Hilchos Niddah: When Can Blood Be Attributed to a Makkah?

Transcript

You know what, let's start. But it's slow. It's grindy. It's ... today, a beisai. Interesting shaila. Kli b'makom. That's the big one. This, maybe it's a maka, maybe it's not. You have a bedikah, it's no good. Oy vey, what do we do? Ah, maybe it's a maka. Now, a lot of times, you go to a rav and he'll tell you, Ah, it's a maka. Don't worry about it. Sometimes he'll tell you a kesem and he'll say it. Sometimes he'll even say it on a bedikah. Chassidus, constantly by bedikahs, Ah, it's a maka. Many poskim, even by a bedikah. Now, normally, we're not toleh b'maka on a bedikah. By a kesem, it can be toleh b'maka after first three days. Talinan b'maka. Kesem is only derabbanan. A Torahisa also can be toleh b'maka. So we're going to discuss yes, when and why. Yes, when and why, okay? Yeah. So the question is when and why. When and why could you be toleh b'maka? Okay, so let's learn the when and the why. I'd like to begin with the Shulchan Aruch, siman kuf pei zayin, se'if hei, and the Rama. Let's do it. ... take it away. If there's a mark, yeah. If there's a makah in the same place, if the lady has a bruise or a scratch in the same place, תלינן בדם המכה. What? תלינן בדם מכה. Here, when she has a bruise or whatever, תלינן בדם מכה. Go ahead, continue. ואם דם המכה משונה מדם ראייתה, אין תולין בדם המכה. And if it's meshuneh, in other words, just based on the color, we're not going to say, ah. But if we know that she has one, then we could say it's different. Just to say it looks like—don't talk about what it looks like—but to say, oh, I know you have, and then we could say probably it's from that, that you could do. Go ahead. Is there any difference in terms of the thickness? It has to do, A, with color. So could we tell the difference in dam makah and dam niddah through thickness of the blood? It's not the thickness, it's the color. It's the color. I mean, that's in the times of Chazal. Today we don't use that. No, no, no. Okay, but that's the difference. The difference is color. It has to do with color. Dam makah is a certain color, and dam niddah is a different color. We'll soon see how in the Gemara, we'll talk about it. So let's see. So if it's just the difference in color, we're not toleh. But if it has to do with that we know for sure anyway there's a makah, then we can be toleh. Go ahead. This is the heart, the meat of the sugya. It's right here. The Mechaber is saying a very pashut thing, like you said. We don't change the dam's colors. You be toleh if, you know, you know for sure she has a makah. Ah, says the Rama, I'll go one step further. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna roll my—roll, what do they say, roll my hand, how does it go? No, no, when your guy rolls the dice. I'll give it a further, you know, I'll go one step further and I'll tell you, even beyond vest. What do you mean beyond vest? She's supposed to see dam niddah. Tell you a makah, no problem. Go ahead, continue. And this, she has to—she has a vest kavua. But אז יכולה לתלות שלא בשעת וסתה במכתה, אף על פי שאינה יודעת בוודאי שמכתה מוציאה דם. I'm saying, I meant that even if it's not—he's mechalek that you don't have to know for sure. I'm sorry, I meant to say that he says you don't have to know, but it's—it could be beyond vest. Okay, read it one more time. One more time. I didn't explain. ויכולה לתלות שלא בשעת וסתה במכתה, אף על פי שאינה יודעת בוודאי שמכתה מוציאה דם. And this did not happen. שלא בשעת וסת—you could be toleh, even if what? Even if she doesn't know for a fact that it was dam makah. So he's rolling the dice, as they say, which means he's going one step further, okay? So this is—isn't he explaining, though, ויכול זה, he's saying what the Mechaber really means is dafka if— Not so pashut, but as a matter of fact, his reasoning is very complicated. Go ahead, what is his reasoning? And he's more machmir. Says the Rama, no. He says you don't have to know that there's a makah.

