. And then I say to you, let's look at it the other way. Say like this: b'etzem, b'etzem, the holy side of ervah is something which is meivi to hirhurim asurim. The issur histaklus of ervah is about hirhurim asur, and I have a raya. What's my raya? When it comes to hilchos Kriyas Shema, you're not allowed to read in front of mekomos hamechusim, right? These mekomos hamechusim are b'etzem ervah. You see that the woman— It's not asur to read. It's that someone else is not allowed to read. But this someone else is the husband; for the husband it's not an ervah, so what's the problem? He can't come and say, Oh, but you have be'etzem it's an ervah. It's not libarois ervah; it's not that type of ervah. It's b'koymesa mechusah; it's something else. The arm is not be'etzem ervah, and the raya is because she could. Nor the vad is; he uses the word because it's mevleidei hirhurim. So you see that there's yesod in hilchos ervah, and issur re'iyah, which is something which is mevleidei hirhurim. It's a whole new... Where will be an ervah where she can't cover? The what? Where will be an ervah where she cannot... Libarois ervah. That's mamash libarois ervah. You see by Rivka, you see it, that she has to cover herself in a way it shouldn't be libarois ervah, but she's not covered. What it means, she's completely uncovered. We're going to talk about covering the hair. We'll have to talk about it a little bit later. First let's get the klal. We're going to talk about the hair. Now, I'll tell you what I think there's enough to me. Let's say it's not direct. It's through a mirror. Could you look at your wife, mechusim, through a mirror? Now there's a halacha of ervah bahashashis. What is ervah bahashashis? Ervah bahashashis is when it's covered with a glass, but it's see-through. The glass is see-through. So, it's not you actually seeing the ervah, because there's a mafsik. But your mind, especially if it's hirhurim, is seeing ervah. What about mar'ah in the mirror? Here it's like not even direct; it's just a reflection of. It's not even direct see-through; it's a reflection of. So Reb Moshe in the teshuvos, chelek beis siman ayin hei, says that it's the same problem, that the issur lo yistakel would apply even in a mirror. What's the havamina? So I want to explain to you like this. If you learn that the taich is hirhurim, so it's a rabba al ma'asis, right? What's there to talk about? If you learn that the pshat is that it's b'etzem an ervah, it's b'etzem an ervah, so again it wouldn't make a difference. You can't look at arayos in a mirror; it's not going to help you anything. But if you learn it's a shema yavo lidei, and it's a shailah of hergel, so maybe a person could come and say that if it's not direct, it's not direct. It's al yedei shinui, slowly, it's not direct.

It's not gonna be Maybely day. Okay, everybody has to be quiet and let me talk. You see, I'm pushing the envelope. I'm pushing with you. Are you allowed to see your wife's mekoymes hamechusim in a picture? And I have two shailas about that. One is if the picture was taken when she was a niddah, and now she's not. Or the other way around. The picture was taken when she was not a niddah, and now she is. One second, why are you laughing? Why are you— one second, Rafi, why are you laughing? It's a beautiful shaila. Did your cheating books talk about this? Not one, not one. I went to look. I looked all over the place. I couldn't find it. Morei matz, a great kasha. If you say maybe they hearurim, so what's the problem? No? If it's maybe they hearurim, it's maybe they hearurim. I mean, I'm badtzan. I'm saying, come and say, I'm as badtzan. It's in a picture. You're allowed to look at dirty pics, avada not. But I'm saying it's not, ishti, ishti is not the same. But if it's maybe they hearurim, maybe, no? It says a beautiful picture of his wife. What? So you're saying 100% it should be aser no matter what. You don't see why it should be aser? Right? The opposite. During the picture, she wasn't, right? And now she is. So maybe lidei, maybe lidei, maybe she'd be aser. But what he talks about, it's a good kasha. And you know what the teretz is? You're not really looking at her; you're looking at a picture of her. Maybe a mirror is the same thing. I don't see the question. I know, because you're not being maskim to the picture, but the picture you see, l'chara you don't talk about. Any rav who paskens for you and not look at pictures of your wife, which she's an... you're finished. What do you mean? So I'm asking, I want to know what's the difference. You ever heard a posek says you're not looking at pictures when...? You would say that if your wife went with you on a beach somewhere, and you're looking at the pictures, or she wears short-sleeve shirt, and you're looking at the picture when she's an eidah, it becomes aser? When she's an eidah now, yeah. I don't see why it's not aser. Why is it not? What would you say? Who said? You ever saw anybody ask this? I didn't find one book that asks. You'd be matir. Okay. Why? Because you want to. Nice other.

