Shabbos 123b: The Stages of the Muktzeh Decree, Kli Shemelachto L’issur, and Tiltul

Transcript

Every bet habad, every bet habad, when they squeeze the olives, had a stick where they would put the stick into the olives to see if it's ripe or not. That's kaneshel zeitim. That stick is called a kaneshel zeitim. Im yesh kesher b'rosho, huh? It actually says, im yesh kesher. Even has a kesher b'rosho, has like a pin or something. What's the distinction of a kesher? It's a knot. Even has a knot. If it has a kesher, mekabel tumah. It's mekabel tumah. Why? Because it's called a beit kibul. It accepts. If not, ein mekabel tumah. It's not mekabel tumah because pshutei klei eitz, simple eitz wood does not mekabel tumah. It has to be mekabel kibul. It has to have an opening to accept something. Mimeila it's a kli, and therefore it becomes tamei. How would it be a kli? It depends. If it's klei eitz, then it has to have a kli usage. Yeah, that's the halacha. Regular halacha from Shas, yeah? No, no, no. You would put it into the water, to the oil, right, to see if the thing is ready. You pick it up and then check to see if it's... You put the tube into the olive oil, right, and you put the tube in and then take it out to see if it's ready. How do you know it's ready? You check it. You check the top. You check the top to see what the top looks like. You would see what's in here. Same thing. You check the top to see if it's ready. If it doesn't accept it, that's oil inside, like a cup. It's like a hole. If it has this, it's a kabal tumah, it's a lot of tumah. If it has this, it has this place to hold the oil. Okay, says tomorrow, ... bein l'kabbal tumah, bein kach l'Shabbos. Either/or makes a difference, it's patur b'Shabbos. Okay, you're allowed to move it on Shabbos. Allowed to move it on Shabbos. Let's see Rashi. ... l'achar matzik tam. After you finish squeezing them, the seeds to take it. Right, right, right. After you take it off the tree, tzover b'maatan, you put them together like in a barrel, u'shmeinam mitasef b'sochan, and then the oil gathers inside. V'noiach latzeis, and it's easy for it to come out, v'yesh lei kana, it has a stick, v'hafchan boi t'miksen, to livedak, and also to check if kamru kol tzarkan, if it became squeezed out, lichmor, to become nichmor, not to sell. Yeah, it's like a pkak. A pkak is a bottle cap. Not cap. Stopper, whatever. Plug, whatever you want to call it. The kitzer, halochah is a kabal tumah, d'kli hu l'fishaa b'rosho, it's not thick, v'lav domeh l'kli, u'gmar mefarsh lo. Now the emphasis like this, there's a big sugya here. Not so much the get to the Gemara itself. The big sugya is if you need something to have l'shem kli in the get tumah, that it should be muktzah to be carried on Shabbos. The shailah is kadur. I'll show you, there's one—I don't want to go through it, but it's a big sugya. Kadur, a ball. The halacha is a kadur is muktzah on Shabbos. The problem is that kadur has l'shem kli b'negea tumah. So that's a big sugya. Ravram speaks about it. Yeah, sugya of kadur. Kadur, kadur, a ball. That's the sugya. I'm not going into it. Okay, after. Talk about the kadur; he's busy with it. I know he's very busy with it. Oh, but it's about this. With who? Who did he speak to? He spoke to you guys? Different you, with the Mishnah in Tumah, tahor. Different type of kadur, made from leather, made from—okay. All right, tell him the kashya. Quick, tell him over the question. Shulchan Aruch paskens—

Why? Look. ... So what does it say? Question is, no. ... What? A kli ... Tumah, because it's not מקבל טומאה. ... It's מקבל טומאה. It's מקבל טומאה, and a kli, a kli can't be מוקצה. ... Rambam just says it's מוקצה on Shabbos. ... The answer is, you have to know what a כדור is. ... You know what? ... Made it too kli. It's like you have ... play with a ball. I don't know. ... Yeah, so that's the answer. The answer is ... That's the answer. That's good. It comes from this. That's where it is. ... Oh, so let's see the Gemara. It says in Gemara, ... Why? The reason is because it's פשוטי כלי עץ. ... We'll look up in one ... What does Gemara say? ... פשוטי כלי עץ אינו מקבל טומאה. ... My taima? ... It has to be like a sack. It means it has to have a beis kibul. Sack. Oh, a sack, oh, a sack. So it has to have a beis kibul, because the Gemara ... So it has to have a beis kibul, since you use it to see the shemen, it's a beis kibul. Okay, next. Rabbi Yosi omer. Rabbi Yosi says. Good, you got it? I thought that we would work on it. Oh, so it has this kesher, this knot, this whatever you want to call it, mekabel tumah, yeah? It's not mekabel tumah. Why is it not mekabel tumah? פשוטי כלי עץ, it's nothing, it's a piece of wood. A piece of wood is not mekabel tumah. Whether it has a beis kibul or not, the halacha is it's ניטל בשבת, it's ניטל בשבת. Okay, what do you see? That you don't need wood; Hashem's kli could be tumah. Who? Okay, פשוטי כלי עץ, it's not wood. פשוטי כלי עץ, only wood. If it's wood, it has to have a beis kibul. Okay, continue. Explain what I made from wood, huh? Yeah, amai פשוטי כלי עץ too? What's the reason? Because פשוטי כלי עץ, ... mekabel tumah. Even ... Yeah, so, I mean the answer is, I mean the answer is because it's פשוטי כלי עץ, it's not mekabel tumah. Even if it has a ..., it doesn't know what it was. The answer is because you use it as a beis kibul. It has a beis kibul. Give that to ... Give ... You see, go back on this one. ... That's ... What about a ...? ... Okay, come, come, I want to move. This is not again. Come, let's go. No. ... Right? Okay. ... Right. Okay. ... Even though every cup has an inside. No, I'm saying, but it has to make kibul. Since it has made kibul, it should be like socks, but it's not made for the cup. Right, and still, halacha is it should be ... It should, because the ... not made to accept. This whatever holds, whatever is not made to accept anything. You ever see a guy drink something? Oh, could you pass me the bamboo sticks I can drink from it? Oh, fill me up on the top there. He drinks from it. It's not made to put anything.

Make to put the oil in there. No. Case over case is even better case than that case. No, no, no, no, no. ... No, no. ... No. We'll see it. ... Let's go back. Ready? Next sugya. Rabbi Yosi אומר, קלי... ... This first thing you can speak about is keli for Shabbos. Why should skip it? How many? Just one kasha. You say before, they have one kasha. What are you doing kasha? Okay, finished. Well, okay, you look it up. Right, right, right. ... Shabbos. Besaiz a masa gadol, like a big saw, a big saw, yeah? Show them the big saw and the yasir shel machreisha. Show it to them. Show them. Everybody see? Why? Because this is, you're not allowed, because this is muktzah machamas chisaron kis. Since they're expensive, because they're expensive stuff. Give me two examples. This is expensive stuff, and these two expensive things are muktzah machamas chisaron kis. Says the Gemara of Nachman. Says Rav Nachman, yeah, hai uchla d'katri. This uchla d'katri, Rashi says it has holes. Klei nechoshes asui kinafanim kamini kavim. It's made like a nafal. Uchla d'katri. It's a cut food. I don't know, it's a food cutter. But the point is it has holes, v'hu shel kovsin. It's made for a koves. V'notel alav begadim, v'mezalef ba mayim aleihem. Yeah, the water drips on them. The water drips on them. Drips shelegamri mugmar mitachtav. What you do is that they make smells from underneath, either it's on top of the clothing or it's underneath the clothing. On top of the clothing, what happens is you put like water and stuff and chemicals, and it drips on top of it, water it's underneath it, and the idea is you put steam and you put good smell, mukmar. You put fire. No, not to dry, to give it good smell, to give it a good smell. Okay. You want to know something? There's something that could be confusing. There's words, like I don't see words. Yeah, I know. ...you know every word. Read it. I'm like, read it. ...yeah? ...trying to pull ... You know, the ... He just turned around to me, very, very, very funny. He tells me, very, very funny. Only the sheets that go on the... I'll tell you something. Come on. A launder's riddle, okay? You got it? You understand? You understand? It even means, like, that they put it on top in order to drip off the thing. A launder's riddle. What's a launder's riddle? Yeah, ... We don't have it today. What do you want from me? How can I tell you what it is? We don't have it today. The point is to expand the machine. You know what the point of all this is? It's ... I don't get it. That's the... You know what the ... not what it is. Why? Look, ... finish. It's an expensive machine. All right? So the Chinami, so that we have to learn that. We're going to learn this sugya. Says the Gemara: Hai ...

