Hilchos Chazarah: An Empty Pot as a Blech and the Meaning of Al Gabeha

Transcript

I'm sorry, Siv Gimmel. Amashkim baboker. The ra shegdiach, shedicha tafshiloi, yorei, safek yach yoser, and he's afraid that maybe it's going to... Yachol lehasir l'haniach kedeira yeshanah. So you're allowed to take off. How do you put back? The Torah says you put back by putting a kedeirah reikanis, to put an empty pot over here. Zohir shelo yaskim deiraso al gabei karka. You have to make sure that you don't put it down, because then if you put it down, you can't do chazarah. So even if you would have put a pot, it won't help you, because chazarah is only mutar to a garuf v'katum. So therefore, when you took it off, you have to make sure to put a pot there to put it back. Now what's wrong leaving it? Because it's going to burn. So what do you put the pot there for? To separate from the fire more space. You know, it's higher up, so it would cook less. All the tenai chazarah obviously apply, and that's what the Mechaber means: v'yizaher shelo yaskim deiraso al gabei karka, v'shetihiyeh reikah. Because otherwise, you can never do chazarah. What does it mean that you take a kedeirah reikanis and you put it al gabei ha-kedeirah reikanis? What does that mean? Translate the word al gabei. Ah, so you set on top. I can give you a different translation, and that is on the back of, which means you would turn it upside down and put it on the shulayim, the back. The bottom turned backwards would be al gabei. Haravre befoel, which pshat would you accept? Do you mean al gabei on top of? Is that translation? Or does al gabei mean that you have to put it al gabei, turn it upside down, put it on the back of? This was tremendous controversy from my shiur in Leikut. When I said the shiur in Leikut on this siman, the walls collapsed on this one. What happened? I always translated it, not for much reason, just pashut, that's the way, for some reason I translated it that way, that it means that you turn it upside down, you put it on the back of. It could also be translated on top. I always took on it means the back. What did I do? So I started looking at all the sefarim, how most people bring it meaning just on top. No one ever said that you have to turn it upside down. I didn't say the word betochah. Al gabei means on top. What does that mean? Smaller? I'll tell you. Soon see. Now truthfully, you can have something not betochah and still be on top when the bottom one is even the same size or smaller, so it just doesn't fit in, so it's on top. Or maybe I can put like a covering, a covering I can put it on top. Is there any reason to say that it's flipped over? Okay, so let me show you why I said that it's flipped over. You'll soon see that there's a reason for it. L'maaseh, here it talks about a kedeirah kanes, yeah? What is the chiddush of this halacha? Tell me, what is the chiddush of this halacha? Maybe it's cold. I don't say that what, that you're allowed to put back chazara when there's a blech? No, the blech itself was cold before. Oh, so you're saying a very big chiddush. You're saying a very big chiddush. The blech is not cold now. But the second blech, you make now hot. What do you mean? What are you saying? It becomes hot. Meanwhile it's not hot. No, yeah, so it becomes hot. For what? What's the big deal? What do you mean? You're not putting the food into the second kedeirah. You're putting it on top. No, but the kli is cold the same. So what? So what are you doing? So what? No, so maybe till it gets hot, maybe the food will get cold. Ah, that's what you mean. Yeah, but nobody says what you're saying, meaning nobody explains that it's an issue of getting cold and then getting hot and therefore it might be mutar anyway.

