Hilchos Kesamim: Blood Found After Wiping, Toilet Paper, Hargashah, and Tumah

Transcript

Today we're going to discuss a very practical, common shaila. It's for pilchas, not... So, Meir, it's for pilchas. This, take one and the other one leave for pilchas. Today we're going to discuss a very common, practical shaila, comes up all the time. That is, a woman, a woman wipes after hatalas mei raglayim. She finds on her toilet, on her tissue paper, she finds a kesem. She finds a kesem. What's the halacha? So those that ever asked such a shaila, which I'm sure you did because it comes up all the time, probably heard that if she made a bedikas pnim, so we have to asser it, even if it's a drop, because it's a safek hargasha like a bedika. If it's just an external wipe, then we could come and say, Oh, it's only a kesem, and therefore it depends how big. Toilet paper is davka she'eino mekabel tumah, which is a whole shaila in halacha we'll discuss: is it or isn't it? We're talking about the wipe. Mei raglayim is a whole different shaila. Kincha atzmah, if she wipes herself, very common. But if it's inside bedika, if it's inside, meaning she cleans, but this toilet paper doesn't make a difference because it's not a kesem, it's a hargasha. It's a safek hargasha. It doesn't make a difference. It's only because it might be a derabbanan, and because it's only derabbanan, so meikel on... Shier, davar she'eino mekabel tumah. This is probably what you heard. Now let me discuss. This is probably what you heard. This is what the Rabbanim usually pasken. Everybody paskens like this, more or less. Let me tell you the issues involved, and I'll show you why not everyone paskens that way. In other words, if you would go to Dayanim in Eretz Yisrael, you probably would not get such an answer. It's more here, it's more maybe Rav Ovadia, but in Eretz Yisrael there are pockets of dayanim that don't matir. They're not matir. Rav Elyashiv is not matir. Many, many are not matir it. Meaning, if the color is good, fine, but if the color is no good, you can't come and say it doesn't have the shier, or it's on davar she'eino mekabel tumah, or it's on bigdei tzivonim, it's colored toilet paper. It's not going to help you. What is it based on? So let me tell you what it's based on. There's a halacha, it's in the beginning, if it's nimtza kesem al besarah, right? She sees dam, or it's al besarah, or it's found not in the flow, but actually she finds it on her own flesh, halacha is it's tamei. Zovya bebsarah. This is called still bebsarah. No? No. Why? Anything on her flesh is a why? Because you know it's vadai yatza migufah. We're aware it's on her skin, then where else did it come from? It didn't come externally, it's on her, right? So therefore it's nogea. You want to read? Read it. But why can't you say it was one of those bugs that was on her skin? That's not bebsarah, meaning that since, I mean, first of all, they wear clothing. I mean, there's no reason it wouldn't be through. It wouldn't be clean all over and then just on her be dirty. I mean, she find that advice. Also, again, that's depending where. But see, the where we're talking about over there. You have it, you have the halacha Shulchan Aruch. It's the beginning, right? We're in the beginning. B'psara. Go ahead, no. Okay, continue. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Go ahead, yeah.

Go ahead. Let's see the Shach on this. Yeah. V'shneihem b'safek, go ahead, nu. Yes. It says actually, actually, ... b'safek. Yes, it says. We have three taz, yeah? Yeah, yeah. It says, V'fi shene'emar b'safek, ad shetargish b'safek פירושו, אפילו אם היא רואה, אפילו אם היא רואה טהורה, כמה שלא הרגישה, כך כתב הרמ"א. Right. Right. ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh. Okay, so let me explain to you what this is. The Taz says, ... sfeik sfeika. ... ספק אם יצא ממנה, אם מעלמא. ... אין מולבן המקור. So the Chachamim גזרו. That's why it's Chachamim גזרו. Let's say there's no sfeik sfeika. It's vadai ממנה. Vadai mimena is tamei. Yeah? Vadai mimena is tamei. Understand? The whole safek is that we don't know it's from her. And if, right, because it's safek sfeika. And even if it's, maybe it's dam in the makor, so it's not a safek d'oraisa; it's a safek sfeika, therefore gazru Rabbanan, that if we have to machmir. As a ketem or as... Whatever you're saying, whatever you're machmir, it's only midrabbanan that you're machmir. That's not halachah ketem. The halachah of ketem is, where there's a safek sfeika, maybe it's from her, maybe it's not from her, and even if it is from her, maybe it's from the makor. But if it's only one safek, safek d'oraisa, no. That because you have safek sfeika, so therefore chachamim gazru. And what are the... But that's chachamim gazru. That's what he's trying to say. That's the chachamim gazru. This is only when it's a safek if it's mimena. Still, chachamim gazru because rov dam, because the rov tells me how to pasken. Rov is min hamakor, so it takes away the safek sfeika. But if you know for sure it's vadai yatza migufah, and we spoke about this all the time, if it's vadai yatza migufah, in other words, it's b'psara v'osah makom, then you don't have the klalim of ketem. Where is the chap? The chap over here is that it was b'psara. It was, and you took it away with a kinuach, by wiping it off. So what happened? Do we look at it as b'psara, v'osah makom b'psara, vadai yatza migufah b'psara, or do we look at it like a ketem? That's the big shailah l'maaseh, okay? So again, let me start again. Let me explain to you again the issue involved. The issue involved is like this: ketem works that we don't know what it is. It could be me'alma, so therefore machulas, tolin b'machulas. But if it's there, it's not toleh machlus. You know it's from her. The other thing is maybe it was without hagashah, maybe it's not without hagashah, right? That's not the case of kesem. The question is, if it would be b'psar, what would be the halachah? Then it would be a safek d'oraisa. She went and she wiped it, so she took it away from where it was, and she made it into a kesem. So what happens in such a case? That becomes a shaylah. And like I say to you, the nafka mina would be by that talas meraglayim. Even if she wipes external, it's there, but she wiped it away. So what happens? So like I told you, some people say that, listen, right now it's on a beged. Whatever's on a beged, it's a kesem. Yesh omrim.