Just like you have to chreisha, and it's muktzah machmas chisaron kis. Anybody misunderstood that? This machine, which is made for laundry, is so expensive that people want—it's like machmas chisaron, and it's asur. Says the Gemara, Amar Abaye. Abaye says, Charva d'ushchpi, v'sichna d'ashkafta, v'chatzina d'nagri, all these three types of sort of knives—was he say a Tupperware knife? What's the butcher's knife? What's the third one?—and carpenters. Same thing, whatever. It's all the same thing. The carpenter, the butcher, all three, okay? All three of them, right, are very expensive, and therefore what are they? They're like yotzei shemachreisha. Finished. Okay, good. Got it over with. Now, turn on. Now the sugya starts, okay? Yeah, let's get to l'maaseh, okay, good. The tanners, you know. Turn on. Turn on, huh? Says the Rabbanan like tanners. Rishonim hayu omrim—in the beginning, chachamim, originally, hayu omrim, they would say, shlosha keilim nitlin b'Shabbos. Only three keilim are allowed to be moved on Shabbos. What are they? Miktzoa shel gevil—that's not allowed. Here I'm going to translate because it's important. Miktzoa shel gevil means something they used to cut the things with, they used to press, they used to make like a cake of figs. They have it in the store today. They bunch it together, the figs, then they would cut it, like butter, you know, they would put it, so they would cut it. You know the machines in the store that they cut salami like? They cut the thing. Okay, yes, he has a carefully. B'tzayshon teilah, uzhuma. Uzhuma is zuma listroy, kaf gedolah, Rashi says. It's a big spoon. Shemezalkin boi zuhuma, the kedeirah. You take off the... you take off the top, you know, the top of the kedeirah. Yeah, but the... foam. What they do is the top. Foam. Foam. Foam. Atop of the... fish. It's not really dirt, but it's foam-like. Dirt from the food. Yeah. My family, they serve it in... Now listen carefully. Do they cook in half? On the court. Do they cook in half? Do they cook better? If you have shambles, goodness, first time in many years. Come listen carefully. Cooked the salad good. I have a... I have a... says here, says in Gemara, oh, lsakin... and the small knives that they put on top of the table. Rashi: shechotchin boi lechem ubasar lochlin. They would cut bread. They would cut bread and meat. Now let me ask you, isn't it halacha that a knife is... bread has to have its own knife? ... I don't know. Anyway. Yeah, I didn't say that. We learned that, say, I taught this to you. I didn't see it, but he said a special knife for bread, so, like, I don't know what he means here, the knife that's used, lechem or basar, I don't know the... I don't know. Special knife for bread. We learned about... special knife. We learned about... challah bread. That's what we... Special knife. No, no, no, no. We learned about... We learned about... We learned about... special knife for bread. ... I don't know. We have it. I'm just ... pointing out. ... Now, let's see here. What? These three, these three things, these three things that ... they're very much used. Now, remember the words in Rashi. Why are these nitlin birshus? D'hani ... b'tash.

Now, those Rashi means, since the Talmud ... there's no din of muktzah on them. Or since they were ... they were muktzah. Since the pshat is they're ... they don't have a shem muktzah on them. Or the pshat is they're ... so therefore they're not, they will not, they never ... Well, we'll see. They never ... they will not. It's the same thing? Not necessarily. Either pshat is it can't be muktzah for this reason. Practically, it should be muktzah too, but Chazal didn't want to make it muktzah. People need it. People have to be able to eat on Shabbos. They will not. We shall soon see from the Rishonim, from the Rishonim, beautiful. Okay? So keep in mind what we asked. Again, here's the meat of the sugya. Here comes the meat. Till now was the, I don't know what you want to call it, wasn't potato either, wasn't fish either. You guys the hunk, you guys the hunky. It was a phone, that's what I was gonna say. That was gonna be my favorite. There's Rashi. So what happens? ... they were matir, right? So let's see the lashon of the Gemara: Rishonim omrim, shelo yachol nitlin b'Shabbos. Now, does nitlin mean hitiru litol, or nitlin means that you're allowed to do it? You're allowed to take it. And then when it says, yeah, chazru v'hitiru, chazru v'hitiru, ad she'amru, kol hakeilim nitlin b'Shabbos. What's the lashon of chazru v'hitiru? Look at Rashi: hitiru, oi kishera'u shechazru lihizharg kas beir Shabbos, chazru v'hitiru kishenizharu yoiser. Chaz v'hitiru, v'chazaru v'asru. And the Gemara will explain what each case. So the lashon of the Gemara and the Rashi, it's mashma that they chazar the heter, hitiru, v'chazar v'hitiru, chazar v'hitiru. You see that even the first time has to do with what? Heter. That's the diuk I want to show you. Rashi, it's a very important diuk. Okay, you see the Rashi? You're maskim with me? Again, the lashon of the Gemara. See again, what's the point of this shiur? Just to learn inside, to know how to read it. So the wording of the Gemara is mashma, kol hakeilim nitlin means it's allowed. You don't need a special heter for it. The Rishonim discuss. But from the Gemara is mashma what? Tafrir, kol hakeilim nitlin, you're allowed to do it. So the next words of the Gemara is mashma, and the way Rashi explains it, hitiru. So what would be hitiru? You would say hitiru on what's already mutar, but Rashi didn't say that. No, I understand, the pshat is it's mutar, and then they came and they matir more. But Rashi doesn't explain that. From the way Rashi explains it, like this, you hear? Oid, hitiru oid, more, hitiru oid. Yeah. In other words, it's mashma that they were matir the first thing, and they were matir more, and they were matir more, and even the first heter was hitiru oid. So perush, first diuk in Rashi, yeah? So those first three keilim. Here, rabosai, listen, those first three keilim, pshat is there is no muktzah by them, or pshat Chazal were matir them. I told you about, you can say it either way. Because the Lashon Gemara is, ... kolkei u'matin, mutar. But from the next word in Rashi, you see clearly that what happened? Itiru. More. They were matir more. The first hitiru in the Gemara means they were matir more. So you see that they were matir till now also. ... Then they just added more. Yeah. When you have hitiru, oy. Stop saying hitiru. Just say it, itiru. Don't say hitiru, oy. ... That's what I'm just trying to tell you. Hitiru, oy, they matir more. Okay. Yeah, I understand. So then don't say hitiru, just say itiru. You see that it's not oy dvar, it's not oy. All it means, they were matir more. They were matir more. Itiru, oy. Rashi should have said itiru. They saw there were people ... they should have said itiru. Itiru, oy means that they matir more. So it's a diyuk. It's a famous diyuk. When I went to ... I heard this. It's a famous diyuk. I mean, what I'm trying to say is that it's not a diyuk, that's me. So Rashi says itiru, oy. Rashi means more. They were matir more. Okay, go ahead.