Which is maybe stam a good hora. Should you wait till it gets hot, and then put it? Maybe, maybe that's a good hora. Nobody speaks about it. Very nice hora. I didn't see anybody talk about it, that by the time it gets hot, maybe that will turn cold, and then you have an issue. But nobody says that that's what this—no one mentions it bichlal in this halacha. L'maaseh, the Mishnah Berurah speaks about like a kedeira yeshanah, that it has to be an old one. If you notice, the Mechaber says yeshanah, because a new one you might have a problem of tikun mana, that you're fixing it by new. The Mishnah Berurah says our pots don't have that issue, so therefore, b'makom tzorech, you don't have to be machmir on a new pot. You can take a new pot as well. Okay. There's an interesting Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish says that there's an issur to put metal on fire. The issur to put metal on fire is the Rambam's shita that it's bishul. It's a form of bishul. You're being mevashel the mateches. Now, today's pots, I mean, you're not really mevashel them, right? Nothing changed. They don't get soft. They don't get hard. But still, something happens, obviously, to the pot a little bit, and the Chazon Ish wants to say al tzad chadshi it would be asur. There's two pieces Chazon Ish about this. One he speaks on this siman, and one bichlal he speaks that the pot might be asur because of chatzi shiur. Okay, which means even if it only a little bit changes, it's chatzi shiur. So he asks the kasha, so what's the heter over here? If it's asur to put a pot, cold pot, on a fire, what's the heter? See, it says talking about a klei cheres. This halacha is talking about klei cheres. It's interesting that the Mishnah Berurah doesn't bring this down. He talks about the new pot, doesn't talk about, in general, metal pot. The Mishnah Berurah, though, does pasken like this Rambam. In siman reish ayin zayin, se'if katan chaf beis, the Mishnah Berurah says clearly that you're not allowed to put a pot on top of a ner to save from the ner catching fire to the rest of the house, because of this shitas haRambam. So, chayrah that he should have brought it over here too, no? Chayrah he should have brought reish ayin zayin, se'if katan chaf beis. What is the problem on the ner? You're afraid that the ner is going to catch fire to something. So what do you do? You take a pot and you want to put it on top. Says the Mishnah Berurah, you're not allowed to do that, because you're going to have a problem of this Rambam. So obviously the Mishnah Berurah held of it. So the question is, how come he doesn't talk about it over here? It's a very nice ha'arah. How come over here there's no issue? You want to read it? Refolge, read it. Reish ayin zayin, se'if katan chaf beis. It has to be shel cheres, because if not, you have trouble of the case of the Rambam of bishul. No, the thing is maybe over there it's a different problem because you have to be chayish for sakanah. Okay, so over here it's not a sakanah. You'll survive without your shul. So obviously there's no heter, right? Okay, so the question is, im ken, if so, how come the Mishnah Berurah doesn't bring it here? Now it's interesting, somebody showed me, I don't even know from where, he was quoting some sefer that says that stam kedeirah shel cheres. And maybe that's why the Shulchan Aruch doesn't stress. He just says kedeirah, and therefore it answers the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish says it has to be cheres, stam kedeirah of then l'shel cheres. Maybe, maybe. So then maybe that's the chiddush of this halacha. The chiddush of this halacha is only kedeirah. You're only allowed to take a kedeirah, because if you would take something which is metal, you would have a problem. So maybe the eitzah tovah, which means hu adin blech, but he's explaining to you that the blech can't be a metal blech. It has to be cheres. Or maybe the chiddush is hagufa, that there is a din of blech. You know, we don't know blech yet. Do we know blech yet? Do we have any idea? We don't know blech, right? So maybe that's where blech comes from. Whenever we talk about a blech, we should know maybe that's the seif. The same way in the morning, you want to put it on a fire, so you have to put a metal. So this is the metal. So then it comes out two ways to learn this halacha. Is this halacha dafka by a kedeirah? So if you learn that you need cheres, so it's dafka kedeirah shel cheres, or a blech shel cheres, if there is such a thing, okay? Or hu adin blech. The two nafka minas are: what about a blech? Is this seif negea to a blech?

