Hilchos Borer: What Counts as Le’alter—Preparing for a Seudah and the Half-Hour Rule

Transcript

You'll look at it. It's full. I don't know how to use it so much. Okay, you'll take it, I'll put it on. Okay, let's go. Okay, today we're going to learn the mitzvah, be'ezras Hashem yisbarach, about the third tnai of boirer. Third tnai of boirer was the ayil, remember? Ochel, yad, and l'alter. The lamed. Lamed is for l'alter. So, the Mishnah Berurah and the Psikha: afilu im hu boirer ochel min hapsoles, u'veyado. So even if he's taking the ochel, and it's b'yado, which means couldn't get better than that, ach sheda'ato le'echol l'achar zman, but l'maaseh his intention is to eat it after a time, chayav. So therefore it has to be l'alter v'lo l'achar zman. Okay. This halacha actually comes from siman aleph. This is the halacha of siman aleph, meaning se'if aleph, excuse me, se'if aleph of shin yud tes. Ha'boirer metoch psoles, shnei minei ochlin, min min min, says the Mishnah Berurah, says the Shulchan Aruch, it has to be k'dei le'echol l'alter mutar. If he does all this k'dei le'echol l'alter, then it's mutar, which implies that if you do it l'achar zman, it's no good. What's called l'alter? What's called l'achar zman? This is the topic of tonight. Very, very difficult, very big topic. What's called l'alter and what's called l'achar zman? So we begin with the Ramah that gives us a little bit of a clue, gives us a little direction. Haga: l'chol ma sheboirer l'tzorech oseh seudah. Anything that you're boirer for that seudah, shemeisiv bah, miyad, mikri l'alter. Okay, so the Rama feels that he needs to explain the le'alter, and that is, kol ma sheboirer l'tzorech osei seudah. So first it has to do with a seudah, which means the meal that you're going to eat. Shemeisiv bah. Interesting. I mean, what happens if it's not something that I'm going to be meisiv? It's not, I'm snacking. Chozer hu hadin, but it's interesting, the... Shemeisiv bah, even if it's for an hour at the end of the seudah. You see, you don't know that till the word of l'alter and miyad, but right now it's kol ma sheboirer l'tzorech osei seudah. He's saying a chiddush. I mean, if it's l'tzorech osei seudah, you have a little more time. Okay, could be, maybe, maybe, maybe. I was just gonna say, yeah, I mean, we're really saying the same thing. I was saying hu hadin. I'm saying we're saying the same thing. The point, though, is that we have the implication of the word seudah. That's clear, that it has something to do with the next seudah. But the word miyad, what does miyad mean? On the clock. You know, they want us to daven on the clock, right? That's the... has to be four minutes, eight minutes. So what does the word miyad mean, on the clock? So we're gonna show you that here in the Mishnah Berurah, in Shin Yud Tes, there is no indication what the word miyad means. All it says is, l'tzorech osei seudah, shemeisiv bah, miyad, mikri l'alter. What does that mean? When is this seudah that's miyad? Is this seudah in ten minutes? Is this seudah in twenty minutes? Is this seudah in a half an hour? Is it in an hour? Is it in five hours? When is this miyad seudah? Let's see now the Mishnah Berurah. Maybe the Mishnah Berurah gives us a little bit of more of a clue. If you look at seif katan daled and seif katan hei, you'll notice that actually Mishnah Berurah does not, does not give us a clue of what the word meisah bamiyad means. But let's learn it inside. Daled: V'chol ma shebo'er, ritzono lomar afilu yarech zman ha'sudah kama sha'os, even if it's going to be many hours, mikri l'alter. But that doesn't mean when you're starting the seudah; that means how long the seudah is going to be. You understand? Afilu yarech zman ha'sudah, that's the actual seudah. But you still don't have the word miyad, right? I know when someone reads it right away, he thinks, Ah, the seudah could be a long time. That's not what it means. It means yarech zman ha'sudah, that the actual seudah is long, so we don't care. But when is the seudah beginning? That's not in this Mishnah Berurah. Even if it's later on in the seudah. Yeah, even if it's later on in the seudah, which we'll discuss, this Mishnah Berurah, what is exactly the cases, there are a few cases that we can stick back into this Mishnah Berurah. Either way, ah, I would see him. I'm happy to see you. I'm really happy to see you. We're going to learn tonight very nice, so come. Take out the Shulchan Aruch quickly. Come, let's go, let's go.

