Halachos of Canvas Sukkahs: Windblown Walls, Secure Ties, Lavud, and Porch Railings

Transcript

Yeah, yeah. That's why people are busy. Probably some people don't even know what happened. My yard, I can't... I can't. Use the pilot. No, no. Someone should bring down something, that he says, but don't worry about it, because... Right, you shouldn't worry. You shouldn't think that who knows what's going to happen to you because of it, right? What happens if it did go out because of that? Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. Where's Mr. Burry? What happened? What went out? Eventually. Yeah, see, this... scares them to no end. No, but the problem was it went out once a year. Okay, so you have to do it this year. ... I understand. I understand women, and I... it's all part of this culture, I promise. I thought you could use a nightlight for that. Okay, rabosai, tonight, be'ezras Hashem yisbarach, we're going to speak about... You can't use a nightlight for that thing? It has to be a candle? Why are you talking about, for your side, you mean? Not for your side. For the Yom Kippur. Just use a candle. Okay. In the canvas sukkahs. Like I said, I used to use the wooden sukkahs that fit my porch. My talmid used to come to build it, and it was such a beautiful sukkah. And then we came to, I guess, I don't want to say galus, but we're here, and I'm in this mini apartment with a mini porch. And there's no way that I could get my sukkah, the beautiful sukkah they had on this porch, vas tut men? So I went and I borrowed a canvas sukkah, and then I started worrying, canvas, yeah canvas, and then I started hearing comments, because if you look around, everyone has a wooden sukkah besides Rabbi Wolpin. We're the only canvas sukkah in the whole Westgate. Everyone's is practical, because everyone's trying to move out, so they need a big one. So, punk fakert, canvas can't expand. Ah, so by me it was practical the other way. I didn't want to go buy a sukkah, so I borrowed an old sukkah, and there happens to have been there was a canvas. Okay, so what's the halacha in a canvas sukkah? Yeah canvas, not canvas. And the second part of the shailah is, if yeah canvas, or the other way, if not canvas, maybe Westgate, the bissel is different, the Westgate, the porch, something. Let's talk about the canvas, and then we'll talk about Westgate, the canvas sukkah on the porch. Makes a very big nafka mina. I'm soon show you. So if you look at siman tof reish lamed, סעיף י'. Tof reish lamed, 186, סעיף י'. עושה סוכתו בין האילנות, והאילנות תפנס לה. So he made a sukkah between trees, and the trees are the tefachim. So what's wrong? Dilma karka. Problem is— Movement, movement of the walls. How היו חזקים, so if they were very strong, אי שקשר אותם, he tied them, וחיזק אותם, he made them strong, עד שלא תהא הרוח מצויה. רוח מצויה means a common wind, which we'll discuss, because in Westgate it's very, very windy, not normal windy in Westgate. Terrible. It's wind which, you would think it has to do with storms. It's wind. That's the way they made the buildings parallel, and it's open, and it's unbelievable. Especially my corner apartment, it's open. You have no idea what—you have no idea the wind. The wind in my sukkah, it's a nest that my sukkah survives. So, רוח מצויה. So עד שלא תהא רוח מצויה מניד אותה תמיד. תמיד, you see the word תמיד? הרוח מצויה מניד אותה תמיד. Now, ומילא בינו האווירים. Why, what's that? says the Mishnah Berurah, because you're using the branches and the anafim, so therefore it has to be filled up, because otherwise the walls are not complete. They're spaces. They're open spaces. So, מילא בין האווירים, בטבן ובקש, כדי שלא תניד אותה הרוח. וקשר אותם, and he tied them up, הרי זה כשרה.