Now, let's see Rashi. He tiru. Rashi says, he tiru, with taltul. Now, what does Rashi mean here? What's he tiru? The first he tiru is going on the first he tiru of the Gemara. No, no, the first Gemara. The Gemara says that, right, ketarsa gabei shulchan, he tiru, they will matir more, and then mechazru v'hitiru more, and then mechazru v'hitiru even more. Where? On the shulchan you put a dat, right? Then he tiru, then mechazru v'hitiru, and then mechazru v'hitiru. The only shaila is like this: I just don't want to know deep. What would you say like this? If he tiru taka means he tiru only, why couldn't it be mechazru v'hitiru? Let the Gemara say mechazru v'hitiru, mechazru v'hitiru, mechazru v'hitiru. Let's say, what is mechazru means? Then they went more. If the first one was taka also this and more, then they will matir the first three kelim to shvus in the same lashon of mechazru v'hitiru, no? L'choira, let's— and if it's the first and then, then Rashi's oy does not true then. He tiru means they will matir more. Yeah, so that means that they will matir more. If tiru only means that there was something that they added more. Right, which means that this is not the first three kelim were not then. First we can't. Anyway, mutar. What I'm trying to tell you is, from Rashi's mashma, what? Where do you see ...? Where? Okay, but that's the next one. No, you're on the second one, ... The only question, I don't see where Rashi—are you with me or this is boring you? This is boring you a little bit, no? ... What would I think ... mean? What would I think ... mean? All I'm saying is like this: I'm learning pshat in the Gemara. What the Gemara says like this, I'll take the part of the Gemara: ... Oh, so now I'm asking you a question. If that's what it means, he doesn't have to say, Oh, just say ... This was mutar, and then ... this. It doesn't mean ... ... means they were matir more. If that's the Gemara, what? I'm not skipping to you on what; that's later. I just want to know how it began. It began three kelim mutar, or it began that they were matir three kelim? How does it begin? Does it begin with the three kelim are mutar? And you think I'm just bothering you? You think I'm here to bother you? I'm not. The Rishonim discuss this question, the Ritva, right away on the spot starts attacking: the first three kelim were mutar, or the first three kelim they were matir? That's what I'm telling you. Even you read like this: these kelim are mutar. Not the ... It's not mutar; it's not muktzah. They can't be mutar. That's deep pshat, machlokes Rishonim. Right? Right? Yeah, but how do you know they weren't matir it? When they were gozer on kol hakelim, these three were included. I was pshat, a special heter because you need them. Keep on saying, he said, right, there's two different things. Again, when the Chemi and Chachlal came along, yeah, came along and said, Where are you? What's you? Eh, kaikov! Kaikov, come, no? Oh, he just came along, yeah. The Chemi and Chachlal came along, and his times they said, Kol hakeilim asur on Shabbos, yeah. Why? Because there would be meikel. People would be meikel. They were doing terrible things on, they were carrying on Shabbos. Therefore they came and they made a real chumrah of Shabbos, kol hakeilim. Now, when they did that gezeirah, did they say these three are also should be included, and we're going to come and say a heter anyway because l'maaseh people have to eat on Shabbos.

What the pshat is, these were never included. There was never an issur in the first place. It was never an issur, ... there was never a havah amina to make this aser. So what—where do I see it in Rashi? Well, the first Rashi I can say to go both ways, right? I can say with this, chazer tashmish can't become aser, or since it's ... tashmish, it can become aser, or since tashmish ... chazaku matzrich. Where do I see from the next words? Chazer v'hitiru. The Rashi says, hitiru oid. They will matir more. Means the first was also heter. Oid doesn't mean—oid means hitiru oid, odvarim. Hitiru oid, they will matir another time. They will matir one time. So I'm asking, what's the pshat in that? When they asked everything besides those three, it means because they couldn't touch those three? What, they made it—I'm telling you, so therefore they couldn't touch it, it's so matzui, therefore it couldn't become aser? Or it did become aser; it was part of the takanah ... Where does Rashi not say that? Therefore what? Or maybe you could say that they're a ... matzrich for that reason, on everything. And Rashi started off that way, kol hakeilim. To be made ... right? Huh? I'm telling, don't say that. No. No. Shaino, that's what was allowed, maybe because it's a special heter. Look at Rashi. Rashi says in the times of the Chemi, ... kol hakeilim, all keilim. So when it says b'rishonah, you can learn either pshat is besides these three, or they were matir these three. Come on, the Gemara says later on, dibnei Nechemia ben Chachalyah, v'vayesheni, ... al kol hakeilim. That translates to kol hakeilim, which means what? Kol is davka, kol is lav davka. Okay, so that would be included, these three, right? So once I'm explaining to you, but then when the Gemara says b'rishonah that these three are nital, because you could say Chazal were matir it even though there's a takanah of kol hakeilim. Why were they matir it? Because of the takanah of kol hakeilim, because hashmitah. So then what happens when it says, chazru v'hitiru? It says chazru oid v'hitiru. That's why Rashi says the word oid. No, no, עוד פעם, chazru עוד, another time v'hitiru, because they were matir first the first three, then people got better on Shabbos, they were matir more, and then they were matir more. That's to say, you'll say the word oid means other keilim, but it doesn't mean oid. I'm telling you, chazru v'hitiru oid means another time, other keilim, but the oid is going back on the v'hitiru oid. You don't need the word oid if they matir new keilim. If they started for the first time they were matir keilim was when. This second, this new time when people say, you don't need the word oy, yitiru, they were matir. I'm telling you, because the teretz, the first was also heter. If you learned the first three, it was also heter, so then yitiru oy, they were matir, and then they were matir more, and then they were matir more. You understand with oy? So then what did they say were oy for? Who tiru? When people start to become good, they yitiru. The oy is telling you that the first... The only problem is the wording of the Gemara is not mashma that way. I'm just trying how to read. I'm trying to teach you how to read. Look, when the Gemara says, let the Gemara say chazar v'hitiru. On the first one also it should say chazar v'hitiru. Yitiru is mashma not chazar v'hitiru, yes. Listen, right. Says the Gemara, says the Gemara further, chutz... אמר ליה... let's say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you with me? אמר אביי. Comes Abaye and says like this: What's the... yitiru v'chazar v'hitiru v'chazar, what does it mean? He says like this. Yes. The Gemara should have said chazar v'hitiru the first time. Yitiru is mashma they were matir means till now there was not...