Let's move on. You pasken the way you want. I'm just learning with you that you have to— Why not? Because it's not her. You're looking at— it's not b'etzem her. You're looking at something which is a picture of her. Either there's no yichud room, but that's not the takanah. That's not the issue. The issue is to look at her, not to look at a picture of her. But by ishti nidah they did not say that. But by ishti nidah— It's pas basalo, they did not say that. Okay. Sha? Of what? Of your wife. I'm talking the same thing. That's the same thing as a picture. Bathing suit. Not even bathing suit. Not even bathing suit. A pajama. I'm going to talk about suit pajamas. Next. Now, I'd like to know why the Shulchan Aruch talks about her heel, afilu b'ikvah, even her heel. What's— I mean, a heel is mechuseh; it's not mechuseh. So some want to say a little bit mechuseh, some time mechuseh, part of it is mechuseh. How about the Siddur Tairi that talks about how women's legs are ugly? So, you saw the Seder Tahar? The Seder Tahar is that there's nothing enticing about a woman's heel. Heel? So what happened is, Rabosai, the following: ... but it's not a pretty sight. What are you laughing? Maybe she has a infection, right? It's a fungus, all right, whatever it is. I don't have to go into all the details, whatever it is. Ha? ... Read the Seder Tahar, right? Ugly is an English word. You're not going to find that. He doesn't explain what the chish of akeves. Give it to me. Where is it? Let me see. Okay. It's all right. I won't bother you with the details. It's here. Okay, it says like this: Ikva d'naki l'rabusa, u'kol shekein b'sha'ar evarim, mekayemes hayofi. It says it. Okay, so kol shekein, but the point is it's not yofi. That's the idea, all right? So I'm asking, what happens if it's not a pretty size? It's something that's not, you know. The wife tells, could you look at what I have over here? You know, it's okay. I think I'll pass on it, right? What? You tell it's asur. It's not. Okay. So that's the difference between you and a real posek. A real posek might come and say, Who says it's asur? The wife wants you to look at it. Maybe there's no problem when it's not yofi. And where would the posek base it on? Because you see that the Siddur Tairas says that ikva is a chiddush because it's not mekayemes hayofi. And like you said, it's not yofi, but it's not ugly necessarily, per se. Maybe...

If something is taka ugly, there's no problem, claiming it's a mechusar. What's the lomdus? The lomdus is gar gaval. If it's b'etzem ervah, there's no excuses that it's not pretty, right? Somebody, no one can come and say, Ervah, but it's not—are you allowed to look at this goyte? Yeah, she's not pretty. That's not going to help you that she's not pretty, right? Ma she'ein kein, if it's about shema yavi lidei... see, the klal chakirah, something which is not megara the yetzer hara, that it might be mutar. This is the nekudah of Yofi. Telling him chazak is very strong, and the whole bismedrash doesn't have to hear the strong words that he speaks about. Okay, now, what happens if it's something which is used, the uses, that it's left open? For example, some women don't cover their hair in the house. Some women don't cover their hair in the house. So Reb Moshe speaks about it. Reb Moshe says that he's used to seeing that in the house, so it's not going to get his yetzer hara enticed, so therefore it becomes mutar even b'ishto nidah. Now, l'chora, you see a mechudash in Reb Moshe, that what? That it's about shema yavi lidei hirhurim. It's not b'etzem, because if it was b'etzem, you can't come and say, Well, normally—who cares what normally? Normally it's mutar, so what's the shaylah? Unless Reb Moshe is tying a ma'ida kavart, and I spoke about this many times to you, what constitutes ervah is something which is darken l'chasos. If it's not dark l'chasos, right, so then it's not an ervah meikara, huh? Well, that's the Aruch HaShulchan's heter. The Aruch HaShulchan's heter was that you'd be allowed to; that was... Okay, so can I—can I—you'll argue about this later, but let's learn the mitoch. Can we learn a little bit? Ramoishes chiddush is that shema yavoi lidei, l'choira, and therefore he's matir. If the technical shema yavoi lidei is not there, this is a chelek beis siman ayin hei. So the first thing is, I'm clarifying maybe Ramoish, I only spoke about here. That's the first shaila I have over here. I don't know, maybe here, you know, Europe, Ramoish's wife, like all other rebbetzins in Europe, didn't cover for many years. Maybe here is a whole different sugya, okay? Aruch HaShulchan, I don't think that the Aruch HaShulchan would be matir a bathing suit if everybody walked around with a bathing suit. I'm not 100% sure about that, by the way. Maybe if everybody walks around like that, it's a nacha nami, that's its tznius. Like I once spoke to you, if a person wears a bathing suit at a pool, is that chasaron tznius? No, because that's called dressed for the