Which is a very nice ha'arah. What do you mean, to put on Shabbos is m'blech? Yeah. Maybe ha'guf is a chiddush, that you're allowed to make garuf v'katum on Shabbos. Maybe it's a third chiddush. This was the shailah I began with my shiur in Lakewood. I wasn't sure, what is the chiddush of this siman? Is the chiddush of this siman maybe the Chazon Ish, that it has to be kedeirah and not a regular blech, d'hainu what we call a regular blech, metal, because otherwise, if it's made from metal, you have a problem. The Rambam therefore it has to be kedeirah, which in those days was cheres. Or, farkert, ha'guf is the chiddush, that this is a blech, that there's such a thing called a blech, and that is called a garuf v'katum. Or a third chiddush we could come and say is that garuf v'katum is allowed to be done on Shabbos, which I'm not sure, maybe why not? I don't know, it's a chiddush. All right. Whatever it is, that you're allowed to make the garuf v'katum through the blech on Shabbos. Okay, so those would be the three ways on how to learn the chiddush of this halachah. L'maaseh, look at the poskim, you see that there's more to this halachah, and that is because l'maaseh in siman, in se'if hei, we're going to learn a similar case where you're allowed to put food on top of a pot, and there the pot is full with food. The kedeirah chamah that's there already full with food, you're allowed to take a pot and put it on top. Mutar la'seis. Go ahead. Se'if hei says the halachah, mutar la'seis. Panishes is what you guys have, the meat with the—what do you call it? Inside, the burekas, like inside the pastry. Yeah, continue. Okay, so you're allowed to put it on top of the tavshil. Why? Because this is called, lefi she'ein derech bishul b'kach. Nobody cooks one food on top of another food. That's not the way you cook. Okay. So, the shayla is, what's the chiluk between this and there? You know, it's the same halacha. No, it's the same story, a pot to pot. The only difference is here it's reikanis, and there it's maleya. You look on the pasuk, no, it's the same thing. It's one on top, unless you learn like I'm going to teach you, al gabei maybe. But before we get to the al gabei, pashut one is on top of an empty pot, one is on top of a full pot. What's the difference, right? Second, if you notice, the halachos are even different. Here it's mutar, even l'chatchila. You're allowed to put it. I'm saying, to put original. It's called litein. It's called you're allowed to put it. Mishnah Berurah calls it l'chatchila mamash, because the other ones he calls not called hachazarah, because it's not called hachazarah, because it's zorek b'yad, so you didn't really return it. Here, it's not—it's the same thing. I'm taking food and I'm putting it on top of the blech called kedeirah reikanis, and here I'm putting it on top of the blech which is kedeirah maleya. The only difference is that the halachos of chazarah don't apply in סעיף ה'. You're allowed to take it right out of the, whatever, it's on the floor. Mashenkin here, you have to make sure that it has all the halachos of chazarah. Fragt the Biur Halacha, I don't understand the difference. What is the difference between סעיף ג' and סעיף ה'? So go, rabosai, look at the Biur Halacha, and he says a very interesting teretz. First he brings a teretz from the Dagul Merevava. He says to himself, because there he talks about a kedeirah and he says you're allowed to put it down and put it back, and here— So maybe he would say that pandish is a different story. Pandish, why? Because it's bishul. So therefore it's a different sugya, and then pandish, okay. He doesn't like—he wants to say it's the same sugya, it's all about bishul, and here it's mutar for a different reason. Here is one reason, and there is a different reason. Go ahead, yeah. Oh, when you put it on top of a kedeira that has food in it, it's like you didn't even put it back on the oven; you put it back on the pot. Oh, so therefore there's no problem bichlal, because it's like you didn't put—

You stranded it in mid-air. You never put it back to the oven. Mashenkin over here, mashenkin here, it's more like for gruf u'ktumah, so therefore it's already kanis, but it's only al chazarah to the kira. So therefore you need that you didn't put it down, because if you put it down, it would be a nisah chazarah, right? You need garuf v'katum to put it back, so fine, you have the garuf v'katum. So it comes out a chiddush that siv hei is about what? It's about making it that it's not back to the kira at all. Mashenkin over here, it's just to make it that it's like a blech, like garuf v'katum. You look at the Mishnah Berurah takah. Mishnah Berurah says, al pi ha-kirah, that it's k'grufah u'ktumah. Harei ha-kademes, says pi ha-kirah. It's mamash the words of the Mishnah Berurah, se'if katan peh aleph, right? That this is all about