We matir stam mutar, or Abaye says Abaye like this: Hitiru davar shemalachto l'heter l'tzorech gufo. The first heter is all kelim which are melachto l'heter, l'tzorech gufo. Chazru v'hitiru, but the second time, davar shemalachto l'heter, l'tzorech mekomo. Chazru v'hitiru davar shemalachto l'issur, l'tzorech gufo, and—right, different stage—but l'tzorech mekomo, lo. Okay? This is Abaye. Says the Gemara, Abaye b'Yad echas ein, b'shtei yadayim lo, but this is what? It'll be yad echas. What is this? Two hands, yeah. Hacha amru kachin mishamshin b'shtei yadayim. That's the last perek of the— No, all these cases will be mutar, l'tzorech mekomo, even in two hands, because it's a shinui. Maybe only matir with shinui. Only matir with two hands and not with one hand. They want matir, they want to make it with a shinui. They want to make it more difficult. Abaye, it's all Abaye. In the old days, originally you weren't allowed. It's good to you, that's all you allowed in the first place. Something which needs two hands, you weren't allowed to do it. As long as you do it with one hand, it's mutar. Yeah, you got it, you got the Gemara. I mean, even after all the heterim of l'tzorech gufo, l'tzorech mekomo, and davar shemalachto l'issur, literally only b'yad echas. That's why we need the last, last case where they were matir, kalim l'toch haShabbos. The Gemara says, at the end was they said all kelim l'toch haShabbos only b'yad acher. Keilim shemelachtan l'heter, even the first three, would only be b'yad acher. Yeah, right, and they were matir. I understand. What was the first question? The first three were already mutar? All I asked you was the first three that has nothing to do with this, right? This whole Gemara, nothing yet. Which Gemara? This is the end of the Gemara. This is not talking about the first three. This is talking about the other ones. This is the ones after the first three. Okay, go ahead. Says the Gemara, Ela, אמר רבא, מיחזי, התירו קתני. It says they were matir, meaning they were matir the kli. So then, mali... I mean, the keilim become mutar. I mean, what's the difference? I mean, ... become mutar, finished. Ela, אמר רבא, התירו דבר שמלאכתו להיתר, בין לצורך גופו בין לצורך מקומו. We pasken like this: כאשר התירו מחמה לצל, כאשר התירו דבר שמלאכתו להיתר לצורך גופו ולצורך מקומו, אין, מחמה לצל לא. עדיין באדם אחד, בשני בני אדם לא, עד שאמרו, כל הכלים ניטלין בשבת, אפילו שני בני אדם. Now which is worse? Which is worse, to take out a kli? Yeah? ... Right, pack it up. Pack it up. Right, pack it up. No, chametz shel ... is ... That's all, the ... ... I want to go like this. According to the way we pasken, right, let's make a cheshbon here. A davar shemelachto l'issur, okay, shelo l'tzorech ... l'tzorech ..., a keli shemelachto l'heter, ... Now which is worse, to take out a keli shemelachto l'issur l'tzorech ..., or to take out a keli shemelachto l'heter l'chametz ...? This Gemara is mashma that it's much better. A keli shemelachto l'heter, michametz ... is a lot better than a keli shemelachto l'issur.

Let's do upa. I didn't say that. Now let's do upa. ... Then he will matir l'tzorech מקומו, and then will matir. Again. He caught by kasher. So how come a baal, when he wants to be matir, yeah, he is not matir stage number three, a keli shemelachto l'heter, bechamah l'tzel? That's my kashya. This is called learning a Gemara. This is called ... Why doesn't he say ...? Yes. No, but if the pshat is mechamah l'tzel is always better, so that's stage number three, Abaye. It never existed. It never existed. I know you don't understand. I don't understand either. Let me explain. Let me explain. Before we get through it, let me explain to what's going on. So no problem. I'm promising you that if you want to see the kasha, you are already on the way to becoming a talmid chacham. Ready? Too fast. Huh? Too fast. Okay. What's mechamah l'tzel? It's a special heter, because in the beginning you have to also remember, we're talking about after Chazal matir everything. But in the times of Chachamim, everything was asur. Next step. It's one step left. It's the chamur itself. It used to be aser, then they came and matir, but that was stage number three. Abaye tells me like this. You know what stage number one is? Stage number one is keilim shemelachtan l'heter l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo, right? You need to be tzorech. We could hear that the stages are a little different. First comes l'tzorech gufo, then comes l'tzorech mekomo, which is what the first Tanna holds. Tanna holds originally they were only matir l'tzorech gufo, and they remain l'tzorech u'mekomo. Comes along the second machlokes, then they bunch together. Once that's mutar, it's mutar. Fine. So what's the next step? So the next step should be l'tzorech b'chamah l'tzel, not for your need, but b'chamah l'tzel. No, keilim shemelachtan l'heter b'chamah l'tzel, right? That's the next step, right? That's the next— a keilim shemelachtan l'heter— No. Question. Because why? That's the question. Why? B'chamah l'tzel is worse than gufo. According to the second machlokes, two— gufo u'mekomo together. Fine. What's the next thing? The first machlokes? Yes, sir. We had this before. L'tzorech, because u'mekomo. The biggest chiddush, u'mekomo. Let's go back to— A is Tosfos, B is Ritva, and C the Rashi we just learned. Look at Rashi here. It sounds like this. Miktzaso d'meirubo, here. Says Tosfos, Lechashiv ela keilim. Notice that all these things, sakinim, are all things that don't have a beis kibul. So, pshita, the kosos, kayros, sluchiyos, hayu b'tal. Because it's clear. What? What? What? What did Tosfos say? What did Tosfos say? Tosfos is on top over here. Miktzaso d'meirubo. Tosfos wants to know why they picked for the three keilim knives, left a cup, left a plate. You know, when I was... Agreed, right? Agreed? So now the shaila is like this. So then what does Tosfos mean? Kama keilim needful. So either you mean Tosfos, you have to learn Tosfos to say there's no chiddush like this. You see that there's a difference between...

The case is a kares, and second, what's the difference? Because of the tirutz. You have to say, kol hakeilim nitlu, kol hakeilim nitlu, l'klu cups, put included. Came along Chazal, and they said, listen, we're going to be matir these knives, the tashmishon to the yevi. Another heter. Tahores and keilim, notu tashmishon to the yevi. You know what it is? You can't do that. It's impossible. We want a guy who should die on Shabbos? It doesn't happen. You tell me yourself. Since it's tadir, so Chazal were matir. Secondary into the list, in the din that we made. Again, when Tosafos says, ... l'chatchilah keilim, ... Tosafos אומר, ... What happened to all the keilim? And the teretz is because that's not even a question. It's not even an issue. What do you mean, not even an issue? What's the issue? The pashut you learn, you can learn that he's telling me that even in the heter here, the heter had to have been here. Listen, listen, listen good, listen good, listen good. Even in the heter, the heter — and even that we say that we could take three keilim, we had to bring a case of three keilim which don't have a best tevilah. Now, does Tosafos mean that otherwise there would be no chiddush that the keilim need tevilah? Does Tosafos mean to say that if lu yitzur — now listen carefully — if lu yitzur there would bring me a case of cups, there wouldn't be a chiddush? So you bring me a case like ... שיש בזה חידוש. That’s what it means. What Tosafos is saying, because in this din… listen, listen, because I’m teaching you the real pshat. Does Tosafos mean, does Tosafos mean that when it says, Rishonah hayu nitlin, when it says, Rishonah nitlin three kelim, does Tosafos mean the reason why we picked these three kelim is because there would be no chiddush, and therefore since we want to teach you something, therefore we picked these kelim? It’s just a question of chiddush for me. Meaning the person, when we read it, we would say, Ah, big deal, so what’s the chiddush, right? Therefore we picked strange kelim. Or the pshat is that this is perek Rishonah, that the nitlin three kelim only refers to these three, because kaisis and karis never had a takanah; it was never part of the issue of muktzah. And they were muktzah. You would never think of the first pshat, Tosafos? Why not? Tell me why not. Tell me why not. Tell me why not. Why not? What’s wrong with that reader? Tell me why not. Why not? Tell me more than the maaseh. Tell me more. The hechrech, what’s the hechrech? Tell me more. Tell me better, no? It’s not, because now anyway it’s all muktzah. So what’s the point to tell me what Rishonah, bigger chiddush, who cares? What’s the big deal? Rishonah, you want to tell me what was in the beginning, you hear? So what’s the point of telling me what was in the Rishonah? What’s the point of that? If they have to tell me a bigger chiddush, what's the neged? But if the pshat is telling me what the takanah was and how they were metaken, she's telling me a beautiful thing. You should know the takanah was said for tevel. The takanah was said for this socket and for that socket. This, this was never a takanah. Nechemia and Chalam never discussed this. Why is it called ...? What are you talking? Where, what? What are you talking? That means at the end, at the end they came and said ... either according to one ... or the other. In other words, when the Tosafos is addressing—listen to me—those Tosafos is addressing the pshat in the words of Bereshonah that they were matir three keilim, or is Tosafos addressing what the Bereshonah is here with three keilim? It is this and only this, and not karis the Tosafos. He's telling you pshat what the takanah was. Right? Meaning what? That we shouldn't come and say our big deal. What Tosafos is saying, no, Bereshonah, is that there were three keilim nitlim; it's these three keilim, because on karis meaning need a heter.