She doesn't have a veses kavua. Right. Yeah, you know, I don't know. Let's read one more time, one more time. He says, ... יש לה וסת קבוע, ואז היא יכולה ... שלא בשעת וסתה, במכה. אף על פי שאינה יודעת בוודאי שמכה מוציאה דם. Okay, but if it's what? וכן, no, that's it. וכן אם אין לה וסת קבוע, והוא ספק אם הדם בא מן המקור או מן הצדדים. Okay, if she has a veses kavua, right, and it's what, a safek, right? Yes, what's the halacha? פלינן במכה, מקור ספק ספיקא. ספק ספקא. We are tolelim: מכה, because it's a safek. Go ahead. ספק מן הצדדים או מן המקור. ואם תמצא לומר מן המקור, שמא הוא מן המכה. Yeah. אבל אם ידוע שבא מן המקור, אף על פי שיש לה מכה במקור, אינה תולה במכה אם אין לה וסת קבוע, אלא אם כן יודעת בוודאי שמכתה מוציאה דם. Okay, well, he gives a reason. Like, ... ומקום מקום, ... או משלושים יום לשלושים יום, אין התולה במכתה, אם לא כן לא תטמא לעולם. Oh, in that case, ... The ... you don't have this whole halacha, because if not, you'll never walk, you'll never be metaher. So this is the Rama. Does everybody understand the mechaber and the Rama? Okay, you want to do it again? Let's do it again. Uktanim toleh bah, ... Uktanim is different, because ketanim is derabbanan, we ... So read it one more time to get all the different nuance, chilukim that he brings. Again, everybody read it one more time. Klor, let's go. Some wakes you up in the middle of the night, you'll be able to say it over. Go ahead. אם יש מכה באותו מקום. תולין בדם המכה, ואם דם המכה משונה מדם ראייתה. Now, just like before, I want to make a shtickel diyuk. I want to make a shtickel diyuk. What happens if she has a makah bamakor? Is that the same halacha? Just as botel makor? Oto makor is makor, no? I don't know. Really? I didn't know that. Not my... It's on the side. It's on the... Prasdor? Prasdor or down? From the prosdor and down. I don't know. Oto makom usually doesn't necessarily mean makor. So, agavurcha, it's interesting because I'll tell you one of the big shailas that people come up with: if a woman has a problem from the makor and it bleeds, so could we say it's a makah, or we say, no, that's called dam min hamakor? Let's say it's a makah, but it's still dam min hamakor, right? Okay. He said that. What? If it's that it's makah bamakor and blood comes out, you know for sure the makor itself מוציא דם, you could tell on it. You could be toleh. With which halacha is this? The Rama. The Rama, right? דם הבא מן המקור, ומן הצדדים תדין במכה, ... Go back. That's the Rama. I'm talking about the Mechaber. I know the Rama says that. I'm talking about the Mechaber. If she has a makah b'oso makom, what happens if she has a makah bamakor? Okay, that's like, that's agavurcha. Okay, but keep on going. So says the Rama, It's only talking about a lady that has a veses kavua, then she could assume that it came from a makah when it's not bshaas veses. אף על פי שאינה יודעת בודאי שמכתה מוציאה דם. Even though she's not 100% sure that it came through the makah. וכן, זאתו, אם אין לה וסת קבועה, she has no veset kavua, v'hu safek im adam ba min hamakor or from the tzadadin, and she's not sure if it came from the mekor or from the tzadadin, talinan v'yesum b'makom, we assume it came from a makom. Why? Mikoch safek. Safek min hatzadadin umin hamakor, v'im tinta lomar min hamakor, shema hu min hamakom. Oh, okay. What happens if the yoim vest? Yoim vest we don't say, right? Because im lo kein, lo titma l'olam, she'll never become tamei. Okay, can I just ask a question? When it says safek min hatzadadin umin hamakor, what does tzadadin mean? It means from the makor, no? What does it mean? The wall. So that is what? Blood that comes out mamash without a makor just comes out the tzad min hamakor. Yeah, continue. So he says, aval im yadua sheba min hamakor, if you know it came from the makor, af al pi sheyesh la maka b'makor, eina tola b'maka. Im ein la veset, ela im ken...