occasion. Tznius is when you're dressed not for the— For example, if a person goes to a simple event dressed like for a wedding, that's also chasaron tznius, because it attracts, sticks out, it attracts. Mashen kein, if it's norm, then it's tznius, right? Okay. So the first shaila is maybe Ramoish's teshuva is only by here. So then I have a different shaila. Let's say certain women wear... Pajamas that are like half pants, half-pants pajamas. Shorts, shorts that are pajamas. Or she walks around the house without socks. Or if you're going to come and say, You're not allowed, get out, kiss, and she goes to sleep that way, which is my next shaylah. If being that way when you sleep is also considered that it's the way she dresses and he doesn't have a problem with it, or it's only the way she walks around in the house, I don't tzarichiyin li by all this, yeah? Very nice shaylos. The first thing is maybe Remaisha's teshuvah is only by here, because here is less of an issue of ervah for whatever reasons, okay? So, but if it's walking around in shorts, it's a different story. Second shaylah, even shorts, maybe it's something that she wears when she sleeps, but she doesn't walk around the house that way, so that's not going to be matir that he's allowed to look at it, because to sleep is one thing, but Remaisha's heter is she walks around the house that way. I walk around in pajamas, walks around the issue when she's going to sleep. Or maybe not. Maybe Remaisha held even if she goes to sleep, so I'm used to it and there's no shema yavo lidei. Okay. The last—

Shailas. The list shaila is going to be, what was this? That's it, the sleeping, the pants. Okay. And the socks, it's the same type of shaila, okay? Because let's say she doesn't wear socks when she goes to sleep. Huh? What, to look at the wife while she's wearing pants? Yeah, sir, I don't know. It's no sham yoveli dei lechayer. She'll walk around that way, I don't know. Again, I said that's a Moshe's teshuva. Moshe's teshuva is we don't go after in the outside; we go after what you in the house. It's a chiddush. Okay. Now, the Rama brings down an interesting halacha. So we just did now, lo yistakel, afilu b'ikva, v'loy b'mekomos hamechusim shebah. So the truth is the lashon is a little bit strange. V'loy, I mean, the case of ikva is b'mekomos hamechusim. So you have to say it means lo yistakel afilu b'ikva, and also not, or maybe kol shekein, the way the Sefardiim, and kol shekein not all other mekomos hamechusim which are more attractive. Okay. Okay. Aval mutar lhistakel bah, b'mekomos hagluyim, af al pi sheneheneh b'reiyasa. And the Shach explains, because of pas basal, he says no problem. What does it mean, neheneh briyoso? Translate the word neheneh briyoso. He just thinks she's pretty and he enjoys the look. He enjoys the person. Maybe he gets taiva from... I don't know, what is neheneh briyoso? You know, I don't know. I mean, huh? He enjoys you. I mean, it's very fine line between the two. I don't know the... I don't know if you're neheneh briyoso. I mean, so what's the next step? One is taiva, one is stam, you enjoy... You know the difference between the two? Huh? Yeah. You do know the difference between the two? For two seconds, I mean, you know, you like my hara, no? I'm saying it's not... Sometimes you only have two seconds. What do you mean? How do you know this? What do you mean? And mekayemes hamechusim is worse, you mean? Too much. So that's how you're learning it. Then the Chinuch, the hirhurim part is there. So that was my shaila. Why is the Ramban not afraid of hirhurim? I didn't understand that. I learned the way he learned, and I didn't understand why the Ramban is not afraid of hirhurim. I learned the way you learned, that, see, the way these guys are learning, I had a tzad like that, but I didn't... felt more like him. That there's a difference between the hanah briyahsa and taiva. But it's such a fine line. What does that mean? It's possible sometimes not to have taiva. Af al pi, not that your intention is, but while you're calm, you're smiling. You don't have to worry about it. Even if it happens, it happens. That's also a way how to learn the Ramban. In other words, you're not having hanah. You're not supposed to look to have hanah. Af al pi, I like it. What are you, taina? Give me a piece of paper. I'll write you a smicha. No, a hundred percent. You deserve smicha for that. You didn't see the smicha I wrote you. You see what I'm going to write, you'd realize it doesn't take... I need a blank piece of paper. One second. Do you have a blank piece of paper? Okay, here's your smicha. Here it is. Okay. Now, you hear? I don't know. I was gribbling on this Ramban a little bit. I like what he said. At that point, I never thought him. I thought your tzad, and I felt more close to what Rav Volbe says. But I hear now a third tzad. Af al pi sheneheneh briyahsa, even if you'll have hanah, you don't have to be choshesh for that. Just look at her, okay? And if it comes...