We never needed a heter for. Huh? That's a ... You don't need. So if he's saying pshat, this is the words. Okay, ... There's kelim hamutarim that it's not muktzah in the first place. And then there's kelim hamutarim that what? Say good, no? The kelim hamutarim that you need a heter. Kelim hamutarim need a heter. If the taich is that the kelim need, certain kelim need a heter, yeah, you with me or you...? That makes sense. That makes sense. Right? Everybody, right? That's how ... looks. Okay. Let's say they were matir certain kelim, and certain kelim in the pshat is not mutar, certain kelim need a heter for. All right? So then the kelim, you have to know what it's for, right? Could be matir it l'tzorech gufoi, l'tzorech mekomoi, right? Yeah, you with me? Again, if pshat is, they never assered kelim hamutarim, right? They never assered kelim hamutarim. So one second. So these kelim, which we need heterim for, l'tzorech gufoi, l'tzorech mekomoi, I, they never matir these kelim. What's the teretz? Again, let me just explain. When they assered these three kelim, okay, when they matir these three kelim, the pshat is because kelim hamutarim don't have muktzah. Or keilim hamutarim could have muktzah. So therefore they will make a, if keilim hamutarim could have muktzah, okay? So then l'tzorech gufo it becomes a heter, l'tzorech mekomo it becomes a heter, michama l'tzel becomes a heter. But if you look at it the other way, and you say, be'emes keilim hamutarim don't have a problem of muktzah. Keilim mutarim don't have a problem of muktzah. So then this, that we say only l'tzorech gufo, and only l'tzorech mekomo, then what is it? It becomes an issurim now. It's the opposite way. Are we saying like this: be'emes the keilim are aser, and we're going to take off from the issur l'tzorech gufo it's mutar, l'tzorech mekomo it's mutar, michama l'tzel is mutar. Or the pshat is like this: be'emes the keilim started off mutar anyway. But even a keli which doesn't have muktzah, we're only going to be matir it l'tzorech gufo, we're only going to be matir l'tzorech mekomo, we're only going to be matir michama l'tzel. It's not pshat that there's muktzah on it. We asser the tiltul when it comes to l'tzorech. Here, I'll give you another example. Here, a person has a—let's say we pasken today all keilim are mutar, right? A person wants to move, shelo l'tzorech. Are you going to come and tell me that the cheifetz became muktzah? No. Let me tell you the lashon. I'm telling you, a fork is a fork muktzah on Shabbos. The answer is no. That's the whole point. It doesn't change move there because whatever you need. You want to say כלי שמלאכתו לאיסור, we are aser certain uses. Why the hammer looks to you? It's not. We aser certain uses. It doesn't change every פרט. You want to know something? Here, I'll tell you even a spoon. Here, take a spoon. Is a spoon muktzah on Shabbos? Not only is it not muktzah on Shabbos, it's not even—it's what Tosafos talks— you know what? A cup. A cup. Is a cup muktzah on Shabbos? It was never—there wasn't even what to talk about muktzah. Are you allowed to be מטלטל שלא לצורך? No. That's what the Rambam paskens, שלא לצורך. I tell you the truth. You think I'm lying to you. You think I'm lying to you. That's not what the שולחן—

Person is sholel tzair. How can a cup that's not muksa, was never muksa, nothing, you and I will be metaltel sholel tzair. Why? ... Not muksa. You understand what I'm saying? Again, again, again. You understand what I wanted, huh? You see where I'm getting to. How can a person take a cup which Rakoish says to us, never, never, nothing. All of a sudden, you, who I take it, sholel tzair. You want to know something? If you're metaltel sholel tzair, yeah? Huh? Could you make a basis with that? No. Let's say I took a key, you hear? I don't know about this. You took a key, you hear, sholel tzair. Let's say it's a spoon, and you put it on a plate, right? You put it on a plate, and the plate is mutar. The plate is mutar, but this is sholel tzair. Does it become a basis now to the muksa? Muksa there, it's just a cup. Tess, are you listening to me? Okay, sorry. At the beginning of the shiur, I worked with you and I was fighting you, ... and I was bothering you. And you were trying to think to yourself, why is he bothering you? I thought, what's the difference? The truth is, I didn't even get to the ... The ... discussed it, openly discussed it. פירוש ... from this. That there's certain ... which is not even what to talk about. There's nothing. I'm showing you Tosafos says such a thing. Tosafos says that we never, when we say kol hakeilim nitlin, it's not talking about kaisos. Why? Because we wouldn't even have what to discuss. So I said, pashut you learn what Tosafos means. There's not chiddush, not much of a chiddush in that. That's all Tosafos means. No, Tosafos means the ... Tosafos is saying like this: what we say, there's a heter of keilim nitlin b'Shabbos, three keilim are nitlin b'Shabbos, says Tosafos, I'm not even discussing cups anymore, because you don't need a heter for. Cups are 100% mutar. So I ask you, a cup which is 100% mutar, there's no ... to talk about. They never asked ... You can't. It's not even shayach to be oser ... on it. If I would take it for no reason, am I allowed or not allowed? The Rambam's just clear, not allowed. That's what we pasken today. The Mishnah Berurah brings it down l'halacha. You're not allowed to play. You're not allowed to play with forks just to fiddle around with forks. That's my ... Once it's muktzah, how can it turn to aser? And the answer is, it's not the muktzah that's mechayev it. We never permitted you to take a not muktzah to ... This you understood? Yeah. No, no, no, no. Keilim themselves. When we say, don't need to be matir, that's kairoi, that's kaiser. This is keilim shloisha nislin with a heter. It's a special heter by these three keilim, right? So what? This is not. It's a kairoi, it's a takkanah. There was never pshat they have to only be matir, which means there was never muktzah in the first place. So then what happens to a keli shemelachto l'heter? A keli shemelachto l'heter, yeah, you with me? What happens to a keli shemelachto l'heter on tzorech gufoi, l'tzorech mekomo, l'chamal l'tzel? I thought all keilim, the keilim, they were matir all keilim. The teretz is that the keilim was always mutar, I'm telling you. There was never a special—they took off restrictions of a keli shemelachto l'heter. Once it's a keli shemelachto l'heter, then it's mutar, right? So then the pshat is that they came along and they said, keli shemelachto l'heter, certain times we will asser you from using. Not that the cheftza is asser, that you. So the pshat is we can never asser a keli shemelachto...

