Hilchos Chazarah: Odah B’Yado, Daas Lehachzir, and Transferring Hot Food Between Pots

Transcript

One of the conditions of the Rama is the sugya called oida biyadoi. What does oida biyadoi mean? That it's not al hasafsol, or you need the ma'alah of oida biyadoi. There's two ways to look at oida biyadoi. Oida biyadoi is just that you don't have the negative, that you put it down. Or you need the positive, that it's oida biyadoi. Someone's going to ask me, what's the nafka mina? I mean, there's no middle ground. If it's not oida biyadoi, then it's al hasafsol. If it's al hasafsol, then it's not oida biyadoi, so it's not real hakirah. What's the difference, right? The answer is I can give you a case where it's not oida biyadoi, it's not al hasafsol, and I don't mean it's hanging in midair. You gave it to your friend to hold. You picked it up, it was too hot, too heavy, and then you went and you gave it to your friend. Does that have the ma'alah of oida biyadoi? L'choira you could clarify that it has to do with the lamdus, right? If the ikar is that when it's called oida biyadoi, so it's like considered that you didn't take it off. Maybe the ma'alah of oida biyadoi means that you're still in transaction of the original, right? You took it off and you're putting it back, so that's not called taking it off, because it's still in flight. There's an expression in English, you're in flight, en route. It didn't go anywhere. You took it off and you put it back. So maybe then if I gave it to the other person, maybe, maybe, maybe it's different. It's not anymore called oida biyadoi. But if the maile of oid biyadoi is that I didn't put it down, so kol zman it wasn't put down, I don't care if it went to a hand of another person. So this is a very nice ha'arah. I saw Rav Nissim Karelitz in the sefer speaks about it, and he says that it has the maile of oid biyadoi even if I gave it to someone else to hold, as long as it wasn't put down. But the lomdus of it is interesting. Even though he doesn't speak out the lomdus, he's not me'asek shailah. If it's oid biyadoi and I gave it to the other person, and he answers, that's still called oid biyadoi. What I'm doing is I'm just taking it apart to see the mechanics of the shailah, like what exactly is the nidon. And this is l'cheira the nidon. If you look at it, that you have to have oid biyadoi, so this is not called oid biyadoi. If the maile of oid biyadoi is it was never put down, maybe still, unless he learns like a type of lomdus that oid biyadoi is called any yad. It doesn't mean yad of the guy who took it off. Maybe it's not a lomdus. He holds that that's still, you know, even if the lomdus is you need oid biyadoi and not that you shouldn't put it down, this is still called oid biyadoi because it's biyad of somebody. It doesn't have to be that we break it up with the lomdus of oid biyadoi. Stam, this is called oid biyadoi. It doesn't say yad of the person who took it off. It's in someone's hand, maybe. But I like to say it this way, that if you learn that you need a tenai of oid biyadoi, this is not it. But if you need the tenai of oid biyadoi only that you didn't put it down, this is it. Okay. What happens if a person goes and takes, very classical case, a piece of chicken out of his pot, all right? And see, now again, you might not identify so much with this because you guys don't like the Rama anyway. Even though, Sefardim like to say, Yotzim ashkenazim yotzim b'yad ramah. You guys can't identify that much because you have the mechaber. As long as it's not on the floor, there's no sugya, right? Okay. But, but it's a Rama. You have to know the Rama, okay? Okay, so an Ashkenazi guy comes to you, to your door, to ask you the shaila. What do you say? Only pasken with Sefardim? You have to know the Rama. What? Pasken the Rama anyway. Al kol panim, I took a piece of chicken. Yeah. My kavana was only to take half of it. I only want the bottom or the top. But I had to take out the whole piece to cut it. So originally my chazara was meant—my chazara was—I'm sorry, my taking it off was meant to put it back. So it's daito l'hachzir. It's oide b'yado, especially according to R' Moshe, let's say, that I have the fork, right? So even if I put it on a plate on the counter, even if I put it on a plate on the counter, I have the fork, so yesh lekol oide b'yado, right? I have the piece of chicken. Sometimes not. Sometimes people take it out, they cut it, and they want to put—