It's asanah, so he has hana'ah. But l'hedyot to go look, to look at her, to have hana'ah, maybe not. I like it, not bad, not bad. Af al pi shenehenah, even though it doesn't mean that, even though if it happens to be they'll have hana'ah. Or like what you're saying is the chiluk between taivin hana'ah. Or like Rav is saying is that it's possible that it'll be mevlidei, but I'm ta'ina chiddush. You're not mechuyav to worry about that. Af al pi shenehenah, even though he has hana'ah, I don't know if you're mechuyav here to do things, you hear, that will cause you not to have. What does it mean? Erev means dvarim hamevi'im lidei, right? U'v'mekomos hamechusim, there's no geder ervah at all. So the whole thing is something that will bring lidei, right? It might bring lidei. It's shayach to have hana'ah and it won't be mevi lidei? Shayach. Shayach the other way also, right? Not mechuyav for that. In hilchos archakah you're not mechuyav. The thing that's mevi lidei here, to look at an ervah itself, to look at what's called the mekomos hamechusim, that's asur because— The klaymesel chusim is dvarim hameviim lidei ervah. But vibald it's normal to look at the wife, it's normal to look at the wife, you don't have to worry about the meivi lidei. If it comes, you know, you're the type of person that has a problem. No, yeah, yeah, answer the question. There's two parts to the next shaila. Me personally, let's say me personally, I do have a problem. Or, or, or, what happens if it did come? What happens then? Can we talk about that in a few minutes? But first let's go step by step. I want to say a chiddush. You know, I remember when Rabbi Roth paskened a certain shaila, and I liked it. I liked it a lot. He was discussing, around the dentistry, it's interesting, he was discussing the dentistry with the filling, and she's putting in a filling, and a problem of shaila chatzitza. I remember the way he kept on making sure everybody at the table understood what he wanted. He kept on repeating, he kept on saying, repeat it after me. You have to do things normal. If right now she's not going to the mikveh, so right now she doesn't have to worry about putting in something that might be a problem later. Now, I don't want to discuss that halacha, because it's irrelevant here now. What I do want to discuss is the Torah never asked you to look at your wife. Ilan, he says the same thing over there. So why are you looking at this? The Torah never assered, the Torah never assered normal hanhagah, which means if a person wants to come home to his wife and start going like this, no, it's no good, no good. Maybe if you're a chassid and she's a chassid and a heilige mensh, I don't know. We'll talk about that from the sefer Chassidim if there's an inyan, so we'll get to that a little bit later. What the Rambam is saying is, a me'orer degateher, aval mutar lhistakel bah b'mekomos hagluyim. You're allowed to look at her. The idea is not to look at the mekomos hagluyim; it's mutar lhistakel bah. He says the same thing, b'mekomos hagluyim. I want to say a me'orerdige chiddush. Could a person go to the mekomos hagluyim and stand there and stare at it and spend time on the mekomos hagluyim? I don't know if that's this Rambam. I don't know if that's this Rambam. Here, for example, a guy can sit there and analyze his wife's features on her face. It's b'mekomos hagluyim, but that's not what the halacha. The halacha is mutar lhistakel bah.