But we could tell you, that's what Rashi means over here. Rashi is talking tiru b'tiltul. It wasn't matir the cheftza; it's not a question of muktzah. It's a question of tiltul. And what's the pshat in that? Because the whole problem is you might be shema yavi l'hotzi. If you look at the whole takanah, it begins for one reason: hotzaah. What do you have to be muktzah for? What do you need to make the cheftza muktzah, make the gavra not allowed to move it, and that's all? We have more cases of usages, mekomoi. It's more cases of usages. So according to that, if that's true, then mechamer l'tzel is not an issue anymore, because we don't care about the cheftza. It's you. Who cares about mechamer l'tzel? That's a pshat. Chachamim says you missed the boat. That's why it doesn't make a difference. Once you're matir—let's say, mother shech—if we're matir mekomoi, right, if we're matir mekomoi, then we can be matir mechamer l'tzel also. What's the difference? I mean, huh? If the pshat is we're telling the person, right, the cheftza is not muktzah, right? We're telling the person we'll let you move it, right? In letting you move it, there's no special chiluk between mekomoi and mechamer l'tzel. I mean, who cares? We don't look at the cheftza. Issue anymore? But why are you allowing only ...? Yeah, why are you making...? No, no, because there is a chiluk between ... You see what I'm saying? The Mekorim and the Chamotel are saying, because what's the difference why you want to do it? What's the difference what the tzorech is if the chefetz is not the issue anyway? According to whom? I tried. ... I'm telling you. ... the issue is the person is not being ... I'm telling you, what's the pshat? Once you have a tzorech mekomo — what does mekomo mean? You don't need — it doesn't do the kli; it's your tzorech ha-mekomo. It isn't tzorech. What's the difference? What's the difference? Once you matir tzorech mekomo, the Chachamim tell us ... That keman d'amar? It has to be. What's the difference? Aval, ... Rava comes along and says, I'm not looking at the person. Keilim shemelachtan l'issur is the pshat is, keilim shemelachtan l'heter is the chefetz. In hilchos — in the chefetz — there's a lot of nafka minas. There's tzorech gufo of the chefetz, then there's another chiddush called tzorech mekomo of the chefetz, and then there's something called mechama l'tzel of the chefetz. Says the Gemara, says the— That's kashya. Which rabba do you mean? Why is it the whole thing? Because the rabba in the previous one, whatever it is. What's a kashya? What was Rabba's kashya? Rabba's kashya is here. Look at the lashon of Rabba. He says like this: Amar lei Rabba, michti, hitiru katani, hitiru katani. Oh, so what's shavi hitiru? Hitiru means the cheftza they were matir. Once you're matir the cheftza, so ... That's the taich of ... Hitiru the cheftza. Once you're matir the cheftza, ... No, because ... tells them to do the cheftza. It's not a patur of the cheftza. No? It has to call ... and the hitiru, they were matir ... A special heter. No, no, no. It says a special heter, it says. In Rabba, you, that's the heter, you. In ...

Right. In ... the chayfetz, if they would hit you, they would hit you with the chayfetz. He says he doesn't see ... from the koilel, because ... is called tzorach of the chayfetz. ... that it's have to use the chayfetz on Shabbos. We can't ourselves not using the chayfetz. So therefore we have a special chiddush. Heiru another time. That's why we have a special heter for us. I'm not using the chayfetz. I'm not using the chayfetz. That's it, no? That's ... I'm saying for later. That's not called using it. I'm saving it. Usage of the chayfetz, yeah. They're arguing on two different points. They're coming from different nekudos. From the ... we learned this, that this is called a tzorech in the chayfetz. I know. I know. Beautiful, beautiful. Yes, I will. I'm here. That's the halacha, muksa, but they hitiru. How much were they matir? What were they matir? We said yesterday that there's two ways to learn the Gemara: that even the gimel keilim, hanitalin, if the question, if the pshat was those keilim were aser also part of gezeiras muksa and then they were matir, well those keilim were never muksa in the first place. It was never muksa. The gimel keilim hanitalin was never muksa in the first place. Tosfos explains, and he says like this: what's the case of gimel keilim hanitalin? Tosfos: lo chashiv ela keilim d'lav bnei kibul. Notice, says Tosfos, the Tosfos מקצר. But the only cases of what? D'lav bnei kibul. Yeah? They're not bnei kibul. Those are the cases. Oh, but since they have bnei kibul, seems Tosfos to say, that's a vadai, vadai, vadai, ein shum tzad baYad shel muksa. Mashenkin the cases that the Mishnah, the Gemara does give, the gimel keilim hanitalin, are cases of sakinim. That's how Tosfos explains. Okay. Notice that one of the things that Rashi explains on Zehuma, Rashi doesn't say it's משום דסכין. Tosfos says that what? Ela keilim d'lav bnei kibul. But the case of Zehuma listaron, kav gedolah, does it have a beis kibul? I don't know. It's interesting, right? Tosfos made it sound like there's no beis kibul. I understand the kaptigel doesn't have a beis kibul. Unless you learn that it's talking about a cup that doesn't have, like a flat, like a flat. You know, sometimes you have a cup, yeah? Could be, and I'm being medayek over here, could be that the reason why this is used דווקא to take off the dirt, because it's not a regular kapit that you use for food. A regular kapit that you use for food has a beis kibul. Just to take the top off maybe doesn't need a beis kibul. See? In other words, I'm saying, what is the zehuma listaron? He comes and he says it's kaptigelal, shemisalkin bo zehumaso kedeirah. So I ask you a question. Tosafos says he's not keisu without beis kibul. I thought cup has a beis kibul, no? Doesn't a spoon have a beis kibul? It has to be kapot beli beis kibul. And that's why Rashi says that it's used for what? For the top, for brushing. It's not used for... like it's like a cup that... Good. Now, I want to show you that the Ritva learns not like that. The Ritva explains...

Zehuma astarin. Zehuma listrin, yep. Ritva. Ritva explains, shemevashlim bah. Zehuma listrin is something that they use to... You see it? It's on the second paragraph. Zehuma listarin. What is that, says the Ritva? Shemevashlim bah. You're cooking it. So it has to have a bet kibul, right? It has to have a bet kibul. If it doesn't have a bet kibul, then it doesn't hold the thing. But actually, umarim bah tavshil. And you're gonna say that it has no bet kibul? You would say... What's called a bet kibul? It holds the rice. It would drip off. And you use it to cook shemevashlim bah, to mix, but to cook in it. I know, I'm telling you, I'm not saying it's a kaf. So the Ritva argues, Rivis is not a spoon, it's a pot. I'm telling you, shemashlimba. Huh? This is a bed kli. This is a bed kibul. What's the difference, a bed kibul? Yeah, all I'm showing you is, it's not Rashi. It's not Rashi. I'm showing you from the Ritva it's not Rashi. It's not Rashi. I know. He says shemashlimba. He says, v'kayra u'l'kedeira. V'kayra u'l'kedeira. That's what you do is, from there you mix it from a kaira to kedeira. It's a bowl. It's a type of bowl. See, Rashi, whereas you take the top off with it. So the top, you take the top off with it, you can come and say it doesn't have a bed kibul. But if the spoon is holding it, it has a bed kibul. So the kash is according to the Ritva, l'choira, according to the Ritva, if it has a bed kibul, then why is it different than kaira to kaira? Huh? If Tosafos learned that kaira to kaira are bed kibul, and ein b'zeh משום צד מוקצה, so Rashi, so I tell you maybe you can stick Rashi into it. You could. You could say that it's a kapi'ach ein bo bed kibul. You can play around with Rashi. I'd rather not, but I could hear it. But the Ritva says clearly it's a melashlimba, it's a pot. So then that's the kash. So mother's kash. Teretz to every pot, even when you're not mevashel in it, it's not muktzeh. We learned it. Any keli shemelachto l'issur, right now you're making it suitable for the kli, it's mutar. We learned it. Okay. But the point is, how could you come and tell me there's different kairus now? According to the Ritva, then the pshat is it's a regular cup, it's a regular plate. Yeah, but according to the Ritva it's a regular plate, so why give me three funny cases? Say plate. What do you need these cases for? Kairus. It's no different. See, bishlama according to Tosafos, we looked for cases which אין בהם בית קיבול. According to the Ritva, that it has a beis kibul, why do we bring these three cases? What, a knife, a this, a that? Right, I mean that's—right, right, everything. Yeah, so let's—yeah, I know what you're going to say, because I'm going to read the next line with you together. No, no, different girsa of the words. Not—no, it's just a different zehuma lishna. It's not—I know, and he has zehuma lishna, but it's the same thing. Zehuma lishna, zehuma lishna, it's the same.