This is kash. Okay? Why? Because even though, even though it's moving around, aval l'maaseh, he tied it up. He tied it up. Okay. Therefore, says the Shulchan Aruch, from here we deduce, we take out that you shouldn't make a sukkah from yerios, from curtains, okay, of pishtan, which is canvas. That's mamash our case. V'loy kanim. You shouldn't make them without sticks, even though you tied them well. Zimnin d'menatkei, because maybe it'll get untied. The wind blows, it gets untied. V'lav adaitei, and you won't notice it, which happens sometimes; those strings get untied. V'havei mechitzah she'einah yecholah la'amod b'ruach metzuyah, so then it turns into a mechitzah which cannot stand in a ruach metzuyah, and it becomes a problem. In case you do want to use these canvas curtains, haro'eh tzarich la'asos b'sadinim, and if you do want to do it, tov, it would be a good thing, sheya'arei b'mechitzos, that you should weave it in the mechitzos, kanim b'pachos mi'gimel, sticks, right? Mechitzos kanim b'pachos mi'gimel. Huh? We used to have a canvas sukkah, it went up, now we have wood, so he made sticks into the ground. Okay, so we're going to discuss this, okay? Every three tefachim? Less than three tefachim. How much movement is a problem? We're going to discuss. That's tonight's shiur. Tonight's shiur is going to be this discussion. Okay, so if you look carefully, we learned two halachos. One is about a tree. And that the movement of the tree becomes a problem. What's the lashon? Shelo tehei ruach metzuyah menidah osa tamid, that it shouldn't move it constantly. So what do you do? If you tie it, it's kosher. And here too, al kein ein nachin la'asos, the mechitzes. But you're tying it. I thought you said that by the tree it's good. Here you should, it's still a problem. Why? Because it's going to move around, menatki, it might get untied, and you're not going to notice it. And if you do want to do it, then you should make kanim befachos migimel. What's the ma'alah of kanim befachos migimel? says the Mishnah Berurah, because even if you don't have those yeri'os, at least you have the kanim. The kanim are the walls, and it becomes kosher. This, rabosai, is the source of trouble with the canvas. This is where it comes from. So if anybody screams and yells, 'Canvas is not kosher,' it's this. This is where it comes from. Because the Mechaber, the Ran, Shulchan Aruch says clearly that yeri'os, curtains, are a problem for what, rabosai? For ruach, menatki. You should use them unless you do a certain solution, which we'll discuss in greater length later on as we progress in the year. Okay. So this is it, right? Okay. If you look at the ma'idim, of course, he's always the one that's me'orer the chumros and problems. Not that it's not a good sefer; it's a very good sefer, but it's very much his style. But it's interesting, in the beginning he tries to bring out that it's not a problem. In siman pei daled. He discusses how it technically shouldn't be a problem, especially if you tie it well. People do use it. They do make canvas sukkahs. Maybe they hold that the Shulchan Aruch wasn't talking about our canvas sukkahs, because our canvas sukkahs are tied so well that you don't have to worry. And then he brings down, nevertheless, nevertheless, since the Shulchan Aruch mevuar issur migezeirah, therefore, mikomakom raui lehachmir, v'lo lishtamesh b'sadinim. So this is the siman pei-daled. So everybody should know that all the yeshiva light who are yelling and screaming and raising issues about canvas sukkahs and putting the canvas sukkah people out of business, they're yelling because of this: raui lehachmir v'lo lishtamesh b'sadinim klal, keivan sheb'Shulchan Aruch mevuar ha'issur migezeirah shelo natik lestan l'hakel, vchein sasmu ha'achronim. Oh, really? I didn't know. Which acharonim is he talking about? Okay. So we say canvas is like the curtains. It is. It's a curtain. Canvas is the curtain, okay? How do we know that? You know that I'm not—what? How do we know?

That's what it can. Maybe it means like a sheet, like a bed sheet. Same idea. Moves around, same idea. Can be leather, yeah. I will show you that he's not saying wrong. There's a little teshuva for a maiseh which I'm going to show you, which I don't know if it's in the sefer. I don't believe it's in the sefer, but it was printed when I was in Yeshiva Staten Island, and I saved it over the years. I saved it. So, the Yeshiva Zatzal talks about that Morty Tendler, his grandchild, discussed this sefer with him. Maybe today the canvas is much thicker than the yerios of the Shulchan Aruch, and Rav Moshe dismisses it, and he says, What do you think, they were so foolish that they couldn't know how to make an ohel? What do you mean, you think they only know how to do sheets and put them into beautiful... Yeshiva Zatzal. He says, But I don't believe, he says, I don't believe that they didn't know how to make... That's Rav Moshe could hear. I love this. He brings down a sevara from his einikel. V'efshar k'tainas Nechdi Hanal — Hanal meaning Morty, if you see the beginning of the teshuva — sheheim asku b'yerios pishtan. They were doing yerios pishtan, which is dvarim kalim, and it moved around. Yeah, this is not our heavy canvas. V'lefichach lo hayah tzarich l'haskin shir. I'll show you what he means. He's referring to a piece of a Mishnah Berurah, which we'll learn a little bit later. Anyways, בקיצור, he says... one second, here, one second. Ein hechrech. Second. Oh, the misdabesh gam b'zman hamechaber, hayu mumchim sheyad'u eich la'asos ha'ohelim tovim. He says, I don't buy that, that the case of the mechaber, they didn't know how to make an ohel. V'af al pi kein kasav d'ein nachon la'asos. So obviously we're talking about strong, and nevertheless the mechaber said it's a problem. So he says, Rabosai, I don't like Reb Shlomo Zalman. Hagam hu mechaven to a shakla v'tarya. In Hebrew we call it a du-siach, a conversation that Reb Moshe had between him and his grandchild. But