Many, many ... listen, you made it into a kesem. Who made it into? You made it. It is a kesem. If it's found, if it's found here, it's found on a beged, fine. But if it was found on her, and he, she went and wiped it off, and she made it into a ketem, it's different. You found it? It says, read it, read it, read it. Go ahead, but that's the chiddush. That's what I'm trying to tell you. That's the chiddush that we're learning here. But if he talked about bebsarah, that's when it's on a beged. What happened when it's bebsarah? Wait, l'maaseh, any ketem, when you look at it practically, any ketem is really on her basar, which just happens to go on your underwear. So even though it wasn't beadayin, but still it really came from—it was on her basar a second ago, and the beged went through to the— Where was it, motza? Where did you find it? Okay, but l'maaseh, we know it came from her basar. I mean, there's no doubt about that. That's the machlokes. I'm going to explain to you the lomdus of the machlokes soon, but that is the machlokes. I know. Okay, and who said that? I told you, you'll speak to most poskim, they'll tell you, eh, doesn't make a difference where, what, when it happened. Every ketem—doesn't, it's all ... it's all ... But there's a whole slew of Acharonim that say, wait a minute, you made it into a—it's not a kesem. A kesem is when you found it on the beged. Now, where you took something which was aser, you made it mutar. You can't make something aser, make it mutar by wiping it. Wiping is not a method of making something which is aser mutar. Okay. Yeish omrim. Some people want to say, so let's do some middle ground. Let's do some middle, some pshara. You ready? We're going to go do some pshara. Yeish omrim, it all depends if she wiped knowingly or she wiped unknowingly. If she didn't know that anything was there and she wiped it, it's a true—it was on her basar first, true, it was on her basar first, but still kesem, because she found it only after it was on the thing. Let's say she wipes it because she feels something. She says that something—she's choshesh there might be blood. Ah, no, no, not ragasha. We're not talking about ragasha. She's choshesh, and she wipes. That's not going to help you, because you went and wiped what was there. A person wipe away an issur d'oraisa? What do you mean? Either it is or it isn't. Huh? She did a bedikah? Yeah, he's trying to say bedikah. Let's say she made a little shape, show the rav. He says she wiped enough. Maybe she— The question is, let's say right now a piece of toilet paper that she wiped is a kesem. So some want to say, what's the difference? It's a kesem. Others want to say, what do you mean? She made it into a kesem. It's not matzui b'kedeh. I always understood—this is what I heard like two years ago—that any time you find it on her body, even if it's separated, the blood, you combine it to see if there's— We're going to get to that. That's exactly what we're getting to. That's one of the nafka minas. That's exactly what we're going to get to. The question is, even if we're meikel— Even if we're meikel on the kinuach becomes a kesem, should be given the din of basar l'gabei tipin tipin, that we're combining it. R' Moshe holds like that. R' Moshe, you're stealing the end of the shiur now and the beginning, so let me get to that, okay? What I'm asking is, what if she didn't wipe enough? She didn't wipe herself completely, now she has less than a kesem. That's the whole point. If you hold it's a kesem, it's fine. If you hold it's a— when you say b'yadayim, she didn't— she wiped herself, but not completely. Now she has less than a kesem. She made herself— she mach herself by wiping not enough. That's the point. That's the question that we're asking. I'm asking if there is kesem or if there isn't kesem. You're saying is what happens if she made a kesem which is less by her wiping, which means there's more left over there, which means there's more left over there. No, even better. She has right now blood over here, here, and here. She wipes on the same spot the tissue each location. I just said that. That's R' Moshe. I just said that. Wait a minute. That's R' Moshe. He's asking a different question. He's asking, let's say you wipe, right? So let's say she only wiped a little bit. So what do you say, oh, kesem? Yeah, but the teretz is, so then there's more left on the other— there's more left over.