Question how you would pronounce the name of the pot. If you take a look carefully, I told you at the beginning of the shiur that there's two reasons why karot and kasot and karov are belisafek mutar. So first thing I told you, because, pashut, there's no other way to live. There's no other way to live on Shabbos, right? So we said, b'meila, ein adam medaber v'ein al zeh shum muktzah. That, b'ais, is another sevara in the Rishonim. Karot and kasot, it's not called a cup, since the food is in it. Remember the sugya of meduchah? Because batel to the food. Ah, because batel to the food. It's a kli; it's a kli also pshita, according to the Ritva. And where do I get this from? Let's read the next line of the Ritva. Says the Ritva, Pshita shehaysa muteres, d'oicha tafshil bah. Even this case is pshita, meaning this case that we're saying that it's called matchilin b'vashlin bo, it's pshita it's mutar when—what?—when the food is in it. Why? D'feiruhi l'ochel k'sefreish min ha'il. No, you think— This kli was never meant to keep food in it. This kli is not meant—he says clearly that this kli is meant l'arois mi'kedeirah l'kedeirah. It's only a transfer pot, you see? Notice that the Ritva learns that what's the case? That with this, transfer food from one pot to another. So it was never meant to stay there. That's the teretz. That's the teretz of Rashi. Exactly. That's why Rashi can learn spoon; it's not a kashya. It depends what type. A spoon, which is not meant—a spoon which is not meant to have the food in it, says Rashi, but rather to push the food away, so it's not become batel to the food. That's how you interpret Rashi. That's how the pot is also, like, for the food. Right, that's the Ritva's sevara, because it's not meant to keep the food in it. Now, what— we jumped a few steps. That's why you don't see what I meant. It's very simple, okay? The Ritva is telling me, he's learning when you have a beis kibul, it's very nice. It's not what we're talking about. One of these kelim, this kli, I believe, has a beis kibul. Yes. I show you the Ritva that learns that one of these three kelim does have a beis kibul. Rashi's Rashi. Okay, you go in Rashi means the spoon has a beis kibul, okay. So is that the best way to learn Rashi? Not really, because every kaf has a beis kibul. The word kaf means a hand. It means a hand. Yes, mashu, yes, mashu. Okay, good. I think licholim l'taretz is to believe beis kibul, fine. Again, so comes along the Ritva, and the Ritva says, Hey, hey, hey, this is with a beis kibul. So then I ask you a question, so then it's no different than any other kaf. Why do you have to give me such a case for? Why do I need a case? And also another question: according to the Ritva, does it come out that only this is asur? This is mutar and everything else is asur? I mean, everything's mutar. Anything with any pot is mutar, so what's he talking about? What's the difference between zehuma, ashtein, and any other pot? And every pot's mutar, right? It says clearly, you would see, he says a very good thing: when the food is in there, it becomes batel to the food. When the food is not in there, to the pot. When it's not in there, it doesn't become batel. And I'm explaining you why, because it's the type of kli that he says that shemevashlin bo u'ma'arin bo, atashlin l'kaira u'lkedeira. It was never meant to stay in there. It's only temporary. Therefore it never became batel. The more you see it's a kli which is meant to keep the food in there. Now, bakabot. Maybe I have to say raksha too. I was like, see, I could keep it. Teres is not meant to keep the food. What's the bakot? It's a bakot to the food. It doesn't work the other way around. It can't be on a plate. We spoke from the Ritva, right? But a plate doesn't become batel to food, but rather the opposite. But before Shabbos, according to the Maharam, everything that's food on the... Before Shabbos, you didn't have food in this plate. No, I'm saying, since omed, since it's omed to have food in it, we don't look at it as a kli, kli. We look at it as a kli wrapper of food. We spoke about this already in old svara. We said this is an old... This is the Ritva from before. You see how it comes in here. That's why he says, kemo shepirashti, this... says... This is beautiful. This is so... Yeah, that's beautiful. Such pshat, to learn up the pshat in the Gemara. The Ritva. He's actually good... According to the Ritva, the pot is meant to use just as a, yesterday called, side vessel, temporary.

Just to get from one thing to the other, a spoon is just meant to get the food to your mouth. That's all it's meant. Okay, this question is kapit is the same thing. So how can I put Rashi and the Ritva together? Because the Ritva's case is a case where what? Where it's only for bringing one plate to another. This is kapit is the same thing. Huh? I'm saying this pot was not made for that. Yeah, but obviously it was type of pot. Obviously. So the spaghetti is with a hole. You're not going to put spaghetti in it. It's not made for it. It's not made for it. I mean, say in him, Rashi's not muchach the Ritva. But once you say this for the Ritva, I can stick it back into Rashi. Or he's right. There is a chiluk between a spoon and a pot. A pot, you could come and say a sevara that a pot is not meant to stay, is not called a kli for... This is definitely meant to eating, and that's how it's done. Okay, good. Now, this is Ritva number one, nekudah number one. Beautiful. Rashi, kaf. Everybody with me? Eliezer, you with me? Good, yeah? Rafi? Okay. Now let's see the next point. Let's see the next point in the Ritva. Ketiru lechazer, ketiru. Mai ketiru lechazer? ... leheter gufo. Okay. Now notice that the lashon of the Ritva is a little different. What does our Gemara—our Gemara says, it says l'tzorech gufo, and here he says lheter gufo. Sorry, the Ritva says you have to change the girsa. You have to say l'tzorech gufo. On the bottom they say that. I don't know if it's so pashut. I don't know. Tell me, how would you say the girsa of heter gufai here? It's here because of the tirutz. This is in the... Right? And the girsa, the ritzfa is leheter gufai. Leheter gufai. Leheter gufai. Yeah. Heter gufai could be referring to the... I'm not reading the ritzfa. The ritzfa has the girsa here, alma baya, heteru davar shemelachto l'heter gufai. So there's some guy in the bottom. Yeah, some guy. Some guy in Israel. Some guy who worked out the ritzvah for them. Not Rav Kook himself. It's a few guys. Don't get me wrong. No, not Kook again. They hired some chacham from Yerushalayim. They paid him salary. This is the Maggid in Yeshivat, when we were in the Mir Yeshiva. They just started putting out these Rishonim with the stuff on the bottom. I mean, when I was 13, 14, we never had Rishonim with stuff on the bottom. So much different, the stuff on the bottom. Yeah, they do. They fix it. But I'll tell you, you know, sometimes they only magiah, sometimes they write a lot. Take the Ritva on Yevamos, written by a talmid chacham called Aaron Yaakov. He was the young guy who passed away. He was a talmid chacham. Every time you saw a Ritva, ... take a Ritva. They used to call it the Yevamos telephone book. I'm serious. There's only one volume. There's two of them. There's three of them here. Notice the lashon, lahatter gufai. Lahatter gufai. Right? I think the pshat. The chiluk between the two girsaos is—and by the way, this style of Torah, this what I'm telling you right now, is the derech of what I'm doing now, Reb Nachum. This I picked up from Reb Yisroel. It's not Reb Nachum. Reb Nachum would say the chiluk between the girsaos in the Rishonim and the Gemara. Huh? This is Reb Nachum. This is typical Reb Nachum. That's the difference. Heter gufai is—what's heter? What does heter gufai mean? How do you translate the word heter gufai? And the teretz is, heter means the kli is mutar l'gufai. Heter gufai. There's a heter on the guf of the kli. On the guf of the kli. Huh? The girsa of the Ritva, when it says in our Gemara, l'taher gufai, the Ritva has a girsa heter gufai. So I'm telling you it's possible—heter gufai. Not abaye. By the way, we learned Abaye, right? So we learned Rava is heter kli, right.