Reb Moshe doesn't accept it. He dismisses it. It's true for Reb Moshe. Reb Moshe's own handwriting. I saved it. I saved these teshuvos. It's beautiful. I don't know if it's in the regular She'eilos Uteshuvos, Hilchos Sukkah. Okay. B'kitzur, we're going to get back to this little piece of teshuvah. It's a beautiful teshuvah. It's all about the canvas sukkahs. Okay. So we're going to learn that the yeri'os, the canvas sukkah of today, is the same thing. The canvas sukkah is the same thing as the yeri'os of the Shulchan Aruch, and the Shulchan Aruch seems to say it's a problem, and therefore Rabbi Sternbach comes and says, Azoi shteit? Azoi shteit? Shteit in Shulchan Aruch. Tonight, of course, my job is to prove you the other way around. My job is to come and show you that that's not so, that that's not so. Otherwise, right, I don't have a sukkah. What am I going to do? But the truth is, if you paid close attention to the way I built my sukkah, you'd know that wisely I avoided all the trouble that people bring up about the canvas sukkahs. And that's tonight's shiur. So let me begin by nitpicking, by nitpicking, by nitpicking at the Shulchan Aruch. Okay. Notice that the Shulchan Aruch did not discuss that you shouldn't use the mechitzes of yeri'os that you tied because it moves. Please, I request, I request you to notice. Don't worry about it. I request you, I request you to make notice. Could you make notice of it? Notice, no, but with that, yeah. Yeah, the ilanus is that, right? The ilanus is it shouldn't move, right? And then he says, what do you do with the ilanus? You tie it well. And then he speaks about our sukkahs that you tie well, these yeri'os that you tie well. And he says, perfect, you tied it well. Ah, but maybe it'll get untied. So the discussion is not about moving, correct?

I pay you if you see something different. I would gladly, gladly bring to your attention. It doesn't say anything different. Right? The mechaber, the Mechaber rabbeisa, yeah, Reb Leizer, am I saying good or am I fafiring you? Am I lying to you? Yeah, no, it just says menatki. It says a different problem. It says an entirely different problem. And once, menatki means maybe it's going to get detached, and he doesn't realize that it's not tied, and the mechitzah will not be able to stand because it's going to just blow away. We're discussing yes, canvis sukkah or not canvis sukkah. And if yes, canvis, or if not canvis sukkah, maybe Westgate, yeah. Westgate, yeah. Yeah. Correct. And, and, and the gate. We're going to discuss the gate. Someone told you my name, the gate. What gate? I remember now, Rebbe. What do you mean by a gate? I said to you, I was the porch. You're stealing my whole shit. Okay, so slowly, let's discuss it. And if you come to my house, which you will, mistama over Yontif, everybody's invited. You know, I got to show you my happy side. I showed you my sad side the last few days. I got to hear my happy side. We worked on it today. Reb Yitzchok, me and Reb Yitzchok, Reb Yitzchok and I, we worked hard today, rabboisai, we worked hard. We worked hard to make—oh yeah, we did it to take care of all the issues that could be in the canvis sukkah. We'll take a picture, we'll put it in the picture books. I have a camera. Of course, you didn't expect me to have something different, right? You know that I'm the one that—my—you can see my sukkah. Everybody walks to Westgate, my porch is the one that's out in the open. Now, you didn't expect me to not have a canvas sukkah, right? To show everybody you have wood and I have canvas. Okay, let's discuss. Let's discuss it. Don't worry, mine tracks the most attention. And how do I know? Because whoever calls me, whoever calls me, people call me, Ah, I see you have the canvas sukkah. Tell me why and how and how come and, right? We got many calls about this, the how come. Okay. Now let's discuss how come. All right, so the first thing I show you is that Mechaneh Mechaber never spoke, never spoke, what, Rabbeisai? He never spoke that the problem is that it's moving. All he spoke was that it might be minatek, which means it will become dislodged. I guess the kesher will be minatek, and therefore lav da'atei, and he's not going to realize it. So technically, if someone ties it in a way that it's not going to be minutak, shouldn't have the problem, the mechaber l'choira, right? And I'll prove it to you. The canvas sukkahs are made in a way that the loops, they go through the poles. It ain't going anywhere. It could fly and fly, but it ain't flying away, that's for sure, okay? Especially if you have the loops on top and the bottom. Some are only on the top, and some have on the bottom also. You know what I'm talking about? The loops. It can move a little, but it's not going to—right, it ain't going, it ain't disappearing, okay? So that's the first nekudah. The first nekudah is—slowly, b'forash. Let me tell you what the beauty of this year is going to be. If you pay, if you, what do you call that, if you go patiently, patiently, you'll enjoy this very much. I'm showing you how to write a teshuva from scratch. This is how you would write a teshuva. Teshuva l'halacha. Someone came and asked, ... sukkah. First thing is ayin Shulchan Aruch, that vav, vav, vav, it's terrible ... Then you start nitpicking and saying, Wait a minute, that's not what the Shulchan Aruch spoke about. Shulchan Aruch spoke about that what? V'lav da'ati, v'hav li mechitza she'eina cholami bifnei ruach metzuyah. I don't know. It will fly away completely? I don't know. Is that so? According to this, if I tack a tie with something that will not move, it can't get untied, for example a ziplock, then this story doesn't exist at all. Period. End of story. And so I've done. I've sent my son to the store. I have to also thank Heinemann. Joey. Joey gave me ziplocks. Joey ... gave us zip ties. End of story. It ain't going anywhere. It's not going to unlock, and there's nothing what to talk about. Shh. So it comes out.