grufah u'ktumah. Okay. According to this then, then a blech should be good. If this is only about grufah u'ktumah, then what would be the difference? L'maaseh, why would he talk about a pot? So I would say it's very technical. You know why? It's because you don't want a blech, because a blech is too close to the fire. You're trying to further the food from the fire. Okay, so very geshmak. All this is about is about a blech. Why do you mix me up with a kedeirah? Forget about sif hei. Sif hei is about a special thing with a kedeirah with food, and it's כאילו you didn't put it back on the kira. This is simple blech. So then why talk about a kedeirah? And the answer is it's technical. It's because you want it to be far away. You're trying to get it away from the fire. If you put it on just with a metal piece or even aluminum foil, but a blech is today, right? Double aluminum foil, like Rav Shlomo Zalman says, so you're back with the same heat. We're trying to give advice to a guy who wants to make the heat less. So, ein hachanami, you could stop that. Mashma, boikev v'rosh, dicha tavshil v'yarpei, dicha yoser, yachol l'hasal, l'haniach blech. Reikanis al pia, blech. That's why you don't even need kedei reikanis, blech al pia kirah. Finished. This is l'choira the pashut way to learn the Mishnah Berurah. Steve Hayes, you want to make chazarah. He's teaching you that there's no issur chazarah. That's not the point, that you're not looking for that. Over there you might want the heat. The point is there's no issur chazarah. Over there we're taking care of the problem of chazarah. Over here we're giving you good advice. There is not even about grufah u'ketumah. There is about since people don't cook one pot on top of another full pot, therefore it's ein derech bishul, b'kach, right? And plus, I guess what he means to say is that therefore it's like you didn't even put it back on the kirah, okay. Here it's only about grufah u'ketumah, and therefore if it's about grufah u'ketumah, so this is considered... So ein hachanami, you could have substituted the word kedeirah reikanis with blech. And the reason why you taught about kedeirah and not a blech, and the answer is because you want it to be higher up. That's the whole kavanah and not more, okay. I want to tie in a ma'areh makom chiddush, and the poskim discuss this. Why is it al gab? What does the word al gab mean? So the Rav Shulchan Aruch doesn't say the word al gab. He says b'socho. You're allowed to put it in. Technically, if you learn the siman the way I'm teaching it till now, you could take the pot and put it all the way down if you'd like as well. It makes no difference. You'd rather don't want to because you want to make it higher up. But l'halacha you'd be allowed to, because it's a blech, right? You could take the—if you had a big pot, you're allowed to go and take the smaller pot and put it right in, all the way to the bottom. If it's only about a blech, and this is just on top because you—not l'halacha on top. Acharonim want to say maybe it is l'halacha on top, and that is that it can't be toch; it must be al gaba. Mashenkein by the kedeira over there—and this is, I was medayek beautifully in the shiur over there when I said it in Lakewood—mutar la'asos al pi. Here it says al pi, and here it says al gabe. Notice that it's a different word. Here is al pi, so maybe it's lav davka. Possibly it's lav davka, or possibly it's davka. That is, huh? That al gabo is davka. Okay, good. Ah, very interesting.

Anyways, if you look at the Rav Shulchan Aruch, and if you look at the Acharonim, and if you look at this in Karelis, he speaks about this nekudah, that there is al pi is mutar, meaning inside; ma she'ein kein over here is al gaba. So he's medayek, al pi, that it only could be al pi, which means, I guess, a little inserted, but not all the way. Oh, because of the food. You see, b'letzi, if it's not in the food—let's say the food is only a little bit. Aha, see, he says the al pi is for sugya of hatmana. But this, the Karelis learns that al pi is a din in the chazarah, which there is mutar al pi. He doesn't medayek al pi and al gabei; I'm just saying, but l'choira that's what it means. Here you see is al pi, and there is al—I'm sorry, here it's al gaba and there is al pi. Inside and on top. Okay. Now what's the ma'alah of on top? Once you're telling me that it's mutar al tz blech, then it really makes no difference, no? What's the difference if I put something on—let's say I put something and the bottom of it goes into the pot. What's wrong? Rebbi, you just needed a blech. That's all you needed. All you need was garuf v'katum. What's the point of—it's not just to be mechaseh; it's also to make a heker that I shouldn't be mechateh. It's a regular kedeirah standing the way it always stands every single day of the week. How's that a heker? Most people have