Then she's asking for that. That it's also aser. Forget about... She should check. And if she didn't wipe properly, then... she should check. Should check. If she's choshesh there's more blood there, then she's aser. Can't make aser into a kesem. Masha'enkein, lo yehei mutar because you wiped yourself. So that case, then she does it again, it combines, or it's only one? That's the question. That's Reb Moshe. Moshe is very stringent with that. Moshe wants to... Okay, we'll say it now. There's a whole halacha al psarah, tipin tipin al mitztaref. The whole din of not mitztaref by kesamim is only by kesem. Mitztaref. It's a... I don't know, Moshe was so big, you know, I can't explain. You know the halacha—yeah, it's a chumra, tremendous chumra, because I want to hear these psakim that it's a kesem, but he doesn't want to give it the kula of tipin tipin. ... al besarah. Yeah, that's the Shulchan Aruch Harav. That's where it comes from. There's a whole... Right, so the chiddush of Reb Moshe is to use that chumra on the kesem that you made, but it's a kesem, which means I'm not good on the shiur, but I'm not going to give you the kula that it's not mitztaref. It would be mitztaref as if it would be besarah. It's a chiddush. I don't know how you learn that. It's Reb Moshe's teshuvah. The halacha is that you can be mitztaref tipin tipin al besarah. Reb Moshe comes along and says, you know what? What happens if you wipe? You took what was al besarah, you put it on a piece of paper, which is—you're right, most poskim say it's not a problem. A lot say that it is a problem, right? So Reb Moshe is in the middle ground. Reb Moshe wants to say it's a problem, not 100%, which means we'll have a din of a kesem, which needs a shiur. But now it could be mitztaref tipin tipin. Like as if it would have been on the basar. Again, if it has the shiur, fine. If it doesn't have the shiur, it's kosher. But what is called having the shiur, we're going to give it what's called having the shiur on the basar. Right. But I'm saying the woman can always, like, this could be eino mutar asur, which means if there is a tiruv of kesem, the woman can always mess up in things. If she wipes in the same location each time, so the towel is spread out in the tissue, it didn't look like one little kesem, but in reality, she had more than one. She had different tipin. Right. So what should I tell her? I'm saying that that would be— Yeah, it comes out very chiddush, yeah, that it depends on how she wipes. I want to discuss, but we're going to get to it. There's something called hispashtus hakesem. All the poskim talk about it. When you make it hispashtus by kedushin, hispashtus by kesem, and whatever you wipe, actually it comes originally smaller, and it becomes bigger because it starts to— it starts to move. That's why if you notice, sometimes you'll see that the outskirts are less, are a little bit less, more watery, because the density stays and the liquidity part starts to— Yeah, a bit water over here. You put a tissue on it, it starts spreading. It starts spreading. So the question: should we go after when it hits, or we should go after it at the end? That's another big shaila. And the shaila becomes, should we use that by a kesem, which is al tzara that you made on the tissue paper? Because when it's on the tissue paper, so the pshat is that's what the kesem is. But this is not a real kesem. This is a real kesem which started al tzara. Big shaila. The tissue paper, how it spreads. What happens is, it touches the paper smaller. It wasn't tipin-tipin. Not tipin-tipin, once, and then there's something called hispashtus, and it starts small, and then you start noticing it becomes like liquid towards around. You'll see density, and then you'll see liquidity. Okay, so let's go through this again one more time. So I get... Basar was... Nah, no. He's out cold. Don't worry. Nachama, one more time. You ready? Ready. Huh? Come, let's go. Okay, come. Here. The sugya today is when you wipe after hatolas mei raglayim. So there was blood, and you wiped it onto a tissue. You wiped it onto a tissue. Most poskim are going to say it's a kesem that's on the tissue. That's the bottom line. It's on the tissue. Then there's a whole group of...