It comes out that you took care of this problem. Is there any way of chashash? Okay, that's issue number one, that l'choira you alleviate the issue of the chashash according to the letter of the law. Again, if you do something that cannot get untied, it's not a din in a ma'aseh; it's din in practice, practically speaking. The chances are is that unless a tsunami comes, it's not going to get untied, and then you don't have the shulchan aruch. There's no problem. There's no such problem, okay? The second issue that you have to say is, mechitzos, you see, tov sheyarok b'mechitzos, kanim b'pachos mi-gimel. Why? Because you have the walls, says the Mishnah Berurah, with the kanim. We have a porch. Porch has kanim, and they're less than gimel. What would you say the number of gimel tefachim is? It's about six inches, let's say. Well, and this is a lot less. So therefore, l'choira you have kanim shel... and l'choira that could be a discussion for also heter, another reason to be matir. What? On a porch, you can't use that heter. I'm saying those that want to make on a porch, which are most of the people in Westgate, so the porch becomes this halacha. You see the second part, b'mechitzos kanim mi-gimel. Okay? So we'll discuss it. Where is the problem? The problem is that the Mishnah Berurah does not make the sugya the way I made it out to be, that it's about maybe it will... It will get untied, but Mr. Burit seems that the mashma'us is also something about it moving a lot. If you take a look at Sif Katan Mem Ches, Ad shelo tehei ruach metzuyah menidah osah, l'tzayno lomar, d'im menidah osam, if it does move, afilu ein b'koach haruach l'hapil osam legamrei, even if it's not going to make it fall completely, rak she'al yedei haruach holech hamechitzah u'ba, but because of it, it goes. No, I'm okay. No, my child is going to look inside. I would give you. No, no, you're okay. Yeah. Nothing more than an hour and a half. No, I agree with you. I agree with you, Shloimele. I love you so much. Believe you me, believe you me. Very few guys like you. Okay, so the shailah is like this. The shailah is, im menidah osam, afilu ein b'koach haruach l'hapil osam legamrei, rak she'al yedei haruach holech hamechitzah u'ba, kayma lan d'shuv lo chashiva mechitzah. So he learns that the problem of the ilanus is that if it moves, not completely, even if it just moves, doesn't have to move away, just holech u'va, flaps, it's already not called a mechitzah. So l'choirah, this could be the problem of the story of this mechitzah, right, of the yeri'os. We're discussing, canvas. If you're allowed to use a canvas. I know it's a very— truth is, I know, had I announced it, the stam oilam would have showed up for this. I know, I know. I know, so I really should have announced it, because I actually called you. I feel bad, because the truth is I really want everyone to hear this. Even me, right before I came here, someone called me about the beautiful topic, the canvas. Not in a place. A hundred percent you're allowed to. But while you're using it? No, no. Okay, but whatever it is, tell them to call me, because it has to be done a certain way. If it's done the regular way, you're not... You're not gaining what... The way you said it, if I didn't love you, I would yell at you. Don't say most, because it's not true, first of all. And second of all, tying doesn't mean the way you think tying. I don't mean tying it on the bottom. I mean— no, I don't mean gezunti either. I mean what I'm going to say, not what you think I'm going to say. This is a big sugya. I'm going to learn it tonight, and we're going to know... It could be not poshut. Okay, so listen carefully, okay? So, b'kitzur, we learned the yerios, and we discussed that maybe the yerios that the Shulchan Aruch is talking about is because it's going to get untied. But the Mishnah Berurah...