a kedeirah, and if a little bit goes in, there's a problem. Okay, I agree with you, but we have to define what you're saying. It's a chiddush. Pashut, step by step, if this is about a blech, then there's no cheshbon that it can't be in, right? The al gaba needs to be explained. I agree with you. I'm just, I have to explain it, right? It needs to be explained, okay. Now I want to go one step further, all right? I want to ta'ina a yesod, and that is that when the Mishnah Berurah speaks, that here it's about garuf v'katum, and there he says it's about, it's not on the kira at all. Maiseh, that's not what it says. It says, lefi she'ein derech bishul b'kach. So we don't mean the hefsek sheboi. We don't mean the not putting back to the kira because of the pot is because it's like, no, it's not on the kira, it's on the pot. We mean different. We mean since it's not derech bishul b'kach. So that's כאילו I didn't put the pot back on the oven, because otherwise you can't say your svara bir halacha, which is different than what it says in the Mechaber, right? How would you learn if it's a pot that's malei, you would say that's a hefsek, and therefore I didn't put it back to the kira, I put it back to the pot, right? But obviously that's not what it says, because it says more. It says, ופי שאין דרך בישול בכך. So what does that mean? That somehow the fact that this is not normal bishul, that shinui makes it as if I didn't put it back. Okay. Is it a technical thing or is it a heker thing? I want to ta'ina this yesod, that the Biur Halacha is saying that there you need a technical, that the eino derech bishul b'kach changes the metzius, that it's like I didn't put it back. Masha'enkin here, it's not enough just to be garuf v'katum. You need also a heker. You need a heker. You also need ein derech bishul b'kach. Over here it's also ein derech bishul b'kach? In סעיף ג it's a different ein derech bishul b'kach. It's the ein derech bishul b'kach, because don't forget, we spoke that in every din Chazara there's two issues: the shem yechateh. And there's also mechzi k'mevashel. So you need actually both. You need one thing to put a blech, to take care of which halacha, the halacha of garuf v'katum, and the al gaba is to take care of the ein derech bishul b'kach. Again, slowly, slowly. סעיף ה' is about a different type of ein derech bishul b'kach. סעיף ה', ein derech bishul b'kach, it's k'ilu I didn't put it back bichlal in the kira. Here it's about ein derech bishul b'kach. סעיף ג'. There's two nekudos. There's one nekudah, the garuf v'katum, the pot, and there's a second nekudah of ein derech bishul b'kach, al tzad heker, sheba'ein, therefore it has to be al gaba. Why can't it be mutar? Because it's not the second of ein derech bishul b'kach. Because there the ein derech bishul b'kach means it's k'ilu you didn't put it back on the kira at all. Even when you have regular chazarah, it's only by a garuf v'katum, and with all the tenaiim.

Right. I didn't say upside down yet. I said al gaba. First, I didn't get to upside down yet. I didn't get to upside down yet. Go ahead. I didn't get to upside down. Once I discuss al gaba, that it's pierced just garufa katum, and once I discuss al gaba, that it's pierced and just eitza toiva, kamashmalan, then I could say that al gaba maybe means you want to turn it upside down, that there the food makes it the shinui, the fact that there's food. So what are you doing exactly? You're cooking on top of the old food? Mashenkein here that there's no food, so in order to change, in order to make it eino derech bishul, it has to be mamash al gaba. I asked me a kasha where I got it from, who said. You know, I went to look at that. I went to look at all the Naye sefarim, and I couldn't find it. I couldn't find one person to say it. And it was interesting because everybody was maskim to me that in the lashon they hear it that way. When you read it the first time, you hear al gaba means turned upside down. Okay. Once you clear about it, then you start saying maybe not, maybe it doesn't mean that. And even the Rav Nissim Karelitz sefer, where he says it has to be—he doesn't say the word on top. He says it has to be al gaba u'dafno yeseira. So I don't know what he means by that. Does he mean on top? Maybe he means inside. No, not inside. Maybe he just means not going in at all. Not going in at all. Maybe he doesn't mean more than that. When you read it quickly, again, you know, it has to be al gaba v'dafno yeseira. What do you mean v'dafno yeseira? It means just on top. The way I understood it is that it's— Being held up by the gabo. But again, you know, since it's wording, you know, what does it mean? But, you know, the chag b'chag, what's his name, Rav Karp, the talmid of Rav Elyashiv. So he brings in the bottom of the arus, very interesting. When he brings it, he brings out just the words