She knows for sure. So let's take a look now. What does it mean that she knows for sure? How does she know for sure? What, is she a doctor? She does inspections? How does she know what's going on over there? So let's look at the Shach, siman katan chavav. Ein ha'tovel b'makom. Let me just finish the Rama over here. U'mikam makom, b'sha'at vesta, o mi'shloshim yom l'shloshim yom, eina... Right, eina tovel b'makom. It's natural that it would come. Right, exactly. Shach, siman katan chavav. Says the Shach, af al pi sheyoda she'makatah motzia dam, im lo, kein lo teida ma'aleh olam, aval im margeshet, ata shedam zeh ba min hamakah, afilu b'sha'at vesta tehorah. But all she can say, I feel. That's an I feel. What should I tell you? I feel that it's coming from the makor. The halacha is that you can be somech even b'sha'at veses, according to the Shach. You ask the woman, tell me, you think maybe it's coming from the... You should know that, I don't know, some of you asked me these type of she'eilos. Some of you never asked me this particular one. I always ask, it's the first question I ask: what does she think? What does she feel? What does she think? How does she feel? Margeshes. There's something called margeshes. I don't know exactly what it means. This is different than the Rama. That's what the Rama said, she knows for sure it's from the makah. Right. But a yoledes, it's no good. Yoledes, we're saying we're not doing that, says the Shach. But if it's margeshes that it comes from the makah, I don't care that it's yoledes. It makes no difference. Does she have pain there, or that means that she felt that it came from there? I mean, I do know, but it's not clear in the Shach. The Shach just says if she feels. What do you mean by feels? How does she feel? She feels a... Is it cramping, or does that mean that it... It's a good question, right? Nice. That's what this shiur is all about. When do we say, Oh, she says it. What does she say? Was she a doctor? What does she know? She feels. How does she feel? She assumes? That's called feeling? Maybe. I don't know. Yeah? Gereshon, you're posek halachah. Yeah, but before that, what afal pi? This I didn't understand. Afal pi sheyoda shemakatah motzi adam, dim lo kin lo. What do you mean? There's two things. There's makah that does motzi dam, but you don't know for sure that this is that dam. Says the Shach, in case she can come and say, I do feel it's that dam, then we can say it's... There's different levels. There's one level is that it's possible because she has a makah. Then there's something called a makah that is a motzi dam, and then there's something called margeshes. So if she's not margeshes, but she knows she has a makah, what are you going to... It's not the yom veses. It's not going to be good for you. Shelo b'shaas veses will be good, but b'shaas veses it's not going to help you. Says the Shach, unless she can come and say margeshes, she feels that it comes from where? It comes from the makah. Okay. What happens if she doesn't feel that it comes from the makah? Because that's very, very difficult to feel. No? The Shach wants something which is almost superhuman, that she should feel that it's coming from the makah. I don't know about pain. We haven't discussed. Did he say pain? There's one word in the shakla called pain. No good. No, there's no, there's no, it doesn't work. So now he has to get the regular thing. Not gonna happen, huh? Huh? He doesn't want to get the machine again. Those things are very expensive. The machine. Chazdesh. Next. Bekitzer. So margesh, shkoiach elyesa. Margesh. So what's the taich of margeshes? So I'm asking a different question. Would it be enough that she just doesn't feel it's coming from the makor? There's such a thing called hargasha, right? The hargasha is—huh? Hargasha is that she feels that it's from the makor, right? What happens if she didn't feel it's coming from the makor? Is that good enough to come and say, Oh, she has a maka, she didn't feel that it's coming from the makor, and then it's coming from the makor? What are you trying to like it? The shach is mechadesh that you could ask the lady, Do you feel? Do you feel? And she says, No, I feel that it came from the makor. Very good.