But the Mishnah Berurah seems to learn, Mishnah Berurah is learning. The Mishnah Berurah learns. For that I stop. For sefer Torah I stop. Two sifei Torah just walked in. It's wet, it's wet. Yeah. Where is my... Where is... He put it back. Maybe he put it back. That's good to check. Huh? Okay. Now, so the Mishnah Berurah seems to learn that the sugya is also about nidnud, that when it moves, even if it's not legamrei. That's a very important Mishnah. Now, when you look at סעיף קטן נ"א, you'll notice that the Mishnah Berurah says, what's the point of having the kohanim? The oz, אף שהרוח מנענע היריעות, מכל מקום נשארו מחיצות בקנים. So you see clearly that what is he afraid of? He's very afraid that it's moving, שהרוח מנענע היריעות, huh? And that's why you need the kanim. So you see clearly the Mishnah Berurah is not afraid that it's going to fly away completely, but even if it's menanea. Mishnah Berurah holds even... by the trees for sure. That's how the Mishnah Berurah learns it. Right, but it could be. But that's with the mechaber's one, where you didn't tie it. Maybe when you tie it, then it moves a little bit. Who says that's what included? The problem is the Mishnah Berurah seems to say, miniyos. What does it mean? Maybe it means even a little bit. It's not so clear. We're going to soon learn. There's a connection. Correct, there's got to be a connection. You can't tell me that the first thing is one reason and the second thing is another. No, the answer might be very simple. Al kein, therefore, there's a chashash you might not realize, and then it's going to go like the tree who goes from one end to another. But it doesn't mean that if it doesn't move at all, that it's possible. It doesn't say that. Okay. This will all become nisbarer. This will all become nisbarer, rabosai, trust me. This teshuva is something that should be printed. It's something that's fitting, whatever I wrote. So listen carefully. So this Shulchan Aruch— no, no, no. This Shulchan Aruch, rabosai, is a— There's also a sefer Torah. He put back the sefer Torah? No, the sefer Torah's in there. It's two sefer Torahs. One was always— You don't have to stand anyway. You don't have to stand. Leave it. Everything's fine. Everything's fine the way it is. You're not mechuyiv to stand. Yeah, when it's open, it's out. It's a minhag to stand when it's open. Okay, listen carefully. Okay. So before the eitz, before the eitz, let's first see the problem. So from the Mishnah Berurah, we don't have clear— What the problem is, okay. Because it's mashma, even if it moves a little bit, it could be a story. We don't have clear clarity, direction of what it means, menanea. But whatever it is, the sugya is about menanea. So even if I tied it well, it's very shayach that it's still a problem. I wanted to come and tell you, A, that what? That it moves, so ziplock, use those ziplocks that you can't—it's not going anywhere, it's never going to become untied, but still it's moving around terribly. Maybe it's still a problem. We're holding this slowly. That's the shayla. But like I said, the first issue is moving. Again, let's just chazer like this, you'll have clarity. Is the problem that it might get untied? Is that the problem? That's the lashon of the Mechaber. So according to that, if I would tie it in a way that there's no question of it being untied, I alleviate the issue and I resolve the safek, and maybe, maybe—Rav Sternbach says, the Mechaber said it, from who said? Mechateis? I'll tell you Mechateis. So if there's no problem, there's no problem. If it's a shash, if you don't have the shash, you don't have it.

Now, you're talking about the gate around it. That's the mechitzah's koneh mipachos migimmel. That's a shaila we're going to discuss at the end of this shiur. Could those gates of the porch help me? The third issue becomes, let's say the Mishnah Berurah's halacha l'maaseh, so to speak, moving is an issue. How much? And we don't have a direction. It doesn't say. It just says if it moves. How much does it move? So we'll discuss that. We have to see if that's a true statement. Now, before we go further, I'd like to mix everybody up a bit. Put the mezach, and I showed it to many people, and everybody said, Oh, you're right. First of all, the Mechaber never said that it's aser. Al kein ein nachon la'asos kol mechitzos me'iruvin. That's the start. Ah, you'll say that's Rabbi Wolkin's diyukim. Yeah, medayek, medayek, that mechateich the Mechaber's tof reish lamed, see if you... So you're going to say, Yeah, yeah, it's the way—yeah, you're medayek, and that's who says you have to learn Mishnah Berurah like that, so everybody bothers me, yeah? So it's not my diyuk; Darchei Shulchan makes it. Darchei Shulchan, that's not what the Sha'ar HaTziyun says. He says... You have to let me say, say it's not going to come out good. That's my raya. My raya is the Sha'ar HaTziyun. But before that, can we go slowly? The first thing is that the word to'eh. You're okay, right? You're too smart, and because of that you're gevaldik. So next time you'll say this shiur and I'll listen. I'm okay with that. So the first thing is the taiv. Archa Shulchan, seif lamed beis. Taiv means taiv, and therefore if someone wants to sit in such a sukkah, consider it perfect, perfect thing. It's no problem. There's nothing wrong, okay. Even if you look further, v'ra'oytze la'asim sadinim, taiv, again, taiv sheyarei. It's all about taiv. There's nothing