No problem to cut in the pot. And the pot should be, unless it's saucey, you have meigis, nah. But, I mean, I'd rather we're going to talk about this when we get to the halachos. Meigis is not a real halacha. It's a fabrication, a chumra b'alma, this whole halacha of meigis. This, that if you mix it, Mishnah Berurah talks about it, but it's very weak. Who? He says it's not nisbashel. How can I cut it up? I mean, how can I be meigis in the pot? He says it's not nisbashel. I'm talking about a regular Friday night when it's nisbashel. I'm talking about a regular cholent pot. Here, a regular case. Friday night you want a piece of kishke. So instead of cutting it in the pot, because it's going to turn the whole pot into a mess, you want to cut a piece of kishke in the pot? Yeah? You're not going to cut it in the pot, because then it's going to be all over the place. What you do is you want to take it out. So the way to do it is to either hold it with the fork or hold the plate, you know, something, okay? Now, can I return the stuff that I didn't want? Now, on one hand it's oyda b'yado, but at the same time it's not oyda b'yado in the original pot; it's oyda b'yad, put into a plate. It's stam a v'yafeh loi; it's only a problem of chazarah, but here you have a blech. It's k'maichal ben Drusai; it's a regular cholent pot, maichal ben Drusai. However you did— On a blech? How can I do b'chazarah? It's not a special. I'm saying because you're going with that biur halacha that you're allowed after maichal ben Drusai. So let's say— Rabbi, slow down. You can return something which is nisbashel kol tzarko. Good, but you still need a blech, right? Or whatever. Me and your child Friday night, it's good, it's finished, it's cooked, but you can't make chazara. Yeah, you cannot do chazara, right. Good, so why not? Why not? As long as I don't put it down, it's fine. So I'm giving you a case where I didn't mamish put it down. I take it out with daas l'hachzir. It's cooked. Yeah, Friday night, when it's already... It doesn't have to be mitztamek v'ra lo; only in a tanur it has to be mitztamek v'ra lo. Only in a tanur it has to be mitztamek v'ra lo. Yeah, but blech. No, boreh. Why boreh? I took out the kishke. Why is it boreh? That's only boreh mi'toch. If I cut half and the other half I don't want, it's not boreh. It is, it is. I'm just wondering, the metzius is that Friday night usually cooked? Yeah. Oh boy, is it cooked. Sure it's cooked. Some people started from Wednesday. By the Chassidim, by Wednesday already it starts. By Thursday night it's ready to drop it on a country, to blow up the whole country. Okay, so you are allowed to be... chazarah, you don't need mitztamek v'ra lo dafka. It's cooked. It's cooked. It's good. Elite or regular? Give me cooked. I need more cooked. I'm saying good, make another one of these cooked. A child, the longer he keeps, the better. Okay, listen. It's a very pashut thing. A child, the longer it stays, the better it is, the more powerful it is, the more explosive it is. That's the way it is, okay? That's what it is. They tightened that, what's his name had... what was his name again? Einstein. If Einstein would have known the chant, he wouldn't have created the atom bomb. Well, no need for it. Okay, now, tell— you know the maise, I tell you the maise. He came to Eretz Yisrael— my father told me this maise— that he came to Eretz Yisrael, Einstein. America, America, excuse me, America came to Eretz to speak to Ben-Gurion. I'm saying the, whatever, the American diplomats, whatever. Truman. Truman. Truman came to speak to Ben-Gurion, okay? So he tells Ben-Gurion that he liked very much the yogurt that they fed him, the yogurt, he liked it. So he wanted to know the secret ingredient in the leben. So Ben-Gurion told him, You tell me the secret ingredient in the atom bomb and I'll tell you the secret ingredient in the leben. It was trade. Here's the coffee you put in? Okay, so there's a special ingredient in a chant that's atomic, nuclear warfare, all right? And that is the fact that it stays, it stays and broils and bakes in the oil of the gasoline. It's very explosive, okay? So it's mitztamek v'tov loi. So now if it's mitztamek v'tov loi, could you put it back? So now it's an interesting case. If it would be yad soledes bo, there'd be allowed to put it back, but here's not a regular case of yad soledes bo, because you put it into a—