There's a lot of learning to do today. I appreciate you davening on Shabbos. It was very good. I still, it's still in my head. I liked it. Have a nice, daven nice. Okay, so, b'kitzur, here Rabbeinu Tziyon, we're learning that l'alter, for bo'er is mutar, but it says what? Shemeisa bo miyad, miyad. That it's the seudah that he's going to, right away, going to eat. But there is no clear-cut pshat. So there's no clear-cut pshat what the miyad means. Okay. L'maaseh, the Mishnah Berurah— What? Yeah, different parts of Hilchos Shabbos. Yeah, come, come, let's learn Hilchos Shabbos. You have to spend your whole life learning. You have to spend your whole life learning Hilchos Shabbos. Your whole life, dafka learning Hilchos Shabbos. Ach, a maish, l'smachte. Yeah, so today we're going to learn beautiful, so let's move, because I have a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of chiddushim, Nishmas Eigenef, and from the Gedolim, Rosh Yeshivas, mamash, shein zachin on Hilchos l'alter. What's called l'alter? Okay? So all the Shulchan Aruch says there has to be lois seudah miyad, the one that's going to be miyad. It doesn't explain what miyad is, right? You see the word? No, no indication. Mishnah Berurah writes, Ratzon lomar, afilu yaarich zman haseudah kama shaos. Even if the seudah is going to be long. So it doesn't say that you're going to start the seudah in a long time. It means that the actual seudah could be for two, three hours, for example, a bar mitzvah. It goes on and on, and especially with twenty speeches. It's pesach I'm going to talk about, because when this Karel says a very simple pshat about a pesach seudah, we'll talk about it. He holds that that doesn't count. Yeah, the hagadah, this and that, so therefore you can't... Although you need the hagadah. We'll talk, we'll talk, we'll talk. I'm going to be falpel back and forth. ... Till later, later. Shout to kiddush. ... You know, the lomdus. They're two ... I have ... sitting, they steal my shiur. Kids, what do we have over here? We have over here, maybe, that the Mishnah Berurah just says that the seudah is long. Okay. Now, how close? It doesn't say, it just says סמוך לסעודה. Okay. Now, it has to be l'tzorech, says the Mishnah Berurah, and we'll get back to this Mishnah Berurah as well. ומכוונותו כדי שישתהה גם אחר סעודה, או על סעודה אחרת, that's not good, because you can't have it for after the seudah or seudah acheres, chayav chatos. Achim imeila nishtayer mibirurase ad lachah seudah, but in case it does stay, which means your intention was just for that seudah, and grada there was left over, then there's no problem. Ein bkach klum, כיוון שכבר בירר בהיתר, because already he was mevarer b'heter. Now it's not clear in this Mishnah Berurah, did you use for that seudah, or the pshat is you were mevarer for the seudah and you didn't use it? What's the case? The case is I was mevarer and I ate some of it, and some of it was left over, or the case of the Mishnah Berurah is I did it for that seudah. Hey. Or vav, actually, we're doing vav now, right? Hey, hey. What does the Sha'ar HaTziyun say? ובירר לו אותה סעודה, ואחר כך נמלך לאוצר, that's לנמלך לאוצר. That's something else. I'm going to speak about that, the nimlach la'az, he changed his mind. So that could be a different case. One case could be that he went and he was boirer for the seudah, and it's not pshat he changed his mind; he just couldn't eat. For guests and guests. We'll talk about guests. We'll talk about that also. We'll talk about all these cases. That's another case we'll talk about. I'm going to talk about every one of these cases, pages and pages and pages. We'll probably hopefully get through most of this tonight, and we'll have a second chelek of it tomorrow. L'maaseh, we'll talk about your case, we'll talk about your case. I just want to point that right now, before we even go weiter, there could be three different cases. There could be a case where I did it for this seudah, and then what happened was I just couldn't eat. I just became full, okay? Which means I never got to that. I had five courses and I just never got to it. Then there could be a case where I said, you know what, I don't want to eat it in this seudah. What do I need it for? I don't know. See, the change of mind could be different. I'm saying it could be the change of mind, not pshat I didn't eat it. I just changed my mind. And there could be a third case where I started it and grada some of it that I was boirer was left over, so some of it was boirer l'tzorech.