Poiskim that want to clear and say, no, no, no. This is an al psara type of kesem. And an al psara type of kesem, it's vadai yotzei migufa; it's a de'oraisa, it's not derabbanan. Only by kesem al begadim. Only by kesem al begadim we could declare maybe it's not yotzei migufa, and so on and so forth. When it's boiso makom al psara, what's to declare? Why? Right? Declare, maybe you made the kesem. Maybe the halacha is, matza — you found it on the... it splashed onto the thing, and then you noticed it. But if it was there before and you made it into a kesem, even if you're going to say that that doesn't really make a difference, even if you made it, it doesn't really make a difference. But maybe this has to do with when I knew about it. If I knew about it, meaning I felt there was something there and then I cleaned, then the pshat is I mamash took what's a psardike kesem and I made it into a kinuchdike kesem. But if I didn't know and it happens to be that I wiped — true, I made it — yeah, but I didn't know about it, so it's also like a matza. When I found it, when I knew about it, it was where it was. That's when you found out. Those, you see, these are two chakiros, one within another. The first chakirah is, do we look l'maaseh here, it's on the paper, have a nice day, or do we say no, but it was al psara? Afeilu im neimar that it's you made it to listen, okay, but maybe it all depends on where I noticed it. Where do I — when did it become yedia? When did I know it? Did I know before and then I wiped, or even if I... True was on the bus, or I made it, but I didn't know. To left, so that's still called what? Motza al. Okay. So the Velt always uses the Shulchan Aruch HaRav. Let me tell you what Shulchan Aruch HaRav they're referring to. Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Kuntris Acharon, kuf pei gimel, se'if katan beis, divrei hamaschil v'hinei mai. See, even Rav Boruch speaks out, Shulchan Aruch HaRav. This is where it all comes from. He's the one that's mechalek between bedikas pnim and bedikas chutz. Go ahead. Kuf pei gimel, Kuntris Acharon, kuf pei gimel, se'if katan beis, divrei hamaschil v'hinei mai. Let me tell you, when I get finished with you guys, you're gonna know Hilchos Niddah in your sleep. You're gonna chazer it and chazer it and chazer it. I want to tell you that the Eibishter did something for me today to wake me up and to give this message to you. You know, in my mind I planned the yeshiva like a month or two ahead, and I'm trying to—I'm thinking to myself, how am I gonna get you to l'maaseh cover Hilchos Niddah? How do you do this? Go to shiurim and more shiurim and again shiurim, and it's years of work. What happened was I went back and forth to Queens and back four times today. I went to Queens, okay, four times, okay? Three times. So far it's three times, so far three times, okay. I woke up at the end of the third trip back and forth. Hey, I just made—I didn't realize I made the trip. I didn't even pay attention one second throughout the whole thing that I'm driving, and I'm going like this into Borough. I got so used to it that it's part of my— I wake up and I go in the car, I go in the Interboro. My morning is every morning, I einte baruch. My afternoon is interbaruch, interbaruch, interbaruch. Frequent flyer miles, you hear? I said to myself, the Eibishter wants me to realize that that's the way to know halacha. You know, halacha is, it should be shagur b'ficha. Lashon gemara, you know the lashon gemara is? A person will wake you up in the middle of the night, you'll be able to answer. What does that mean? It means that I'm not thinking. It's like the same thing. Wait, you're driving. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm driving. That's what it means. Multiply. You're gonna do it again and again and again and again and again and again. We'll keep on doing it until we get it. That's it. Okay, so this is the shaila. You read the Shulchan Aruch Harav. Read it, nu. Nu? Yeah. Right, they took it out from the Sefer...

Because pnim, it's a safek d'rabbanan. It can't be because of a safek aggadta. Yeah, go ahead. Then any time, every time you make a bedikah, all the eidim, all the things should be davar she'eino mekabel tumah, and there's no problem. All the bedikos are all mutar. But he's trying to say that, so he's mechadesh. There is a shitah that holds— Yes, and he attacks it. No, he's attacking it. He's saying, please don't say that, because then otherwise the whole thing doesn't— Yeah, we did this. I told you a few times already, if you remember. Go ahead, yeah. We spoke about what's mekabel tumah. We brought a raya from the Sefer Geffen, the Rambam. Okay, go ahead, yeah. Go, go, go, go, go. He kids with all the bedikos. He's saying a pashut zach. Bedikas pnim is— the bedikas pnim is d'Oraisa. The implication is that if it's not a bedikas pnim like the bedikos we make, then it's not d'Oraisa, because according to this, then it shouldn't make— why would you talk about bedikas pnim? It's not— it's irrelevant. Coming to talk about a bedikas pnim that's a safek argesha, forget about safek— even for not safek argesha. Who needs that? Any time when it's al pesara, the minute you wipe it, you made the kesem. Every time you make a bedikah, what's the problem? Maybe while you made the bedikah she felt. Who cares? You didn't feel it. Right? Just