How could you feel? It's almost impossible to feel, right? Unless you mean not feel-feel; you mean you feel, you think, you margish. Why? She knows what it feels like when she has a nidah all the time, and now she feels like it's a different sensation. That's a different hargashah. See, that's what I'm talking about, that you don't feel it's the min hamakor. You just don't feel the other thing. That's a sign. See, the different, that's called knowing the... From the Shach, it's not enough. Shach is mashma you need kum v'aseh. There is a type of a feeling. You need kum v'aseh. Why? You need kum v'aseh, right? According to the—well, soon see—l'choira you could clear that maybe it's good enough just that it doesn't feel min hamakor. So there's a gevaldige נודע ביהודה. The Noda BiYehuda, Yoreh Deah, kama, says that as long as she's not margish that it's min hamakor, that's already called margeshes from the makor. Let me ask you a different shailah. According to the Shach, does it have to be margeshes, physical margeshes? Or margeshes can mean she feels thinking that way. And how does she think that way? You know, a woman, sometimes when she has her period, it's a flow. And this is not that. It's small tipim. It's not much. Symptoms. What's wrong if the actual thing, if it's only a little bit, could we say that it's min hamakor? Okay? Is that what the Shach means? You don't like it. Okay. There's an interesting Chazon Ish. Chazon Ish. In nidah siman pei aleph, Nirah Maskil kasav b'Gilyon, says, you know, it doesn't make a difference to me. Let it be an entire flow. Let it be mamish what it normally looks like. If the shach says margeshes, if it's margeshes, that's good enough. I don't care if it looks like a period, it sounds like a period. If she's margeshes, margeshes has a nish. Meaning, even if it's a whole flow, but she thinks the makor, it's still a makor? That's right. Her hargashah. Wow. That's a Chazon Ish's chiluk. You know what his raya is? Is everybody okay over there? Everything all right? Yeah. I love to learn with... I wish I could see. What does margeshes mean? Physical, or margeshes means she assumes? What does the word margeshes mean? Intellectual. So we're claiming maybe it means she looks and she sees it doesn't look like a period, it looks like a makor, it's motzi a certain amount of dam. But what is it? It's not a period. Chazon Ish says— Why would you use language of margeshes again? You're right, that's what the Chazon Ish says. So the Chazon Ish says a chiddush, that even if she has a regular flow of blood, you're allowed to be, to be somech and say that it's a makor if she's margeshes. Says the Chazon Ish, how do I know this? Maybe not. If it looks like a period and it sounds like a period, maybe it is a period. Says the Chazon Ish, I was medayek from the words, d'im lo kein... Because if not, then she'll never be tamei. What do you mean she'll never be tamei? It depends. If it looks like a maka, sometimes she could be not tamei. The teretz is that it looks like a period, and still, if we're going to be matir this din in the Rama, then she'll never become tamei. It's very nice, beautiful diyuk. Chazon Ish. That's the beauty of the Chazon Ish, yeah? Doesn't depend on the tzurah, because you see that even because it depends on the tzurah of the thing, so then it's not l'olam tamei. What do you mean it's not l'olam? You'll be matir her. If it's a lot, we say that this din in the Rama doesn't apply because it's obviously not the maka, so then what do you mean it would become l'olam tamei? Many poskim argued—what? Many poskim argued with this Chazon Ish, and they say that if it looks like a period, then it's a period, and if it doesn't look like a period, then you could be toleh b'maka. Ad rabah, work it the other way. If it looks like a period, then you can't be toleh b'maka. If it doesn't look like a period, then you could be toleh b'maka. That itself is the—no, the Chazon Ish is just talking the other way. It could look like a period here.