And from that, some of it was left over for the next. Those are three ways we can learn this stickle of Mishnah Berurah and Shar HaTziyun, huh? No, I don't know if I want to do that, because I'll tell you—let's first—so let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. First, let's get the yesod of the sugya, and then we can say all the Torah you want. Again, all I'm saying, in the reading of the Mishnah Berurah, grada there's three cases that could have, where case number one is he was boirer. Yeah, what do you want to say? So what's the she'eilah? If he was boirer, he was planning on using it for the seudah, and it ended up he didn't need it. So that's an issue. So that's all he means. He means, what's the chiddush you're saying? Yeah, because some of it was boirer for afterwards. Maybe it's not a problem. Whatever was left over, huh? The chelek that should not be allowed. You're saying there's no—you're saying a good ha'arah, that it's—yeah, and let's say it's not like what your case is. It's also she'eilah of issur. No, I'm saying even the case of the Shaar HaTziyun, where he— You want to know what's the nigeia l'maaseh. Yeah, so maybe there's an issur involved. Halachically, we are over an issur; you have to do teshuvah, maybe. You're saying according to the Pri Megadim anyway it's not nogea because I'm not eating it. You say it's shayach anyway. I don't know, what does it mean, l'orech u'me'ever hachi? It means it's not the right thing to do. I mean, you shouldn't change your mind; you should use it. Kamuk l'orech u'me'ever, it's not the right thing to do. But that means it became asur? Let's say I did it, I changed my mind. Yeah, it's a good ha'arah. It's a very good ha'arah. Maybe it means that l'chatchilah you should be more careful not to come to such a situation. Maybe that's what l'orech u'me'ever hachi means, that you should be— He wants to know what does it mean with the Pri Megadim. It's a very nice ha'arah. You should write it. That's a very nice ha'arah. I know I wasn't omed on. Pashut that's what he means. Maybe you should be more careful to make sure you have just what you need, not say, Oh, you know what, whatever's left over will be for that. Ganz gut, huh? Frekt gut. L'chora, loyteh Pri Megadim, what's this Shaar HaTziyun? You're saying good. Very good. I'm going to write it down. It's very good. Let's wait a little bit. You know why? Because once... let's wait. Let's wait a little. Okay. Now, now, let's discuss the yesod of this halacha of laalter, because once we get the yesod, we can start answering all the different cases that the poskim talk about: is it or isn't laalter? And we'll begin with the—after getting the yesod, we'll begin with the main shaila: is there a shiur? Is there a zman? Is there any paitch miyad? How do we translate miyad? So the first thing is, not to go into big arichusin, but azoi shteit in all the mefarshim and all the poskim, the yesod of laalter means that it becomes derech achilah. The reason why laalter is mutar is because it's derech achilah, and anything which is not laalter is derech ha'itzer. Now, sometimes you can learn like a Mishnah. Does it have to fit into derech achilah, and anything which isn't derech achilah is aser, or the other way around? It has to be the derech ha'itzer to be aser, and anything which is not derech ha'itzer is mutar. There are big nafka minas in it, you know. Like everybody who— you know, when you learn a Mishnah, you know that there's, right, is it this part or it's the reisha keneged the seifa? So the shaila is this shaila. Yeah? Yeah, Reb Tzvi? The shaila is, is it the pshat that it has to be derech achilah? Excuse me a second, I was a little dizzy. No, maybe I'm just very tired. Give me a second. Is the pshat anything which is not derech achilah is aser? What the pshat is that it has to be the opposite, that anything which is not derech choitzer becomes asur. Okay, so what is the shiur, rabosai? What is the shiur? So if you take a look here, like I said, there's no shiur. The Mishnah Berurah speaks by toichen a shiur. In siman shin chaf aleph, se'if yud beis. Toichen la'alter. Okay, let's all look it up, shin chaf aleph, se'if yud beis. Okay? Says like this: Vechol ze lo meiri ela b'chotech u'meniach, aval im it's le'echol miyad, hakol shari. And there it says, mida d'have aboir le'echol miyad, d'shari.