Tzarich means you have a tzorech to use gufoi. Heter gufa means we're looking at the kli. Leheter, to be matir it, gufoi. It's heter is on the kli. Tzorech is the person. We'll be matir you to do it l'tzorech gufoi. That's here. Then he says like this. Amar lei Rava. Now, he says like this. Michti, hitiru ketani. Okay, the next is not much of a chiddush. ... ad she... Okay, now. Amar lei Rav, michti, hitiru ketani. Mai l'tzorech gufoi, mai l'tzorech makom. Remember yesterday I asked you, what's the pshat, hitiru? Just say, what's the difference what the tzorech is? And I was medayek yesterday, what's the hitiru? Hitiru ketani, right, means it's like it says the word hitiru. Says the Ritva, what does that mean? It just means once you're matir l'tzorech gufoi, so then it's mutar altogether. What do you mean, hitiru ketani? Again, in the lashon of the Gemara, and we grabbed it asked this yesterday. I see the Ritva's asking. Yesterday, when the Gemara says hitiru ketani, comes along the Gemara and says once we say hitiru, so what's the difference l'tzorech gufoi or l'tzorech makom? So I asked you yesterday, what does it mean, hitiru ketani? What does that mean, hitiru? Just say once tzorech, it's mutar. What do you mean, hitiru ketani? And that's what we said yesterday, remember? We said this yesterday, right? We said yesterday that something in the word hitiru tells me that it has to be l'tzorech gufoi and l'tzorech makom. Okay, so the Ritva holds differently. Peirush, lav milsa. Once you matir it, it has nothing to do with the word hitiru. Hitiru has nothing—it's not because we use the word hitiru. Gemara is saying, if it is mutar, the ... צריכין ... Now, hitiru katani. That's what you say. The Ritva says differently. It's machlokes you and the Ritva, I'm going to tell you. And the funny thing is, we said this yesterday. Who asked the question? Well, yesterday we wouldaed this. What is the word hitiru? Hitiru katani. He said the word hitiru, and once you say the word hitiru, all it has to mean, says the Ritva, peirush, lav davka. Lav milsa d'hitiru daik lei Rabba. It's not from the word hitiru that Rabba's medaik. What's bothering the Ritva? The Gemara is mashma that it is from the word hitiru, right? D'ha lo daik lishna d'hitiru hachi, because there's no diyuk in the word hitiru. What does the word hitiru? Don't teach me anything. Ela Rabba misvara asa alah, d'leka laflugi beinaihu klal. But rather, Rabba is coming only mi'svara. It has nothing to do with katani or lo katani. It has nothing to do with the nusach of the Gemara. It has nothing to do with the lashon of the Mishnah. It has to do with the svara. What's the svara? Because ... I understand, but he asks the kasha, and he has to say lav davka. D'keivan shehitiru lishtamesh בהם לצורך גופן, ולא תלתה אותם, לכך ראוי להתיר גם כן שיהיו יכולים לסלקם משום, דלאחר תשמישן לצורך מקומן, כי צורך מקומן כך הוא, צורך לשבת צורך גופן. It's the same tzorech. What's the difference? He's saying it's a svara. Explain the svara. Yeah, but the Rishonim say this. He's not arguing on the Gemara. He's just saying like this: when the Gemara says hitiru katani, don't think that something in the word hitiru is making me say that there's lashon of gufei, lashon of ... I asked you a kasha yesterday, and I said we were medayek this yesterday, and we did say a pshat yesterday. What was the pshat we said yesterday? How did we learn the Gemara, hitiru katani. Everything else is asur before that. We were medayek, hitiru. One says matir. Why don't you just chazer it the first time? Hitiru. When it comes and says that they were matir, right? So what's the pshat that they were matir? What's the pshat that they were matir? Comes along Abaye and learns that what? It's talking about the person. Comes along Rava and says, hitiru is mashma the kli. Hitiru katani, they were matir. What was Rava's diyuk? We said this yesterday, that the kli, hitiru is mashma they were matir the kli, and in hilchos kli there's no chiluk between tzorech gufo u'makomo. So then is hitiru davka lav davka? You see, we were medayek this yesterday. That's what I want to show you from the Ritva. I want to show you that the Ritva is discussing our question, that the Ritva made the same diyuk. Again, when the Gemara says hitiru...

Right? Says, hitiru, comes along Abaye, and Abaye says what? Nu, come, nu. Comes along Abaye and he says, patur gufei, not tzarich mekanah. Says Rava, no, hitiru katani. Says the Rif, what does that have to do with the hitiru? You don't see them, tzarich mekanah. It doesn't say that. You should say, mali patur gufei, mali tzarich mekanah. Don't bring it back to the lashon of the Mishnah, right? And then the Rif says, and the Chanani, you have to say lav davka. What's pshat lav davka? Yesterday we spoke about this, because we said the chiluk between Abaye and Rava is, what's the hitiru? Hitiru, Rashi has to come and explain that it doesn't mean hitiru the kli. Hitiru is patur. Notice the word in Rashi, hitiru? Patur, because that's not the pshat of shani hitiru. What's the pshat of shani hitiru? The kli. Comes along Abaye and he tells Rava—sorry, comes along Rava and he tells Abaye, don't learn hitiru and then you have to stick in the word patur. Hitiru, daka means the kli, and once we learn it's the kli, mali gufei. Ah, and when the Gemara says hitiru, is hitiru katani davka? Yes. Davka. Good, Eliezer, pshat, pshat. What's your name? Daniel. Comes along the Rif, El amar Ula, chazru v'hitiru mechamer shel, פירוש, שאינו אלא לצורך הכלי. Yeah. The Gemara, the next Rif, El amar Ula—right, it's not Ula again, it's a mistake, it's supposed to be Abaye, right? El amar, seventy-three, it's supposed to be Abaye, right? Seventy-three, it has to be Abaye. Rava, right? It has to be Rava, right? Good? Yeah, it's a mistake, okay. It's not—El amar is a mistake, okay. Chazru v'hitiru mechamer shel, פירוש... She'eino ella l'tzorech hakli. Yeah? There's a chiluk between why tzorech gufo u'mekomo and tzorech, but the kli has a tzorech in it. You see, it's not your tzorech, but there's a tzorech hakli. Listen to what he says. L'kavanasa k'dei shelo yiga, k'dei l'kamor. L'chein פירש Rashi ז״ל, כל שלא לצורך כלל, לא יתירו לטלטל אפילו כלים שמלאכתם להיתר. Meaning, the Ritva is trying to say that when we say michama l'tzel, that you're not a new kli. Michama l'tzel, you can't come and say it's called a shelo l'tzorech. It's called a tzorech hakli. That's what the Ritva wants. But this is what the Ritva says. Exactly. Again, what the Ritva wants is like, michama l'tzel comes along the Gemara and is matir it, so what? It'll be matir. Good. Says the Ritva, what's the heter that we're going to give? The heter we're going to give it is called tzorech hakli. To come and say we will matir tzorech gufo and tzorech mekomo, and then we will matir even shelo l'tzorech כלל — we'll, כלל, we'll, כלל — that we're not going to say. We're not going to do that. Huh? Says the Ritva — I'm saying the Ritva says we're not going to do that. Listen. I'm telling you what the Ritva says. We're not going to come and say that it's mutar stam shelo l'tzorech. What are we going to come and say? It's mutar michama l'tzel. Stam l'tzorech and shelo l'tzorech is taka asur. Are you allowed to move the ...? So then why michama l'tzel? Because that's not called shelo l'tzorech. I think the Gemara says clearly that michama l'tzel is called shelo l'tzorech. The Gemara always says it. Shelo l'tzorech, for example, michama l'tzel — that's the Gemara says it. He says that they.