Plate. I have fork in it. So there's a very nice, so there's a very nice psak from Reb Elyashiv—I'm sorry, from Reb Nissim Karelitz, I'm very tired here—Reb Nissim Karelitz and Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, and that is that once you put it on a plate, it's like putting al gabei karka; it's like putting it in the refrigerator. The fact that you take from a plate and put it back, it's a nireh k'mevashel. Even with a fork. So even if you're holding it, even if you have all the other tenai chazarah, huh? The way they said it was b'tzalachas, that's the way it's brought down. If you put it into a plate, it's like al gabei karka. That's his de'ah yisod. Which means that even when you have the heterim of chazarah, right, this is by like putting it into the mekarer. It's not good, not pretty, okay? It's like putting it down into the refrigerator, because this is the nireh k'mevashel; you put it into a plate. All right, so you have the daas to lachzor, and you have oida b'yadoi, because if you don't have oida b'yadoi, right—and the truth is you don't even need oida b'yadoi, right? Because even if you want to pasken like this Mishnah Berurah, that you only need one, so it'd be a daas to lachzor. Let's say it's not oida b'yadoi, right? Let's make the cheshbon. But since it's like karka, so then we have this b'er halacha that it's really a big safek if you're allowed to use one with the karka, okay? So therefore it would be asur, okay? Good. Now, what happens if it was daas to lachzor, yeah, originally when you took it off, does that make it better? It's not the pshat, I took it off— You can take it off, and you're daas l'hachzir, meaning whatever I don't want, I'm daas l'hachzir. Originally, which means I don't know if maybe, yeah, maybe not. Or the pshat is I bedavka don't want the bottom part, the chavis, the polka. I just want the other part, or I just want a drumstick and I don't want... So when I took it off, I l'hedya don't want. I'm trying to tell you that l'choira this chiddush is even if l'hedya I knew what I want and what I didn't want, and I took it out l'hedya to put back one part of it. Putting it on the plate is no good. I'm just adding to this l'choira. It doesn't make a difference if it's pshat is I plan on putting back some, whatever it is, even if I knew exactly what I'm putting back. Still, I'm just... okay. What happens if a person was daatoi l'hachzir? How long does he have to put it back? So let's say in a case in the Mishnah Berurah, if you're holding in your hand, how long are you going to hold it? For a minute, two minutes, three minutes? I mean, how? Okay. But let's say if we pasken like the Mishnah Berurah that you could put it down as long as you have daas l'hachzir, you don't need either b'yado and daas l'hachzir. You put it down with the daas l'hachzir. You left it there for a half hour, twenty minutes. It's near the oven, it's remaining warm, it's not cooling off, let's say. But during that time, you spoke to your kid, your kid was mechaveis, spilled on the floor, and you were mesiach daas. Does the daas l'hachzir mean the entire time, or the daas l'hachzir is when you took it off it was daas l'hachzir? That's a good ha'ara. You know why I'm saying that it is a good question? Because Reb Shmuel Zalman says tzarichin. He doesn't know. In Shulchan Shlomo he asks this she'eilah: is the pshat daas to lehachzir mean the original time when I took it off, or the entire time I have to be not mesiach daas? So I want to taina a good vort here. I have to keep in mind—no, I have to remember back in my head that I'm gonna put it back. I have to think, okay, I have to put it back. I'm putting it back, I'm gonna put it back. But if I forgot about it, maybe it's no good. It says Reb Shmuel Zalman, v'tzarichin. So I want to taina a me'iredige vort. It's telling you this she'eilah also. If you learn that the daas to lehachzir is in the bittul shiur rishonah, right? So it means when I took it off, I ruined the first shiur. So it could be it's telling you when you took it off, you were daas to lehachzir, so it's not called bittul shiur rishonah. It's very possible when you're coming to be mevatel by taking it off, that's the ikar, that it should be daas to lehachzir. But if you learn that there's a special din of not being mesiach daas, daas to lehachzir, that the daas to lehachzir is a din in not being mesiach daas, then maybe...