the fact that you made the kesem, that's your ruling the kesem. So, the daik, the daik. You see, obviously, that if you made the kesem, isn't the problem. What's the problem? Maybe there was hagasha. But if you made the kesem, it still could be derabbanan. Now take a look at Shulchan Aruch HaRav, siman kuf tzadik, se'if ayin. Is that the one he quotes? Which one does he quote? It has a din of all halachos of ketamim. What by a wipe? He talks about a wipe, right? If you give a kesem, whatever you give a wipe, it has all the halachos of what? Of ketam. Okay. Now, Reb Moshe. Reb Moshe discusses, is toilet paper a davar hamekabel tumah? Is toilet paper not a davar hamekabel tumah? Then Reb Moshe says, I have a problem that even if it's a davar she'eino mekabel tumah, but since you're wiping it with your hand, maybe you'll have a problem of davar hamekabel tumah. Why? Clairs, clairs. Anything you're holding becomes like your hand, and therefore there should be a problem. I don't understand why. That's interesting. Why? Why? What's your shaila? Why is it mekabel tumah? Your hand is—you're a person, a davar hamekabel tumah. Man is mekabel tumah. So this is an extension, because it's like a fork. A fork becomes, in Hilchos Shabbos, a fork. Reb Moshe doesn't hold that. He has a chakirah. Again, you know what it is? This is from years ago. I must have—fifteen years ago I saw this, okay? So I don't remember the exact words. Let's look it up. I'm here. I don't have a way to run. So he's saying that—take Reb Moshe, Yoreh Deah chelek daled, siman yud-zayin, os tez-vav. He clarifies that maybe... The toilet paper should become mekabel tumah, even if the niyar sheba, even the paper sheba, which is the whole shaylah. They're saying that if you don't have niyar, you're gonna wipe with your hand? He's saying that since the point is that you don't want to wipe with your hand, see, it's like you put on a glove. Gloves are an extension of a hand. Anything that you hold in your hand and use as a utensil in your hand becomes an extension of your hand. That's why borer b'yad, you know, you're only allowed to do borer with your hand; you're not allowed to do borer with a kli. A fork is not called a what? A kli. It's called your hand. Okay, keep on reading. So trying to get to the point. I went through it once, but yeah. Oh, a person. Person, keep on reading. ...benimtza ketem hadavar she'eino mekabel tumah, hamunach hadavar mekabel tumah. ...kivan shenitma hadavar mekabel tumah mishum hasa... ...temeah ha'isha mishum ketem. ...ve'af shedavar ze tamua.

אה, במסה, yeah. מקום נוגע לדבר שאינו מקבל טומאה ביד אדם. או... זה ביד אדם, it's an extension of the hand of the person, right? שאם קינחה האישה עצמה בנייר שאינו מקבל טומאה, דאולי מחמת טומאת מסד ייקבע האישה נחשבת כמונחת על דבר המקבל טומאה. לחידוש זה יש... אוקיי. אבל, he says, ראה בשולחן ערוך, בחידוש האחרון, סימן קפג, שמוכח דאף אם האישה אוחזת בידה טהורה משום כתם, ורק בדיקת מעה, שלכן מסתפק איך להורות בזה. Tell me, what did you just say? What's the case? Only by bedikah it's a problem. If she's just holding in her hand, so you see clearly the wipe is — R' Moshe takes on the wiping. I told you, רוב פוסקים say that the wiping is not a problem, רוב פוסקים. The only thing is, R' Moshe is going to say a very big chiddush. Now, I want you to take a look at אות י״ד. Yeah, go back. מה שאין כן בניירות הדקות מאוד שנעשו לקנח בבית הכיסא, tissues, אם יש לו דין כתם. So he says, בניירות דקות מאוד שנעשו במדינתנו לקנח בבית הכיסא, ואף הנייר שקוראים טישוס, יש להקל, גם להורות למעשה, שאין על זה דין כתמים. והדל ענין כתמים, אף בחתם סופר חלק ב' סימן פא, בתשובה, שהנייר אף שנאסר לצמר ומכנסיים, לא מקבל דין טומאה, רק... אבל מה שכתב שלענין בדיקת עד, שאינו בדוק, אינו רוצה להקל. נראה דהוא דווקא בנייר עב, שלא נבטל מקודש משי, לא בניירות דקות, במקוםנו שנבטל קודש משי. In other words, once you use the av, you can still use it; this one you can't. וגם לא נעשו מצמר ופשתים, שבהם יש להקל אף בזה בפשיטות. ואף החכם אחד, גריסא שלנו, שנייר הוא דבר המקבל טומאה, מסתבר שיודה בנייר דק שלנו, שאינו מקבל טומאה, לא רק אלו שנעשים מעץ ועשבים וכדומה, אלא אם נעשה מצמר ופשתים, נמי אין זה דבר המקבל טומאה, שהרי לא נעשה את השמיש המתקיים, וגם לא ראוי לדבר מתקיים, ולכן ודאי יש להקל. Therefore, it doesn't have a... even though the hand is on it. But that's the two shitos. That's what I'm trying to tell you. But what is he talking about? He's talking about a bedikah. Problem is only by—I'm saying the problem, I'm saying by a wipe, it has din of a kesem. But when a woman holds a tissue and she wipes, then— That's what I'm saying. But a woman holds—being that her hand is... No, I'm saying, but do you see that he holds that has din kesem? He doesn't hold it's d'Oraisa. You see clearly that he paskens like the shita that it becomes a kesem. Only problem is, it's not davar she'eino mekabel tumah. The Torah says it's called a davar she'eino mekabel tumah. Now listen to an unbelievable chiddush, you ready? Which halachos, which halachos of kesem do we give? Which halachos of kesem do we give? There's two: davar she'eino mekabel tumah. So Rav Moshe talked about davar she'eino mekabel tumah. What about bigdei tzivonim? Because we give you that heter also. ... and you made the kesem, can we give you that heter? It depends which kind of tissue you have, the color of tissue. Now I'm asking you. I'm asking on color. Let's say she wiped with a cloth, but