You say mutar lhistakel bimkomes hagluyim, mutar lhistakel bah b'mekomos hagluyim, af al פי, like what you said, Ilan, it might come out that there's an issur. So what? But it's mutar to look at your wife. Chazal understood that there's no issur. Nowhere does it say a person should not look at his wife b'ma'aseh. Mutar lhistakel bah b'mekomos... af al פי sheneheneh b're'iyasa. So should you worry that you might have hirhurim? No. And I'll tell you what I have from this. You ready? There's a whole shaila in the poskim: are you allowed to smell her perfume? Are you allowed to smell her perfume? Smell. When it's on her, it's very, you know, you'd be a real navigator to say it's mutar. You know, it's on her and you're smelling it on her. You know, that's not exactly something that a rav should be matir. But when it's not on her, it's not on her. So chayr, it's telling you this shaila, you hear? Yeah, take the bottle and smell it. It's maybe dei hirhurim, huh? You say not, the poskim say yes. It's brought down all the poskim, you shouldn't smell because the bottle, because it's going to bring you to hirhurim. What? Okay, so if you take a look, you'll find that the poskim say that there's a shaila if you should smell the bottle. Okay. Now, if the taich is that you're allowed to look b'mekomos hagluyim because you're allowed to look at her. But at the same time, you're not going to look at things that are going to be maybely day. This is the maybely day, the same thing. But if you can talk about Hilchas erva, there's no Hilchas erva here at all. What erva is it when you look at a psak? You look at a Saint Laurent, there's nothing erva about it. It's what it is, a Saint Laurent. Who was niftar yesterday? There was one tzaddik. Saint Laurent was niftar. All of Asholom zichrono... Okay. We have to give him all the credit, all the praises of the world. Saint Laurent, right? Was he a Jew? Was he a Jew? Saint. Huh? No, he was a saint because he gave them dirty clothing. He was called a saint. What? French. I know he was a French Jew. Huh? Vincent Laurent. Okay, now, listen carefully. You hear? It was on the news yesterday, the whole day they were being maspid him, the great tzaddik. He was the one who gave women pants. Before him there were no pants for women. He was the mechadesh of it. And Rav Ovadia Yosef holds it's not a ... right? Rav Ovadia Yosef ... right? Ben Yaakov, ben a miniskirt. So, kumt ois, he's a tzaddik. He did a tremendous thing, no? Before him was the miniskirt. After him was the pants. But the problem is it went deeper than that, because now the women wear the pants in the house. He says it's mutar, there were pants, miniskirts. Rav Ovadia has pants in a ... He says that this is not an issur, this is asur. He would say nothing. He wouldn't pasken the ... Was he saying I have tainus? No, he says, I love this stuff. It's a pashtus zach. It's not so. If it was so pashut, why do you have to write 20-page teshuva about it? He could just write, I think so, I think so, maybe, they gave a ... said it's good. Could have just said that ... said it's good, and that's all. What would anybody else ... If I got ..., should better to walk on the mini skirt or just pants? He would say better to close school down. That's what he would say. Rabbi Elyashiv would comment, 100 percent, Rabbi Elyashiv would say close school down. No shaila about it. Yeah, but what are you talking to me? I'm with you. This is great stuff. I'm with you. That's, it's called chiddushim in halacha. It's great. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Okay, now let's go vayter. You ready? Okay, not now, please. All the stories for later. Let's go vayter. You ready? Now. You're listening good, listen good. So if you learn that the nidn of lo yistakel, first of all, who does he quote with smelling her besamim in the bottle? Can you find it for me? What chiddah, who's it from? Okay, go ahead, read it for me.

Says, You know, smell her bottle. Go ahead, her perfume bottle. Okay, if you learn that the lo yistakel... Yeah, he says, ... אסור להביט ביופיה של אשה... ... אסור להריח... ... אסור להסתכל... ... אסור להביט ביופיה... ... אסור להסתכל... ... יד הדוכן... ... שמן הריחת בשמים שעליה... ... חמירא מסתכלות... ... או לכל הפחות שווה לו. ... חידה... ... שרי תשובה... ... ... Okay, so, you know what? Let's not even go to the bottle. There is a place for the bottle, but all right. Let's say a lel, right? If you hold that it's a shailah of ervah, so where's the ervah? Where's the ervah? When he brings down the bottle, he talks about the bottle. If she takes it out of the bottle and the rest is there, you're allowed to... Oh, they talk about it. Who does he quote? ... ... I know I saw it somewhere. I couldn't remember where I saw it. It's in Aruch HaShulchan. I