The whole time. If you learn that the din of daito l'hachs, you didn't get that, ilan that the ma'alah is that when I took it off, that's not called changing the shiur rishonah. So it could be b'shas when I took it off, there was a daito l'hachs, so it's good enough. If it's about not undoing—see, you have to, you took it off. Could be the taking off is the bittul shiur rishonah, the actual taking it off. Hey, you know what the nafka mina is? We spoke about this. If it was nafal, let's say it fell by itself. If it fell by itself, so you don't have the ma'aseh of taking it off. You don't have the ma'aseh of taking it off. Yeah, but you have the hesech hadaas of the— you don't have the daito l'hachs, right? So it could be it's a problem, it's a reidah acharonah. Let's talk about the other way. What happens if it was never taken off, right, but the fire went out? So in hilchos hesech hadaas, there was no hesech hadaas, but in bittul shiur rishonah, you have it. First shiur is gone, can't say it's here. Here, you have it. Pashut svara. We're saying pashut svara. When we talk about chazarah, is chazarah the taich that the moment I took it off, I undid the first shiur, which is the lashon of the Mishnah Berurah always. Mishnah Berurah speaks bittul shiur rishonah. So is the taich of the bittul shiur rishonah that if it's oido b'yado... That's not called the bittul by the fact that it was taken off. So it could be b'shaas when I take it off is the issue of daas l'hachzir. Possible. It's a possible sevara. But then we could come and say that there's a special halacha of daas l'hachzir al tnai chadash. We spoke about this for Rav Shach. We said this, that Rav Shach says, nafal me'eilav won't be good. Why? Because the ma'aseh was hesech hadaas, and he proves it. Remember, you spoke about with the talis, that if it falls off, that's called hesech hadaas. Yeah, but he didn't take it off. So it's not about taking it off; it's about hesech hadaas. So nafal me'eilav wouldn't be good. So here too, if I'm מסיח דעת, I'm מסיח דעת. If let's say I took off my talis b'kavanah to put it back, and then I'm מסיח דעת, what's the difference, right? If I took off my talis with kavanah to put it back, and then a half hour passed because then I was doing a million other things and I was מסיח דעת, so then it's no good, right? No, I'm asking halacha l'maaseh. Would you say it's okay that, what do you mean, I took it off with kavanah to put it back and you forgot about it? You would have to make a bracha, l'choira. Good, so thirty minutes. Rav Shlomo Zalman spoke... So okay, good. So he says, Rav Shlomo Zalman says thirty minutes. He's speaking mamash gives the case of thirty minutes. The guy forgot for thirty minutes. He took it off and he forgot for thirty minutes. Again, you want to start nibble-gribbing? You want nibble-gribbing? Fine, do it that way. But I'm just telling you, Rav Shlomo Zalman's psak speaks a half hour. That's the lashon in the Shulchan Shlomo. The guy left it for half an hour. Mistama in the back of Rav Shlomo Zalman's mind was talis. Okay, fine. He doesn't speak out talis. He doesn't, he just says tzarichin. Yeah. With regard to talis, the Shulchan Aruch does say that if it falls off, I don't make a bracha. Why? Because when I put it on, I had daas to have it on throughout the tefillah. Right, so that's a separate case already. I'm saying over here, if I have daas to have my food on the fire till tomorrow morning and it falls off on Friday night, that wouldn't be... So I'll tell you, I'll answer you, there could be a bracha is one thing; shiur chazara is a different thing. You know, I can hear that in shiur chazara it's different, because you need the bittul shiur shain, it's a whole different hagdarah. Here it's once there's hesech hadaas, that itself is mechayev a bracha. It's not pshat it's bittul the first hanachos tefillin; it's different, hanachas tefillin. Again, you know, this is a pilpul shiur. I could sit there and give a shiur klali and then break up all the nekudos. I don't think it's needed. I think we just have to, like, smoothly pass through the inyanim just to get a little bit the inyanim. And that is that if it's nafal me'eilav, there's a hesech hadaas, I hear, okay. But there was no taking off. Maybe you need the taking off for it. You need that you took it off to be mevatel shiur shain. All right. B'kitzur, this is all reid in Hilchos shiin chazara and oide b'yado and so on and so forth, okay. There's an interesting Aruch HaShulchan. Aruch HaShulchan wants to ta'ina that the only time there's a problem...