it's bigdei tzivonim. Do we give the heter also for that as well? Why not? Pashut, there shouldn't be a nafka mina, right? No, why shouldn't there be a nafka mina? If he's telling you that's the only reason why— Sometimes there shouldn't be a nafka mina. What I said, there shouldn't— Yes, there shouldn't be a nafka mina if you hold it's a kesem. No, I'm saying there should be a nafka mina. How can there be a nafka mina? We give you all the heterim of kesem. He only gave you a heter kesem only because it's davar she'eino mekabel tumah. But it's not davar mekabel tumah. Right, but I'm asking, what are the conditions? But one of the conditions of kesem is bigdei tzivonim. I know that one of the conditions, but the only reason why he gave me the kula by tissue is because— No, no, you missed the point. Yeah, friend, friend, friend, you're getting completely off track here. Since it's eina miskayem, since it's not a davar mekabel tumah, it's not called a davar mekabel tumah. And therefore it doesn't have the problem of a... But remoishes tumah... Okay, but the coloring has nothing to do with the... Color is a different shaylah. Can I give you another... So l'choira there should be no reason to be machmir. It's the same thing. If it's kesem, then it has the heter of davar she'eino mekabel tumah, and what דין should have the heter of tzivonim, the colors. I want to tell you a tremendous chiddush, tremendous, tremendous chiddush. In Chut Shani, my relative brings down that there's a chiluk: color...

No problem if she wipes on a colored paper and she doesn't, and it's a kesem. But on a davar she'eino mekabel tumah, she's not going to have the heter. There's a chiluk between bigdei tzivonim, yeah? Remember when I saw it, I was like, What? I'm saying, if you hold it's a kesem, then it's a kesem. And then repeat it again, please. Yeah. I'm repeating as follows. We just said that if you wipe externally, it's a kesem. And Reb Moshe says, toilet paper, it's a davar she'eino mekabel tumah, and we're going to give you the heter of a davar she'eino mekabel tumah. So it means it's a kesem. What happens, what happens if it's not on a davar she'eino mekabel tumah? Different issue. It's on a bigdei tzivonim. Which is also mutar when it's a kesem, and it's aser when it's d'Oraisa. Cheres, it's the same thing. And if you hold by bigdei tzivonim it's good, then what דין it's good for? It's the same halacha. Once a kesem, it's a kesem. Comes along Rav Karelitz and he says, No. Bigdei tzivonim has a din kesem. Davar she'eino mekabel tumah, it's not going to help you. Even though it's a kesem, but it's not going to help. So if it's a white tissue, according to him, it's no. If it's colored tissue, according to the Mishnah Berurah, that's right. According to the Mishnah, anyway not a problem. Both ways he holds not a problem. Davar she'eino mekabel tumah. So on the bottom he explains, he has like a biur halacha explains. You know what the reason is? By bigdei tzivonim, bichlal don't see it. You just don't see it. Kesef, it's awesome, but you don't see it. Ma she'ein kein, b'yom shemekabel tumah, it's a heter. Who says we'll give you the heter when it was vadai yatza mi'gufa and it's on you? You made it into a kesef. That's not a heter. It bothered me for a very long time. I also saw that Rav Moshe learns that teipel, the heter of teipel, which is given to kesef and not al basar, won't be given to this kesef that you made. Again, ma nafshach, if it's a kesef, it's a kesef. A third nafkamina, I told you, is pashtus, the spreading, it's a cloud by pedikas that they spread. And therefore we could go and assume, ikar—I'm sorry—by ksamim that we go after the main, and whatever is around is really irrelevant. How are you going to come? When you get trained, you're trained to know what's spreaded later and what's the beginning. Or, just a simple example: you saw it once, and then a half hour you saw it later and it's more, so you go after what you saw in the first place, okay? So this also is a shaylah: should we give you this heter of kesef? I'll tell you what I'm thinking, how to understand this sugya. When does the shaylah by a kesef start? Does the shaylah of a kesef start the moment it's found? Does the shaylah of a kesef start the moment that it hits the beged? Or third shaylah. Does the shailah of kesem start when the chacham sees the kesem, when the kesem is found? There is a psak. I know. You want to read it? Go ahead, read it. Angels. So where do we go after? From the moment the chacham saw it. So then let's say like this. If you learn that it has to do when you found it, it could be it'll be תלוי like this: if you knew that it was there and then you wiped it, so the fact that it's on the beged is not going to help you anything. It was there. Is kesem dependent that the beged becomes a shailah? So maybe where it was not on a beged and you made it on a beged, it doesn't have a din kesem. Yeah? You hear the nafka mina? Go ahead, say it over. Say it over, the nafka mina. Let me see if you can say it over. Say it over. No? I see your mind is somewhere else. You know, I'm a professional rebbe. Exactly is a kesem. Go ahead. Ilan, ilan, ilan. What is the criteria of kesem? Yeah, what is it? Just tell me what. Those are the conditions of heter and issur. I'm talking—what? Mahu ketem? Lo mahu din ketem. Mahu ketem is...