aser over here. Archa Shulchan is right here, seif lamed beis. Now, he said good, but you stole the thunder. It's פירוש המשנה ברורה, l'choira, the Shaar HaTziyun. Shaar HaTziyun discusses how many walls could you use this trick of making kanim. So the Mishnah Berurah brings down, דסתאז, דמחיצה אחת משלוש מחיצות שצריך לעשות בסוכה, סעיף קטן נון, יכול לעשות מיריעות. אבל מכמה אחרונים משמע דאף מחיצה אחת אין לעשות בסדינים, אם לא שיהיה בה מחיצה של קנים פחות מג' טפחים. So that what? That even one, even mechitzah achas, you shouldn't use a yeriah, even on one side. אבל מחיצה רביעית, דלכולי עלמא יכול לעשות מיריעות, כיון דמדינא סגי בג'. So therefore the fourth one could be that. Says the Mishnah Berurah—I'm sorry, the next one—רצונו לומר דאף שארוח מן הנאה יריעות, מכל מקום ניכר מחיצה בקנים. Says the Shaar HaTziyun, סעיף קטן מ״ט: ולא יתקע מה שכתב המגן אברהם, דלפי מה שכתוב בסעיף א', מותר רק ג' טפחים, לא מהני קנים בלא יריעות. גם בעניינינו יש להחמיר, כי דס על יריעה להקל בזה, מטעם, כיוון שהיריעות קשורים בטוב. Hakonim einam rakna. Write this down. Hakonim einam rak l'chumra yeseira, ein l'hachmir kol kach. V'chein b'kriyas Yaakov heikel b'zeh. So, rabosai, it says clearly that if you tie it down, it's kosher. So why are you bothering? Why all the— in English there's an expression— why the violence? Why the violence? If it's a פירוש of שערי ציון, it should be good, yeah? I'll tell you what the problem is. Maybe the Mishnah Berurah says you tie it down and it doesn't move at all. Maybe that's what he's talking about. You don't know what he's talking about. That's the problem. You see, I'm the one that always plays both— the devil's advocate, what's it called? Okay, so first I throw at you the Mishnah Berurah that says it's only a chumra yeseira. Then I say— so then when the guy gets excited, Oh, you're right, it's not— wait a minute. Maybe the Mishnah Berurah is talking about that it's tied and it doesn't move. But if it would move, taka, then— the whole Mishnah Berurah is on the chashash part, that it might get untied. That's what the Mishnah Berurah is. So you were right. You said good. You should know your big Baal Kishru, know that. You know your big Baal Kishru.

What? No, he said, but you see how the other side of the coin, because maybe what? Maybe it's when it's tied well. That's what he's talking about. And the shailah is, but it's not moving at all. It's not moving. Lu yitzur, it moves, even the Sha'ar HaTzi would say, okay. Chazon Ish brings this Mishnah Berurah in siman ayin zayin, se'if katan yud, and he says, Chabeisai, I don't understand this Mishnah Berurah. Not a lot of move. It's not true. Where does it say not a lot of move? Of course it's a lot of move. Three tefach. So when you say one tefach, it's actually three tefach. And he gives three cases. He says like this: A, if it moves from the schach three tefachim, the wall, or it moves from the ground up three tefachim, or it moves in the middle, three and three, three and three. So which is really, it can move three this way and it can move three that way. So it's moving six in the middle. That's in the middle. That's about five inches, six inches, whatever, but it's that. And he says a lomdus, the Chazon Ish. You say three this way and three. What's his lomdus? He has a lomdus. What's his lomdus? His lomdus is like this: nidnud, the etzem is not a problem at a wall. It's already the Chazon Ish. You have it? Does he bring it? Does he bring this Chazon Ish? I don't know. I have it on the—where it is in siman ayin zayin. He brings it, he brings it, se'if katan yud. It's a very famous Chazon Ish. It's like one of the classics. Says the Chazon Ish that the problem of the moving sukkah, you have it, there's only three tefachim from the schach, three tefachim from the ground, and in the middle, three and three. Comes along Reb Shlomo Zalman Orbach, classic style, says, Iytachen the Chazon Ish could write a thing like this. In halicha Shlomo, I brought it for you because I know otherwise they'll attack me that I argued on the Chazon Ish. What I do is I just bring the information and I'll let you do the work. Let you fight the good fight. Says the halicha Shlomo, Reb Shlomo Zalman, ... Chazon Ish, you're wrong. Mishnah Berurah: move, even if it moves a drop, it's already no good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even a mashu, not allowed to move at all. Yeah? Not allowed to move at all. Unbelievable. He doesn't mean that; he meant moving, moving. Okay, here it is. ... Bad. ... אפילו מעט, אפילו מעט, אפילו מעט, פסול. It's pasul, half a tefach. Unbelievable. He says, az eishteit in Rishonim, it's moving. It's so good. You know what he's referring to? Because the Mishnah Berurah doesn't give a shiur. He just says it's not allowed to move. So Reb Shlomo Zalman, the Chazon Ish is wrong, right? So this is the moving sukkah. According to the Chazon Ish, it's allowed to move three and three, and Reb Shlomo Zalman says the sukkah is not allowed to move at all. I don't know, but that's what he says. He says that the problem is that it's moving around, yeah? So the moving sukkah, according to Chazon Ish, is no good. According to the Mishnah Berurah, it is good. Shifting in the wind is no good. No shifting in the wind, according to Reb Shlomo Zalman, at all. You don't have a Chazon Ish. How could you say there's no siman ...? That's not the Chazon Ish. Pieces, they took out pieces. Okay? Now, rabosai, let me show you something.