saw it. I was thinking this morning, where did I see the first one? Where did I... It's in Aruch HaShulchan. Yeah, right. And he brings Chelkim on it? No, he brings the... Okay, there are Aruch HaChelkim on it, you can imagine, in the Chassidishe world there are Chelkim on it. There's a whole shailah the other way around, if the wife—I'm just kidding—if the wife could smell the husband's perfume. Okay, now. Okay, listen carefully. Listen carefully, rabosai, listen good. Okay, not now. If it's ervah, it's ervah to smell the besamim, shalisha. But if it's hirhur, so kol davar sheme'akev the hirhur is included in the lo yistakel. Okay. Kol zemer ishto. She's singing, yeah, and she's a nida. Now, if she's b'etzem an ervah, so b'etzem then it's asur, you know. Kol ervah is asur. If it's a she'eilah of maybe lidei, then I was thinking of a few things. What happens if she doesn't know how to sing? Probably. She has a terrible voice. It's a terrible voice. That's the way it is. A pretty voice from a woman is me'aved the hirhur. That's just the way it is. You hear? What are you talking about? What happens if she has not such a pretty voice? Or she says she's a pretty girl. That's exactly what I'm— you know what? You're repeating over the shiur. That's exactly what I'm getting at. If you learn it's b'etzem issur, if it's b'etzem issur, so it doesn't make a difference. But if it's a maybe lidei, but by the histaklus it's not only— it's maybe lidei, it's not allowed to look at the ervah. If kol zemer is maybe lidei, so maybe there's not maybe lidei. Now what happens if she's together with other people at the table and she's singing? So the poskim talk about, kemishtam'i, lo mishtam'i. It's called— what should we call it? Machashachaviv. Since it's chaviv, you hear both voices. Who says it's chaviv, his wife's voice? Maybe every time he hears his wife's voice, it brings him nightmares. In the middle of the night he hears his wife's voice, Get up, sit, stand. Who says it's going to bring him? Okay. Now, thinking also another thing. If it's batzimasar, so there's no ... pashtus. But if it's taka maybelydei, if a person sits at a Shabbos table and she sings together with other people zemiros Shabbos, I don't have to make ... there. I'm not saying she's singing separately and she outweighs everybody else and it's beautiful. She's singing together with other people, which is stam a shaila. I was thinking if, let's say, you have a choir of men and ladies, is there a problem of kol ishah? So if you learn macha d'chaviv lei, so that's the kol you hear. We spoke about this. Macha d'chaviv lei means that's the kol you hear. So maybe the woman's kol is more chaviv than the man's kol, so you always hear the lady's kol. But if macha means you hear both, so maybe both is not issur kol ishah. What does the Gemara mean? The Gemara talks about Megillah. If, let's say, two people are reading the Megillah, or two people, right, it's two kolos at the same time, so macha d'chaviv, since Megillah is chaviv, you'll hear that voice. So let's apply it to kol ishah. Maybe the ishah's kol is more chaviv, so—

With the men, you'll hear the ishah. Or the pshat is, chav means you hear both of them. Maybe dafka there we say such a concept of chav. Okay, so the poskim bring it here also. That's a Pischei Teshuva. The Pischei Teshuva brings down the inyan of chav. So Pischei Teshuva has a safek: al kol panim, al kol panim, refael, put that away; that you can do later, right? Al kol panim, what do we have? That maybe with him, if it's b'etzem ervah and the keli is b'etzem ervah, it's like b'komes hamechusim, so then there's no heter. But if the pshat, it's only a meivi lidei, so we could chip away on the meivi lidei. Now I want you to know, first of all, there's a Pischei Teshuva that's choiker bichlal there's a problem. Rav Shlomo Zalman paskened that if a wife is singing zemiros at the Shabbos table, leave her alone. There's a sefer called the Le'olam Yibol that brings teshuvos from Rav Shlomo Zalman that he himself asked. Yeshivos don't like to play with this sefer because he was a left-winger, and he asked about the army and stuff. I don't know, he asked a lot of... but l'maaseh, he's a trustworthy person. He asked Rav Shlomo Zalman. It's interesting that he has a hakdamah to his sefer that the children of Rav Shlomo Zalman said that they shouldn't make such a sefer. They write to him. They're writing him back that I don't hold you should make such a sefer because my father just answered it, you know, kol achad yad, bli iyun haroy. Either the taiches that they didn't like the mechaber and they didn't hold he's reliable, and therefore they gave him such a letter, or the pshat is they didn't hold of the whole shita, but l'maaseh you see a lot of sefarim come