Of even hiniach al gabi karka is when I took it off and I'm mishtamesh with it. I took it off and I took out something. But if I took it off, put it down just for a minute to rest, to find a better place to put it, says the Aruch HaShulchan, nir'eh laniyus da'ati that's not called chazarah. Meaning you can't make chazarah. Chazarah is the taich, I took it off for a reason. But if I took it off for no reason, then there's no problem of chazarah, even if it will be al gabi karka. What's the problem, says Aruch HaShulchan? I mean, se'if gimmel is not that way. Go ahead, read se'if gimmel, you see not that way. I don't know what he does with se'if gimmel exactly. Right, so what you want to do is you're allowed to take and put it back on top of another thing. Where did you put it? You put it al gabei karka. That's the story. If you put it al gabei karka, it's no good, right? Now why? Huh? It says al gabei karka, the next se'if. But you can't put it on the gabei karka. Ah, you're only taking it off to put it somewhere else. You're not taking it off to mishtamesh with it. I think a kasha. It bothered me. Last time I learned it bothered me, but this time I see Rav Nissim Karelitz asks the same kasha. He says, What do you— you see it's not true, Aruch HaShulchan. What do you do with this halacha? Aruch HaShulchan says that the only time there's a sugya of chazarah and a problem of al gabei karka, when I took it and I put it al gabei karka because I wanted to take something out of it. But if I put it al gabei karka just for the purpose... Because I want to put it somewhere else on the oven, there's no problem. If you see, ... not that. So there's no ... Make chazara, what do you want? There's no story. You shouldn't even have to put it on. Yeah, but you shouldn't even have to. You shouldn't even have a problem putting it into the same kedeira. What do you have to put on top of another kedeira? Mashkin baboiker, and he wants to put it somewhere else, right? That's the story. ... What do you need rekhanus? No, he's saying you put it on top of another one. Yeah, it doesn't make it even hotter. Right now my food is burning, so what I do is I put another pot underneath, and I put this pot on top of that pot. Yeah, so what's—why not? Why should—yizaher means because, you mean the lashon yizaher maybe. Maybe he's right. He's not telling you that. ... Let me see. Maybe he's right. Maybe the word yizaher doesn't mean this. Yizaher ... vishtirei tachas, otherwise you wouldn't need it. Oh, because, yeah, because you see the word yizaher doesn't mean ... So the truth is, I'll tell you the emes. I'll tell you the emes. I'll tell you the emes. Shtirei tachas—slowly—shtirei tachas. The Mishnah Berurah, by the way, the Mishnah Berurah learns—hold on one minute—shtirei tachas, the Mishnah Berurah learns that it means that it went down. To yatzei ledes. That's how the Mishnah Berurah learns reitachas, right? And he learns it al tzibur. A lot of Acharonim don't learn that way. A lot of Acharonim learn that the reitachas is that it's shav meretichaso. It's boiling, it's everything, and it's not so much a tnai, and we spoke about this. It's not so much a tnai in hilchos bishul, but it's a tnai in hilchos chazarah. We spoke from the Magen Avraham and the Gra, that the Gra learns that the din of reitachas is because of not chazarah; it's because of bishul. And that's how the Mishnah Berurah is going. We spoke about this. Mishnah Berurah is going this whole mahalach in the beginning. But the Magen Avraham, we said, learns that the reason is because of chazarah. It's one of the chamishnaim. According to the Gra, there's no chamishnaim; it's only four tenaim. Reitachas. I want to tell you even more. There's a Mordechai Kafa Chaim in siman chaf-ches that says that reitachas means even shav ktzas meretichaso, even a little bit. In order, you need that it has to be completely hot the way it was to put it back. Says the Kafa Chaim, it's very hard to measure that. You know, if it's not mamash the same heat, you never know. It could have been shav even a drop. Bishul, according to Mishnah Berurah, it means that it went cold, basically. But if you don't learn the reitachas that way, and he says the Beis Yosef learns it that way, and others learn that...