Really very interesting. A sliding door. Are you allowed to use a sliding door for a sukkah? Are you? It's moving. Now, the Westgate, don't talk about Westgate, because it's only the fourth wall, so it's really not a... If you have three walls, it's not the fourth wall anyway. You don't need it anyway. But if, let's say, ... it's not allowed to move. See, the sliding door is moving. Every two seconds it's moving. It's not moving in the wind. So there's a gevaldige gevald, but moving sliding door. Some people have the whole side, one whole side is a glass, and it moves, or it opens this way, or whatever. Are you allowed to use doors? Reb Shlomo Zalman has a meiledik teshuva. He talks about an electric door that moves with the electricity. What do you call that? The electric — you step on it and it moves. Okay, but it's the same thing, the sliding door. And he has a vart that since it's not the ruach that does it, which means mitzad atzmo, but you're doing it, so that doesn't count. And what's his raya? Look at tof reish lamed, se'if yud-beis, about adam. You're allowed to use a man for the walls of a sukkah. Maybe that's a good idea. Tell your friend. Do laughs. In my shtub, in my house, my kids have a big joke. My kids have a big joke. What's the big joke? There was once in Brooklyn a store that went out of business. So they wanted to announce that they went out of business. Instead of getting a sign, which costs money, they hired a poor Mexican. And that's what my son told me. And they have a guy jumping like a bear. That when they had the stop sign where they couldn't go on Route 9. Yes, they have guys standing there. Not only that, they have a guy ... dancing like a monkey. So what you have—yeah, the same story. So what they need to do is to hire upon Mexicans, ... make a sukkah from it. So, ... lamed tzif yud-beis, a person's allowed to be part of the walls; he can be the wall for the sukkah. ... you think he's going to be there for seven days? He's going to move. Here it is. Here it is. It's a ruach metzuyah. ... he's not going to move. I've a lot to go. Come. So what do you see? No, no. Adam doesn't need to be tired. Adam doesn't need to be tired. Okay, good. So what does it say? That if it's an adam, it's okay. Why? Because even if he moves, says Rav Shlomo Zalman, but he chose to move. Okay. Now, what about the fact that these gates here, these—these, what should we call it—these sukkahs that are made from canvas on the porch, technically, it can't move too far. Where is it going to move to? It can't move out. It can move in. So let's just say, for argument's sake, it's in such a way. But let's say in case not Westgate, you would do it in a backyard covered with houses, and there's no wind. So that's a very nice shaylah. L'maaseh, it's not moving. But it could move if there would be a wind. It's a machlokes. Very good. So it's a machlokes, the Mishnah Berurah and the Chazon Ish. The Mishnah Berurah in seif katan mem-ches says that it's no good, that even though l'maaseh it's not moving because of the houses, but since in itself our walls that could move if there would be wind, it's no good. The Chazon Ish, in siman nun-beis, seif katan yud-daled, paskens that since l'maaseh it's not moving, I don't care that it could move. The fact is, it isn't moving. So if l'yutzur, you would think of a way to get the wall away from the wind, which means that you somehow block the wind, then therefore it's good enough. Okay. Now let's talk l'maaseh. So I just gave you that according to Reb Shlomo Zalman, there could be a problem that it moves a little bit. According to Chazon Ish, the problem is when it moves three tefachim. So I remember in Staten Island, like I told you, and I saved it all the way from those days, that Reb Moshe's teshuva is a very interesting teshuva, and Reb Moshe says two things. I used to walk around saying it till I saw it from Reb Moshe, the opposite. I used to say, obviously, if they made such sukkahs, they must have gotten a heter psak from somebody. Says Reb Moshe, Ein hechrach mima shenohag kan b'America, shezeh l'chatchila.