out that way, or maybe they wouldn't hold it os sefarim also. He himself writes that the truth is, I'm putting the sefer in that you should know. Both sides of the coin. You should hear that the whole that you shouldn't be sameach hameiseh, but you'll decide if you should be sameach hameiseh. Al kol panim, he brings over there that Rav Shlomo Zalman paskened that you should leave your wife alone if she sings at the table. Why? When? When there's somebody else? No, at the Shabbos table, leave her alone. Why? One here is sevara. Since the Pischei Teshuva has two צדדים, and it's a shayla, your wife's nechuchis, she's a... you have always, when there's two צדדים in the poskim, you always take the tzad kula when it's a shayla of bothering another person. It's an interesting klal. You say it over to other people, right, Hilchos need to basically goes off the board for Rav Shlomo Zalman. Al kol panim, I just thought it was an interesting way of looking at it. Okay, now, are you allowed to listen to your wife singing on a tape? Now it's no different than any of the other tapes, מסתמא, that they have kol isha. What's the shayla of a tape? If you learn it's ervah b'etzem, this is not ervah b'etzem, right? Can't come and say that the tape is ervah b'etzem. But if it's meivel, they hear herim, the klal is there anyway. I'm just showing you that it depends on how you learn the sugya. So, l'choira, the same would be by a wife. Now, what happens if she does פעולות that will cause chibah? For example, she's playing the piano beautifully. She's doing things. So the Minchas Yitzchak, chelek vav, says that it should be asur. It's me'orer chibah. Taharas Habayis, Rav Ovadia Yosef, page kuf ayin. Says it's mutar. Pshat, we ased ervah, we didn't aser peulos, we didn't aser she's supposed to do things that, right? Okay, so don't have hirhurim. What do you want? Look it up. Says maybe for him it's maybe hirhurim, but for others... Look, you search, you search. Look it up. Page kuf ayin. Any peulah, you hear? It's not her singing, but it's her playing music. Yeah, playing music. She's playing beautiful. You're standing there and you're watching the way she's playing the harp, right? And she's not singing. She's not singing at all, right? She's walking around with butterfly wings playing the harp, okay? Nice imagination. Go ahead, nu. Kuf ayin. Oh, he brings the case of kinor, you see, the harp. Yeah. You see, he had to ruin it a little bit. Maybe because music is not mutar. I don't know. Go ahead, yeah.

You know what I'm thinking also? It's very interesting. Is there a difference? Do you think there's a difference between different instruments? Like, let's say she's playing a keyboard. If she's singing, playing guitar, I don't know, one of these instruments that... No, no, something that's more romantic. I don't know, a violin, she's playing the violin. I don't know. Tell me, you like it, you like it. I did my homework, huh? Kinar, the kinar. I was thinking about it. Because if you learn that the taich is anything that brings liday... Okay, so let's asser. Okay, let's move to the next nekudah. A woman is singing lullaby to her baby, to go to sleep, right? So are you allowed to go and listen to that lullaby? Now, I think that if you're not going to pay attention bedavka to it. Remember I spoke to you, aser lhistakel. Aser lhistakel means maybe that you have to look, but to see is not a problem. So here you have the pischei teshuva, which holds that maybe it's mutar. B, it's a shayla of the kid. And C, you're not bedavka going to listen. It's not lhistakel, you know, looking. It's, you're there. You're not mechuyiv to walk out of the room. You can hear it and you're not mechuyiv to walk out of it. Maskim? Okay. Bichlal, are you allowed to look at your wife when she's singing? What does it mean, kol also? Who? When she's putting the baby to sleep, she doesn't really sing. I don't know, some do. She makes a real... Doesn't have to be a chazan. No, I'm saying she doesn't really, like, make a real voice, just whatever. Hush, little baby, hush. It's not a niggun, it's a shein niggun. I know people who sing it for the watcher, for Hallel. I'm saying she would sing and... I didn't even know what I'm talking about. I once had, in the shul where I daven, the Chassidishe shul, the Rebbe's, a real satmar, you know, a bad. He doesn't let kolbach negunim. Doesn't? No, because Reb Moshe, Reb Moshe said—it's a whole teshuva about it. Reb Moshe writes that a yarei Shamayim should listen to kolbach's nigunim. Oh, you don't know this? Wow. With all the music. He never said who he's talking about, but everybody knows he was talking about Kolbach. And a person who sings beautiful nigunim, but he's not—korei is not tahor. So he says that the person should really