But the other, ... tachas, is peshutai. V'lachein rabim shleimim yire'im, du never do chazarah whatsoever. They just don't do it. It's good to keep it in your back pocket, that they don't do chazarah whatsoever because of this reason. Look at it. It's a ... It's a ... Rabosai, it's a ... ... learned ... So could be, could be, could be, that ... we'll learn, v'sh'tiyeh ... is like him. So then it doesn't bother me. Once you didn't ask me a kasha, I can stick in v'yezaher means you should be careful, because it's farf, that's the case of chazarah. It doesn't bother me. But I hear. Ilan, I like your teretz that says v'yezaher; you should say it's asur. Why v'yezaher? You asked me a kasha, ... teretz says ... maybe means like the ... like the other acharonim. ... just means shav mi'tichaso. But ein hachanami, if it goes down, it would be v'yezaher, then it's asur. If it's less than ... and that's what it means, then it's not ... then ein hachanami, the word v'yezaher is taka wrong. It should have been issur. Okay. Now, rabosai, let me show you how this all comes back to haunt us, so to speak, in the next halacha of meicham l'meicham. I want you all to look at se'if katan mem-zayin in the Mishnah Berurah. So the Mishnah Berurah brings down. Oida b'yadoi, sheloi heisakter miyadoi, ad sheachzirenu. Ula'afukei menichal gami mita. So the case of Chazara says the Mishnah Berurah is what? Nun hei, and the Shaar HaTziyun, se'if katan mem-zayin. Okay. Says the Mishnah Berurah, V'lo hiskarti pinah mimeicham l'meicham. You see the little Shaar HaTziyun over there? I didn't bring the sugya of pinah mimeicham l'meicham, shezachar haMagen Avraham, mishum d'b'lav hachi yesh doyshim mekilin b'meicham sheini. Ayin b'Tosafos v'Ran, al kein, lefi aniyas da'ati, pashut d'ein sischa l'hakil b'bayis zu. Okay, now what is he talking about? The sugya of pinah mimeicham l'meicham, I grew up not knowing that it even existed till I learned the sugya in Shabbos, and then when I learned the sugya in Shabbos, I grew up that it didn't exist because we don't pasken like that. And what does that mean? There's a whole issue of pinah meicham l'meicham, which means something which is mutar to have shehiya, to take it to a place where it's mutar to have shehiya. Meicham l'meicham, it's called pinah; I unloaded it from one place to another. Ah, so the Shailah is what the case is. The actual case of the Gemara is that I put it into a clay reikan in the middle. I took it and I put it into a clay reik, an empty kli rishon, a regular cup, okay? And now understand the story, because if you notice the Mishnah Berurah speaks about that there are meikil b'meicham sheini. What does he mean? The actual Ran is talking about when I put it back into the original meicham. The story of the Ran, that the Ran paskens l'chumra in the ba'aya of Gemara of pinah meicham l'meicham. The Ran learns the story: I took it in a cup, and then I put it back into the same. For example, I took hot water and I said, You know what? Forget it, I'll put it back. That's called pina meicham l'meicham, all right? Pina meicham l'meicham is another case of chazarah. Pina meicham l'meicham: I took a cup of hot water and I put it back into the original place. That's the case. The Ran paskens l'chumra in that case. The Magen Avraham paskens like that Ran, while the Mishnah Berurah says, I don't want to hold of this Magen Avraham. That's what he means in the Shaar HaTziyun, that I'm not paskening like this Ran and this Magen Avraham, even though the Magen Avraham brings this Ran, lo hiskarti, I'm not mentioning this Magen Avraham. Okay, so this Magen Avraham is paskening meicham l'meicham, while the Mishnah Berurah is paskening that you can be meikel from meicham to meicham. But what is the case that he's meikel on? What story is he meikel on? He talks about a meicham sheini; he didn't talk about the Ran's story. So where and what is he being meikel? What's the story of—okay, so we can learn like this: he's meikel to put from one to another, direct maybe, which means with what the yeshiva olam does, that they take the urn and they bring the cholent to the urn and they pour the water. They're not going to take it in a cup.