Tam shelo yatza mimkom. Huh? You want to read it? Read, read, dude. This piece about the sevara that changed color. Okay, so what does he say? That's what—this is where my raya is. This is why you're sitting by me. You see how he— and that's why I like this book. You know what I like about this book? He talks to the point. The man knew how to concise the halacha. You heard the three shitas? You heard the three shitas? What did I tell you? This is the lomdus I was telling you. Mamash the lomdus I'm telling you. Do we go after when it happened? Do we go after what it is? Do we go after when the chacham saw it? The moment it hit the beged, the moment it was found, or on the beged—the beged now is this—or the moment the chacham sees it? Read it again. Send it to Elon and then we'll create. Maybe. Maybe. Do I remember everything I said? How much was the— It wasn't so much. It wasn't pashut then either. It wasn't so pashut then either. Famous shitas. I spoke about this. I spoke about it before. One of my yesodos in Hilchos Niddah, that one of the yesodos of some is that we're not sure when a kesem becomes a kesem. What is a kesem? It's not clear. Is the kesem the blood? Is the kesem the beged? Is the kesem the shailah? What is kesem? So I want to clarify like this. Kuvitz nega over here too. The blood comes out, it's al bsarah. So the moment it came out— So then it was al bsaro. That's where it was found. That's what it is. Now you went and you took and you put it on a cloth. You found it later. It's true, but that's not on a cloth; it was on your basar. אי דילמא, it has to do with when you found it. So if you found it later, so you found it later, what's the difference? It was al bsaro. אי דפשטא is it has to do with when the chacham saw it. Meaning, so even if I knew, I knew about it before, but when do I bring it to the rav? I bring it to now when it's on a beged, so the she'eilah becomes on the beged. That's the nafka mina in the shitas. It comes out a meirdiker zach. What a taina. Reb Moshe and these gedolim are holding the what in the kesem is the metzius. The horaah, the horaah that's nogea to the kesem, that's from when the chacham saw it. So when it comes to the chacham, the horaah, davar she'eino mekabel tumah and these things is what is later; it's on the beged. Mitztaref v'eino mitztaref, kubis is not a din in horaah; it's a din in the metzius of the kesem. The metzius of the kesem is al bsaro. The metzius of the kesem is al bsaro; the horaah of the kesem when it was already on the beged. And therefore, bshaas, tipin tipin, that's a din in the metzius of the kesem. So we have to go — it was definitely al bsaro; the kesem was al bsaro. The hei'rah, which is what the chachamim aser and didn't aser, the hei'rah, how do you pasken it? So then there's klalim, and how do you pasken on a beged? That's the nafka mina. In other words, this is where the kesem is on one hand b'psarah. Whatever's the negea, whatever's negea to the metzius of the kesem, it came out there was al bsaro. You can't wipe something, you can't change the metzius; it was al bsaro. Mashenkein, davar she'eino mekabel tumah, and all these things, it's not the metzius of the kesem; it's a din on how to pasken when the kesem comes before you. Chachamim matir — you can be matir a kesem because of teliyah; it has a lot to do with teliyah. Why do we pasken the same thing, but when you have a beged come to you, why do we say it's tar? Because that's what I'm telling you, because the hei'rah is telling when it comes to... No, why do we say it's mitztaref? The metzius of the kesem you can't pasken. What? Why do we say it's mitztaref, just like on basar? When I say it came to you metzius — not metzius — the beged came to you, right beside, but the beged... but by beged we're machmir to say that it is mitztaref. What? I'm telling you because the arugah mitztaref by beged.