And we can still say if margeshes maka. What about the other way around? It doesn't look like a period. Could we use that as a raya that it's maka, not a period? So many poskim want to be matir it, and they say, What's the shiur? What's the shiur? Everybody's going to come and say, you know what, it's not my flow. So they use a—there's a famous rule of thumb: if it fills up the entire id, the entire cloth, poskim say that, then we'll say it looks like a— If it doesn't fill it up, and she knows she has a maka, even b'ayin peh, she can come and say that it's a maka. She has a problem. This poor lady has a very big problem. It's—what do you want her to do? What's she supposed to do? She has to make a bedikah. She makes a bedikah, it comes out bleeding, but you don't know what it's from. So the poskim say, you know what, we'll say, even if it looks like a watchu call, like a period, the Chazon Ish wants to say she can say margeshes, but that doesn't exclude that if it doesn't look like a period, that we have to say that it's not negea to what it looks. In other words, the looking like a period is not going to ruin it, but the looking like a maka will definitely help. The shiur would be if it fills up the entire id. That's the chiddush. The chiddush is taluyim b'maka d'oraisa. That's what I was trying to tell you. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. Pashut taluyim b'maka is always where, is always by... But here's a mighty chiddush: when you know that there's a kesem, and you know that the kesem is a ma'otzi dam. Now the question is, if you don't know—I'm sorry, that it's a makom otzi dam—but you don't know that this dam is from this makor, so we could use ra'ayos. What are ra'ayos? So one of the ra'ayos is margeshes. So too, say the poskim, one of the ra'ayos is what it looks like. It's a gevaldige chiddush. It's a gevaldige chiddush. Ah, now, what happens if there's no hargashah מצד this is this, but there's a hargashah, a scraping pain from the— that's the question. What does the margeshes mean? Did the Shach mean margeshes mamash? Margeshes means she has to somehow feel that the blood mamash came from the scab, that you're feeling and bleeding like the mekor? Or margeshes could mean that she felt something wrong when you did it. Circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence. Beautiful word, circumstantial evidence. Rav Chatzkel wrote that's what it is. The din is that in case there's side—there's side things, yeah? It means like itching something. What? Saying hargashah like itching or hurting? Hurting. Itching and hurting. So it's not the margeshes. Yeah, it should hurt. That's why, and if anybody asks me this, I always say it should hurt. The rabbanan are going to ask a few questions. What does she think? Then the Rav is going to have to answer, because it's all a question of how to translate the word markeshes. Now let me tell you of one more chiddush, and you'll see how it works out. In siman kuf pei ches, se'if aleph, right, it talks about the different maris hadam. The Shach says this is not in today's times. Today's times, yeah, we don't follow the maris hadam because we don't know it, right? That's the famous Shach. Nishtanu ha'doros, we don't know. We forgot it. We lost the mesorah. The Ran in siman mem tes in the teshuvos says, What happens if it looks so weird, it doesn't look like—it's not a question of different dam. It looks damak, it looks different. To come and say the chilukim in the dam, what's dam tor, dam tamei, that's the Shach. But what about the next step? It looks like damak. It's one step further. You understand the difference? The Shach talks about what? How do you know that? Siman kol. Dam tamei, dam tor. How do you know that? Let's say you know. It looks completely different. In other words, this woman always has a certain color, and then all of a sudden, it's not what she normally has. Circumstantial evidence. So the Ran says it's mutar. The Rachar Zerua—everybody quotes the Rachar Zerua, siman kuf yud beis—it's not, it's asur, because we don't follow damim, so we don't follow even damak. Ma re'eh, in siman kuf ayin.

Moses is writing a chiddush, that if there's circumstantial evidence, plus the fact that the blood looks different, then we could come and say the blood is dam makah. So he comes out with a chiddush, you hear? This could be what the Shach is saying. It's zeh v'zeh gorem. What do you mean, zeh v'zeh gorem? It's not the circumstantial evidence, you hear, and it's not the color, but the circumstantial evidence will let us say that the color is dam makah. So then it's a chumra; it will come out that the circumstantial evidence is not enough, but you need also that the color, the color. What usually the poskim say is a little bit the color, a little bit, they'll say. Whenever they say the color looks a little different, and then they're going to say these words, and also the shape and form, and that the woman felt circumstantial evidence, you hear? That's what the Rema says with the word. Where it came from, he'll tell you. He'll tell you, did she feel pain? You haven't noticed those are the questions. And the third, it's not. And the word is you're allowed to not pasken like this Shach with circumstantial evidence. Shach says we don't follow with the chiluk in maris hadamim. So even in maris hadamim, the taich is on its own, but with circumstantial evidence we could pasken maris hadamim.