I pour it into the cholent. Huh? They don't take the cup. What they do is they take the cholent itself. They'll bring the thing right to the pot, to their hot water, and they press the hot water urn, and it goes directly into the cholent, right? The ta'us with that is that that case the Magen Avraham himself is matir. That's not the sugya of the Ran. The sugya of the Ran is when you take it into a cup and you put it into the original meicham. So to take directly from one to the other without the emtzaius of the cup, there's no sugya. So the Magen Avraham is meikel on that as well. So when the Mishnah Berurah is cholek, obviously he's cholek on that as well. Where's the problem? The problem is it's not clear when the Mishnah Berurah was saying I'm being meikel because our day is that are meikel l'meicham sheini, maybe that's all he meant. Maybe he taka meant, meaning that I can put it into the other meicham. I, maybe the Magen Avraham holds like that, so what are you arguing on? So then I can give you another case. You know what the other case could be? Where I take into a cup, and I take that cup and I put it onto the blech. Of course the case can't be meicham l'meicham direct, because that even the Magen Avraham holds is mutar. I took it in a hot—let's say I take it in a kettle, a kli rishon. The Ran would say, no, put it back to the original one. There are de'os that hold that I can't take it and put it now separately on the oven to make a second one, meicham sheini. That's okay. But he was never matir to take from a kli rishon and put it back into the meicham. That's how the Olam HaTorah wants to learn, okay? When you hear that they tell you to do it direct, it's because they're stuck. Why are they stuck? To come and say that the Mishnah Berurah didn't hold, right? Meicham lameichim, the Magen Avraham holds that, so you're not being samech on this Mishnah Berurah, right? Ela mai, what's the story? The story, unless they're saying we don't hold like the Mishnah Berurah, unless the olam is saying, I want to be machmir not like the Mishnah Berurah, which is ludicrous, because on everything that the Mishnah Berurah is chumra, they run after the Mishnah Berurah. So here, when the Mishnah Berurah is meikel, well, what are you doing? Well, why would you all of a sudden be machmir like the Magen Avraham? Maybe that's what they're doing, I don't know. I mean, could be that's where it comes from, the whole velt that says, I'll take it straight from the hot water urn into the cholent, because they want this Magen Avraham, maybe. Or else, they're learning the Mishnah Berurah, that the Mishnah Berurah wasn't matir with a cup to a meicham sheini. The Mishnah Berurah was saying that the thing itself becomes the meicham sheini. I take into a clean pot, mashal, I take a pot of hot water, and now I want this pot of hot water, the pot itself, to put it onto the blech. That's what the Mishnah Berurah is matir. He was never matir with the emtzais of a cup, says Reb Shlomo Zalman, that can't be. It's impossible. Who? No, says Reb Shlomo Zalman, a mefurash devar. Reb Shlomo Zalman, it can't be that I'm allowed to take the pot itself and put it onto the fire, and that the water I can't put onto the fire. That makes sense. If I put it into the kli sheini, there's trouble because it's a kli sheini, so then it can't be that that same water can't go back onto the fire. Obviously this water can go back onto the fire. If I took a metal pot clean and I put it back onto the fire, is that okay? Where did the food start off? The food started in the kumkum, and I put hot water in a metal pot into this, and I take this and I put it back onto the blech. This, this I put on the blech. Am I allowed to do that? Yes, Mishnah Berurah says you could. Meicham sheini. Mishnah Berurah says it's meicham sheini and it's