of the Shulchan Aruch. On the bottom he says, the Rav Shulchan Aruch says that you're allowed to put it in toich, peirush, that you don't have to flip it over and put it al gabav, but you could put it b'toich. You could put it רגיל and put it b'toich. So you see he's a chiluk d'al gabav, and that's what he means. That's what he's saying. He's saying don't be medaik al gabav, literally, which means to flip it over and put it on the other side, but rather, what is it? It's inside, according to the Rav Shulchan Aruch, which means here it's lav davka. So then you see clearly he learned al gabav the way I learned it, but I couldn't find anybody else. To me it was a peleh that nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody. The only thing I did find in the back of the klalim, when he discusses it, like lachar yad, he brings the turned-over keli, like he talks. But in the halacha he just brings it the way the Shulchan Aruch brings it. Like no one went out of their way to say turn it over and put it in. Okay, what do I have from this? Then we have a very big chiddush in se'if beis for itself. The chiddush maybe is the al gabav part. I'm not telling me a regular chiddush of blech anymore. Maybe blech is also not the chiddush of gimel. The chiddush here is that what? Al gabav. That it has to be turned upside down when it's in a kedeirah. When it's in a kedeirah, the kedeirah has to be al gabav. Okay, with this I want to explain the next pieces of the Mishnah Berurah. Mishnah Berurah says, lefi zeh, comes out a very big chiddush lahalacha. Says the Mishnah Berurah, yeah, u'lefizeh, se'if katan pei aleph, when he brings the whole din of garuf v'katum, okay? So he says, therefore, lefizeh, hu hadin gam b'tanurim shelanu. K'she'esh b'socho, gam kein she'ein liten l'maalah al gabi mazivah. If they have like a ledge on top of the oven, you're allowed to put it. Kiון shehamazivah mafsik bein hakedeirah u'vein ha'esh. Then he brings from the Mahril. The Mahril says no, d'tzarich l'hafsik sham al hamazivah, v'eizeh eitza dafka keira. What's the machlokes? What are they arguing? I want to tell you that's what they're arguing. The first shita holds it's just about garuf v'katum; as long as mechusah, it's good enough. The second shita holds, no, you need to make a shinui because it looks derech bishul. It's not enough just to cover the fire, making garuf v'katum, yeah? So therefore he comes and he says, therefore you need another one. That maybe is the machlokes, okay? L'maaseh, he brings the kechlin, the next case. The kechlin is where they had a compartment in the oven just to keep things warm, and they used to use it for Friday night. They used to keep the food warm Friday night. So it was a compartment closed with a closed door in the oven. So he says, the kechlin, he says what happened by the kechlin, that you're allowed to do it, but he never says that you need a blech. He doesn't bring the second shita of the Mahril. Mahril says—

The tzarkh l'hafsik al hamazivah. What about by the kechlin? What would the maril hold by the kechlin? Do you need a blech under the kechlin? It doesn't say that. So the Pri Megadim is medayek that it's mashma, the Pri Megadim is medayek that it's mashma only by the mazivah you need to put a piece of eitz or something, but mashenkin by the kechlin you wouldn't. Why? So he says a vart, because here you made the garuf v'katum. Meaning, meaning that the reason why by the kedeirah, ay it's closed, say by the mazivah ay it's garuf v'katum, yeah, but you didn't make the garuf v'katum. So therefore you need to put a blech that you made the garuf v'katum. This, that it's mimeila closed, it's not good enough. Okay. What? Which ... Remember in the Tanurim we spoke that those that say by the Tanurim there's no problem with the garuf v'katum because it's covered, right? Because on the bottom the fire is covered. Yeah, but still, according to this it's no good, because you have to do the garuf v'katum. It's not enough to what? To have rather that it's garuf v'katum. Okay. L'maaseh, what's with the kechlin? So I want to say gevaldik. You know what he means to say? The kechlin is not derech bishul bichlal. By the mazivah they used to cook there. Sometimes they would cook in, they would cook on top. Mashenkin by the kechlin, which is anyway not derech bishul, all you need is garuf v'katum, so that's it, it's good enough. The way I was learning the machlokes, that the Maril is saying a vart that you still have to take care of the mechzi k'mevashel, that this blech sometimes takes care of both. It takes care of the shem yechateh, and also takes care of the mechzi k'mevashel, like a kedeirah kanis. Mashenkin by the kechlin, which everybody knows is not meant for cooking, so meileh you wouldn't need this halachah as long as it's covered and it's garuf v'katum. That's the machlokes, the hesber.