Mistama lo hoyah al pi hora'ah. It must have not. They came up with an idea to make this. First, teshuvah from R' Moshe, meaning, I don't think it's in the sefer. It's a liquid of teshuvos on Hilchos Sukkah. That's what he wants to say. R' Moshe does not like these canvas sukkahs, and I'll tell you how he ends off. U'be'emes nir'eh shesukkos ka'eilu, heim keneged hamechaber, ulechatchilah ein la'asos. R' Moshe didn't hold of it. Very interesting. Now, so what's the pshat? Okay, so listen carefully. Before the porch, R' Moshe brings a very nice svara over here. R' Moshe says, since on top it's tied and on the bottom it's tied, so it's true that it moves in the middle. The moving in the middle, rabosai, the moving in the middle, rabosai, the moving in the middle is not a problem. Listen to what R' Moshe says: V'ulai k'tainas nechti, mi'tam shetzarich ein toduru, is a problem. V'shir amiti lo yadu, I don't know the shiur. U'mistaber shemisnaden rak k'tzas, if it only moves a little bit, she'eino klum. U'me'etzem hadin, efshar she'im kashur l'ma'alah u'l'matah, sherak b'emtza misnadned, she'ein chisaron, aval tzarich iyun. So R' Moshe is not 100% sure, but possibly if you tie it on top and you tie it on the bottom, okay. So first of all, Westgate has a gate. Let's discuss that. I have to move, let's go. Westgate has a gate, you hear? We just learned in the Shulchan Aruch that if it has kanim of gimel, it's good. Two problems. Two problems. How high is it? Everybody who brings this halacha, rabosai, brings it, kanim gimel and gevoyah yud tefachim. It does not say it in the Mechaber. I challenge anybody. Do not say that. That's not what it says in the Mechaber. The Mechaber says yud—I'm sorry, gimel. Gimel. Gimel tefachim. Why would you say maybe not? So the Mishnah Berurah—the Gemara is not talking about our case. The Gemara is talking about a case where you don't have a wall. Here you have a wall. Here you're talking about you have yerios, and the advice for the yerios is to have gimel. Ah, the Mishnah Berurah comes and says that the issue is because you want to make a wall, right? That's what the Mishnah Berurah says. Anybody ever hear of gud asik? Ever heard of that? So some guy was screaming at me, which I wrote anyway, but I don't need him to scream at me. Gud asik means that the walls go up. So even if it's a little— Okay, so let's discuss that a little bit. Let's discuss. We're discussing the canvas sukkahs. Yeah, we're discussing the canvas sukkahs. We have two minutes. So you have the gimel. You have the gimel. So listen to me carefully. I want your rabosai to be honest and tell me, does the Shulchan Aruch say that it has to be yud? It does not say it. It does not say it. Now, there's a halacha of gud asik. Okay, now I want to discuss with you, Nocha nekudah that I will say. There's a whole shaila if you say two hilcheses, which means lavud and gud asik. It's a whole shaila. So the emes, this is a Ran. The Ran in Yud-Zayin amud aleph says that we don't say dofen akumah and lavud, because if you don't say trei hilchesa. Every yeshiva bachur knows, trei hilchesa lo amrinan. What they don't know is that the Tur paskens not like that, that we do say trei hilchesa, and we have to clarify what the Shulchan Aruch holds. It's not for one minute before Maariv. And on top of that, Reb Akiva Eiger in the teshuva, siman yud-beis, says clearly that that's not pshat in the Ran. The Ran did not mean that we don't say trei hilchesa. So even the mekor that everybody quotes, this cameikar. So the point being is that the Shulchan Aruch never said more than gimel. Are our porches gimel? Yes. They have mechitzes kanim, pachos mi-gimel. Are they high ten? I don't think so. And if they are, then you have what? Then you have gud asik. It is less than three. Between the bars, you have less than three, so you have lavud. They're about ten tefachim. They are. More or less. Close.

And you have good asik. I trei hilchasa. Don't worry about the trei hilchasa, because we don't know if we pasken trei hilchasa. So this, l'choira, is a very good cheshbon to be matir the canvas sukkahs because of the porches. The problem is, because I like to read the Shulchan Aruch, and I show this to many poskim and their maskim, the Shulchan Aruch never said that it could be on the outside. The Shulchan Aruch's lashon is, rabosai, read it. It has to be into the wall of the... It has to be into the wall of the... Yaroi, it has to be tov sheyaroi b'mechitzos, in the mechitzos. Kanim b'pachos mi... It never said. I don't know if the yeri'os on the inside with the wall, the kanim on the outside, will help you. I don't know if this helps you. I don't know if you could put the two together. What's the problem? Because the schach doesn't reach the walls? Exactly. And maybe there's a problem because you don't have the schach. Otherwise, forget the walls. Again, yaroi means to weave it into the yeri'ah. Into the yeri'ah, in and out, into the yeri'ah. This is not the story. The story of the Shulchan Aruch is not—this is not the case of the porch of Westgate. The porch of Westgate is not the reading of this Shulchan Aruch, and I don't know if you could compare the two. Okay, we have to daven Maariv, rabosai, so I don't mind staying till we finish, and then you'll see how I fix all those problems and show you how you could use taka the canvas sukkah in the porches of Westgate. Maariv. I can't, I can't. After Maariv, I stay till tomorrow. No, he lied. I didn't hear him. He said he makes canvas sukkahs. He got one for free. Oh, he got one for free. If it's kosher, it's kosher. Back good, back good. He said, he said his wooden sukkah doesn't fit this porch, so he got somebody's old canvas sukkah. The— no. I just quoted. Someone's building a sukkah tomorrow. You'll see. How long should that— ולך לך בדרך, מושך בך וסומך.

Here.