mutar. But this is a kli sheini already. We say that it's niskarer; it's already a different thing. It's not niskarer legamrei. What do you mean? It's only kli rishon. It's kli rishon shelo al gabei eish. This is a kli rishon shelo al gabei eish? The kli sheini. How could that be kli rishon? Okay, so let's say it's a kli sheini. Once it's a kli sheini, it's not shecht the bishul anymore. If I put it back into the thing, I'll be mevashel it. Why? It's still hot. Why? It's still a tachas. It's all boiling. It itself is still cooked. Why do I put stuff in it that doesn't cook? Here, that itself— Yeah, because that's the chiddush, that it itself is not a problem. But if I put food into it, it won't cook. I mean, that's what it says here. I mean, that's meicham sheini. That's the story. Okay. The Kitzur, Rav Shlomo Zalman, that doesn't make sense. You shouldn't be allowed to put it with a cup. So according to Rav Shlomo Zalman, you're allowed to take a cup of water and put it in, and they did it. I never heard of this whole thing. They took hot water from the urn and they put it in. No one ever thought twice about it. Okay, so they were learning the Mishnah Berurah this way.

Now, but I want to show you something peledik, yeah? What happens if I take a ladle, and I use a ladle, not a cup. I use a ladle to take the water to put in. Says Reb Shmuel Zalman, a chiddush. And where the sugya of pina meicham l'meicham is when I put into a cup, because it's nireh k'mevashel by putting it back. It's nireh k'mevashel by putting it back. But if I took it, and I did it with a ladle, there that's not called a nireh k'mevashel. The ladle is— even those that would say the cup is no good, the Ran will be maskim by ladle. So technically what a yeshiva man's supposed to do is either with a ladle take the hot water, or pina meicham l'meicham, and then you have the Magen Avraham, the Ran anyway, according to— because you did it with a ladle. What happens if I took with a ladle, and I only want some of the soup and I want to return the rest of the soup? I took a thing of soup, I pour a little bit, I want to put the rest back in. According to the Ran, you have a big problem. What are you talking about? Because since it's going back to the original meicham, so that's the classic case of pina meicham l'meicham. You took it out. Nireh k'mevashel is when I take with a ladle to put into another meicham. Why am I pouring it back? You want to explain to me why am I pouring it back? It doesn't matter. It does. The nireh k'mevashel only when I take from here to this, says Reb Shmuel Zalman. You see, I'm just trying to get hot water into this one. But when I put it back, even the Ran will be modeh. So they don't know this Ran. Had they understood the Ran, they're being machmir meicham l'meicham, but at the same time they take the spoon and put it back. That you're not allowed to do according to the Ran. It's a tartei d'sasrei in what they do. The meicham l'meicham, they're machmir. Oh, the Magen Avraham— what about pouring the soup back from the ladle? Everybody does it. You see, when you serve, the wife serves, she takes a little bit, and the rest she puts back, right? In the ladle, she puts the ladle back. You're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. According to the Ran, you're not allowed to do that. That's called pina meicham l'meicham. When you put it back, you took a kli rishon— it's issur d'rabbanan, you're k'mevashel. So I'm asking, why is that not nireh k'mevashel? Because it looks like, why are you putting it back? It has a derech of doing things. It has a derech of being mevatel take a ladle to put things in the pot. Reb Shmuel Zalman says that the only heter is to take a ladle and to put it into another pot. Okay, it's obviously late, so we'll have to be mamshich. Okay, I feel bad.