So we have over here, toichin l'alter is mutar, just like boirer l'alter is mutar. Ah, here the Mishnah Berurah gives us the Magen Avraham that explains what's called l'alter. Sif katan mem-hei. V'yesh mefakfekin al heter zeh, v'gam b'Beis Yosef kasav she'af im shemachaven le'echol miyad, gam ken yizaher lachtoch chatichos gedolos. Tam zeh kasvu kamah acharonim, d'nachon l'hisnaheg k'mo shekasav ha'Beis Yosef. U'mikom makom, hanohagim lachtoch b'solin v'atzmon, dak dak, ein limchos b'yadam, d'yesh lahem al mi sheyismochu. V'al kol panim, asur la'asos ad... no? Yetzias beis haknesses, d'be'inyan סמוך לסעודה ממש. So over here we find finally what it means, סמוך לסעודה. Nevaldik, huh? Pele why it's not brought down in boirer. I don't know why the Mishnah Berurah didn't feel it necessary in boirer to explain this to me. The point being, you're allowed to cut up the things little little. First. What? It should have been there. Avada. It's a peledike zach, no? It's a peledike shtikel Mishnah. Again, Mishnah Berurah, let me—I'm sorry, I came back. My mind is, I was a little bit dizzy before. Okay, Baruch Hashem, okay now. Push, I'm fine. Okay. It's five o'clock in the morning, it's killing me. Okay. So we have over here, our din of toichin l'alter. What's toichin l'alter? Mutar. Yesh mefakfekim, yeah, no, you should, you shouldn't, okay. But it's mida d'boirer. So what is that shiur? Mr. Bur sticks it in by toichen, that what? If it's סמוך לסעודה, which is משעה שיצאו מבית הכנסת, so then it becomes what? סמוך לסעודה. Now it's very interesting, everybody's yetziah mibeis haknesses is different. By the time I, from when I leave the shul here till I get to my house, it's quite a time. It's quite some time. No, when the people leave. The minute, let's say the davening's over at eleven, that's what he means, the oilem is leaving at eleven. I could walk for half an hour to the shul also. Okay, so that's part of the shaylah. What is— so let's see, let's see. ... No, that's what's no good. ... because that's what's for sure aser. But that could be somewhere in the middle. In other words, you don't know where. What's the shiur? Bottom line, there's no shiur, but at least we have a direction of the shiur. The Chazon Ish said a half an hour. Okay, let's go slowly, because it's a beautiful sugya. All right, dak. I know you're tired. Believe me, I'm also tired, and believe me, I'm pushing. We all have to push. That's all what life's about. So again, if someone asks you, What's the shiur of lalter? and the answer is, I don't know. It doesn't say in the Mishnah Berurah anywhere in Hilchos Borer. What he does is, he says it in Hilchos Tochen, and in Hilchos Tochen it says it like breirah, like borer. So if in Hilchos Tochen, like borer, it says yetziah mibeis haknesses, so now we have that it's yetziah mibeis haknesses. Shaylah is, what's that? We don't know what yetzei meizakneses. Rav Nissim Karelitz, in his sefer, says a yesod: there is no shiur. And you know what I really think he means? That's why—again, you know, I like to see the עומק of everything, but maybe he meant it, maybe he didn't mean it. He's trying to say because it doesn't say a shiur, that's why, because there is no shiur. I think—again, he doesn't say it. I'm telling you, that's not what it says there. But could be that's the עומק of what he means. The fact that it doesn't say a shiur, the pshat is because there is no shiur. So then what's the shiur? Kol sheyesh hargasha sheyisamech l'seudah. And we don't mean hargasha in Hilchos Niddah. And I didn't like the words over there, because when I read it the first time, kol sheyesh hargasha—he meant kol shemargish, maybe. I don't know, it was not written so well. But al kol panim, kol sheyesh hargasha, which means if you feel that's called סמוך לסעודה, that's called סמוך לסעודה. Which means—means—but למעשה, it's not good. The fucking shiur. If it takes you an hour to get ready—you know who says that? The Rosh Yeshiva, zatzal. The Rosh Yeshiva, ... says it depends on the person, depends on the seudah, depends on the matzav. If it takes you ten minutes, then it's ten minutes. If it takes you two hours—if the wife is a balabusta—that's the whole...