Tipin tipin has to do with tipin tipin, the blood. It's not a psak. It's not a question of pata pasken. It's not a shayla of psak. It's a shayla if there is kesem b'saro or is a kesem al habeged. Davar she'eino mekabel tumah is a makom to be matir, and that's what I think he means, the nisnkarel. By bigdei tzivonim, we'll be matir also. You know, it's just not there. It's not. Bigdei tzivonim is not—he's learning bigdei tzivonim is not a heter. Bigdei tzivonim means that there's no kesem. It's not a psak. That's what he wants to say, that the bigdei tzivonim is—what is it? Where is it? It's not here. You know where I hold this nafkamina would come out? Let's say it's on bigdei tzivonim where you could notice it. It's a big red nachrayis. It's a big machlokes. I think it's telling this shayla. When you say bigdei tzivonim pshat is it's just not here. It's a she'eilah in the metzius. But bigdei tzivonim is a heter. So even when you know it's there and it just has bigdei tzivonim, maybe you have the heter. That's the yesod of the machlokes. Is it a heter or it's like it's not here? It's just not here. So if you hold it's not here, it's dinim in the metzius of the thing. So he wants to say, but the metzius was al habasar. But if it's gone and it's now on this and you don't see it, so it's not here. You don't see it anymore. It's not a heter. What's the hora'ah again? Huh? Then what's the hora'ah? There's two things. There's what it is and how to pasken it, how to deal with it. One thing is what it is, and there's another thing: how do you deal with it. The what it is is al basar. You're not going to run away from that. It is al basar, unless she wiped it off and it's gone. It's not here. It's not here. It's just not here. Davar she'eino mekabel tumah comes out to be that it's gone. No, davar she'eino mekabel tumah could be a heter. Kubi davar she'eino mekabel tumah. There's a heter. It's not here. It's not here. It's just not here. It's just not here. He says he used that to ... says it's just not here. What do you want? I want to be machmir as if it will be b'psarah, but it's not here. It's just not here. By davar mekabel tumah, why did you say it's a heter? Maybe ... also considered like it's not here. I'm just saying this is what the chreidim are arguing in. This is what the chreidim are arguing in. Is davar she'eino mekabel tumah a heter? Pashut, it's a heter. Davar she'eino mekabel tumah, they were matir it. So that's tolin hoira'ah; it's not tolin the metzius. Mashenkein bigdei tzivonim could be it's tolin the metzius. Is it clearer? Yeah, yeshiv? You look like you're somewhere else today. Why that? I don't know. So, davar she'eino mekabel tumah means that you'd be matir such a kesem. On a bigdei tzivonim, there's no kesem. It's not here. It's not here. What do you want? What about if it's a bigdei lavan? I'll explain to you. So bigdei lavan, then it is a kesem. Yeah, but still it's a davar she'eino mekabel tumah. Who cares if it's ... Again, the kesem on a davar she'eino mekabel tumah will be mutar. We're not going to asser such a kesem, but it's a kesem. What do you mean? Unless you'll say that davar mekabel tumah is also not a kesem. That's a chiddush. I'm saying, maybe that's what they're arguing in. I always thought a davar she'eino mekabel tumah, there's no din of kesem on it. There could be even a big thing. Let me explain to you. When you say the dinim, you're painting with a brush. It's mutar. Of course it's mutar. That's why it's mutar. How does the mechanics work? You said that it's not here, or you said that— Regardless of what the reason why it's mutar, why would there be a machlokes as to whether it's a colored garment or a colored tissue or non-colored? It's not tumah. Tumah in general, there's a chiluk between every color. Whenever there's a colored garment, let's say it's a see-through color, it's a yellow. Is that called bigdei tzivonim? What are they arguing in? They're arguing in this yesod: is bigdei tzvaim the heter, so then you have the heter. But if bigdei tzvaim means it's just not there, so you don't have it. What kind of heter? That applies only by clothing, which is mekabel tumah. But by tissues, there shouldn't be an issue. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to tell you a different thing. The whole yesod of tissues, yeah, being a davar mekabel tumah and not being a davar mekabel tumah, in itself is a tremendous chiddush. So what would happen if it wasn't a tissue? Oh, so it wasn't a tissue. It was a towel on a bigdei tzvaim. Okay, fine. So that's what the Rav Nissim Karelitz is saying. I feel Rav Nissim Karelitz is arguing on a ... regarding a tissue. No, no. I mean, there are those that argue on the whole toilet paper business. It's a big ... There's a Chazon Ish that argues. It's a big ... But he's not even going there. He's not saying that the two dinim might split when it comes to a wipe. In Yiddish we call it a vish. The machlokes is, when do we matir? Are we matir when there's a heter, or matir when there's something? That's ... Okay. Now, just for your information, you would do yourself a lot of good if you chazer this and wrote it over, because this is a little bit of a ... on the yesod of ... What is ... and where do we ...? And you see the nafka minas l'maaseh, bigdei tzvaim and all these things.