stay away from it. Reb Moshe's teshuva. So this guy takes it very serious, and he doesn't let any kolbach nigunim in the thing. Good. He invited his brother-in-law or something, chaver satmar guy, to come and sing geshmak, to be mispalel geshmak on Sukkos. How does Hatikvah go again? No, he got up there, he goes, Ha... geshem... and I'm singing and I'm going, What is this guy doing? I walked over to him, I said, Reb Yid, you don't let kolbach nigunim. He goes, I think you let. So he goes, What? That's what it was? How do you know? I heard the nigun, it was beautiful, I used it. I'll never forget, he was shocked. He was like—he thought he did the biggest aveirah, what he could have done. He didn't know what to say. He didn't know what—he heard the nigun. But the pshat is because they're so rachok from the Zionism, that's why you're able to make such a mistake. No guy can make a mistake like that. Everybody knows what a tikvah is, right? Who doesn't know what that is, right? He was so ... that when he heard those ... he was, Why would you use ...? It's געוואלדיק. Okay, so the same thing, hashlalah l'baby, is it a problem? So I'm going to tell you that it's mutar. Okay, now, are you allowed to look at your wife? Are you allowed to look at your wife who's a niddah? Okay, so we just learned that you're allowed to look, right? Ah, so we could come and say the lashon. What's the lashon? Mutar lhistakel. Now, if lhistakel means not just to see, but mamash lhistakel, the diuk is true in the beginning, so the diuk should be true in the Rama. There's a Reishis Chochmah, Shaar HaKedushah, perek chaf-gimmel, that says if you look at your wife who's niddah, pogem the neshama, so it's going to be tremendous bad things are going to happen to your neshama. Sefer Chasidim, it says, Lo yistakel b'faneha. You shouldn't look at her face. He doesn't talk about b'mkomos mechusim, and he says if you do, it'll be kasher l'shikchah. So either the kasher l'shikchah, Sefer Chasidim, either it could be kasher l'shikchah, right? Faker, you have to say if you forget it'll be kasher.

Kasher you could learn that the kashlah shechah has to do with inyanim gashmiyim. Maybe it's ruchniyusdike things. I have a whole thing about kashlah shechah, that anything that you do which is not proper, halachically, bercheretzdik, is kashlah shechah. What is kashlah shechah? You do this, kashlah shechah. You do that, you put your clothes on your head, kashlah shechah. So either you learn that it's some segulos and spirituals, or the pshat is anything which is not bercheretz, anything which is not toyredik, is kashlah shechah. What's not toyredik? Yeah, what's not toyredik? Yes. Nivhalus. If you were in Kelm, you wouldn't even ask such a shaylah, you know that? Kelm. Not therech eretz. We live in America that everything's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know? You ever see the salad of America? They take salad, and they sit there and they chop it up, like into little pieces. A European would never. I remember my grandmother. You see, that's the nuances, the nuances, the nuances. I remember my grandmother, she couldn't understand the salad. This is not the table. Such a salad on the table? It's not refined. It's not refined. Okay, let's move on. Al kol panim, you hear? So what makes the kashlah shechah? I want to say an interesting chiddush. What happens if a chosson, kodem his chasunah, kodem his— no. Before he was baal, before the bi'ah rishonah, yeah? So there's a nisah yichud. So this Rema doesn't apply anymore, which means you're not— because the whole Shach says that the heter to look at her is because it's pas besaloi. So what happens if it's not pas besaloi? Maybe you're not allowed to look at her, huh? Oh, by that Shulchan speaks about. So what does he say? Oh, so you saw it inside. Okay, good, good. I didn't see that by the Shulchan. I want to tayne a chiddush. Yeah, I want to tayne a chiddush. Yeah. Listen. Asur lhistakel bah, af al pi sheneheneh briyah. The issur is, and this is where I got to the Rema, yitake looking with hana'ah. Yitake being mistakel. But to stam to look, that's normal. That has nothing to do with this halachah. Mimeila, that we're matir because pas besaloi. But to stam look at your wife, there's no issur even if there's no pas besaloi. Huh? No, but we have the Pri Megadim. Pri Megadim asers it. Ba'eishes ish, lefi tumah sheloi b'anah. Mekayem semagulos, right. Right. Yeah, because so what do you need the shrama then? I'm saying, koin... Oh, so that's what I'm saying. Listakel with hana'ah. Okay, that's what I'm telling you. Listakel means with hana'ah. Listakel b'teiros hana'ah, I think would be aser. I'm not sure how to learn the af al pi she'einah, yeah. But without the af al pi she'einah, it would be takadibo.