That's what I started with from Nesin Karelitz's vort. It's not a shiur. There is no shiur. Preparing the seudah. Whatever is called preparation, that's what it means. Whatever is סמוך לסעודה goes under the preparation of the seudah. Yishmak, yeah? Yeah, but why not? You can't tell people how to eat. If the whole svara is derech achilah, however you eat. You have twenty guests, you have five guests. We'll see the guests. The guests is the next part of the seudah. We'll see, we'll see. Okay, ... Good ... Yeah, yishmak. Good. He'll say, What do you mean? This is when I prepare. That's why I know that you don't prepare at this time. Why? How are you going to give ...? Don't do it. Okay. ... gave a scream, something which is ... R' Moshe is an ... Moshe, chelek daled, siman ayin daled, Hilchos ... se'if katan yud gimmel. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, excuse me. ... chelek daled, siman ayin daled, Hilchos ... Anyway, it could be chayiv, because in the Gemara you could always say shogeg ... Shogeg ... same Gemara. That's the Gemara Sanhedrin over there. You could always say it was a shogeg. It's a nimlach. Okay. ... chelek daled, siman ayin daled, Hilchos ... se'if katan yud gimmel, there's no zman, you hear? So again. Rebbetzin, you gotta wait because I'm gonna go through all this. I'm gonna believe you, me, this is going to be a beautiful shiur. Remember this. You're gonna say, Oh, that was a good shiur, okay? Patience, everything with patience. So l'maaseh, let's see Klal again. We have a shtikel pshat in miyad, yotzi'im miBeis haknesses, but we don't have pshat what's yotzi'im miBeis haknesses, okay? L'maaseh says Reb Nissan Karelitz, there is no shiur. I'm explaining what he means, and he's saying good in halacha, if hashteit via poskim. If there is no shiur in the Mishnah Berurah, it's because there is no shiur. That's the reason. The kasha is the teretz. Why is there no shiur? Because there is no shiur. That's the answer. Pshat. So then, hachanami, there's no shiur. So whatever it is, whatever is called preparation... and azei pasken chamisha. Someone wants to prepare for the seudah, go do something else. No, you're ruining, because yet it's a whole big pshat. We'll get to that. We'll get to it, we'll get to it. Yes, no, it's a tumah... without knowing the sugya. It goes away. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Chabosai, we'll talk about all these cases. We're gonna talk about all these cases. You ready? You have it? You have the teshuvah? You have Rav Moshe? You want to read it? Okay, oh, it's there. It's very short. That's exactly where I said it, okay. A bellya dushnitza. Who's a bellya dushnitza? A bellya dushnitza... maybe a... I know he was mashgiach in Lomza. He was mashgiach in Lomza, Petach Tikvah. Bikitzur, Reb Elie Dushin, the tzaddik, the great tzaddik Reb Elie Dushin, wrote a sefer on lomdus. And there he says, it gefregt the Chazon Ish in the yeshiva by us, in the yeshiva. He doesn't say by us; he says in the yeshiva. It takes a long time to prepare. There's a lot of bachurim. So how much time is called samuch l'sudah that you should have the heter to do boirer of ochel mitoch psoles? The Chazon Ish answered him, a half an hour and not more. So the velt walks around saying, ‘Ah, the Chazon Ish held a chatzi shaah,’ and everybody quotes this. So Reb Nissan Karelitz in his sefer says that Reb Elie Dushin brings this from Chazon Ish, but the olam doesn't really understand well what the Chazon Ish meant. What did he mean? He meant, l'chumra v'loi l'kula, which means, let's say it took two hours to prepare, you only have a half an hour. But if it takes ten minutes to prepare, you don't have a half an hour. He didn't mean it l'kula, that if it's a ten-minute preparation, you have a half an hour. It's so poshut. Maybe samuch l'sudah means half an hour, damn it. Everybody learns like the other way. A half an hour, half an hour. So now you know, now you know that Reb Nissan Karelitz says that there's no such Chazon Ish, and it never happened, and it's a shtusim v'hevel.

Okay, wait. So I have, you know me, I collect all Reb Chaim Kanievsky's. Every time something comes, any pamphlet, any little thing that comes out. There was a sefer that came out years ago on Hilchos Shabbos, with all the psakim from Reb Feinberg and this and that. I bought it, and he has a few teshuvos from Reb Chaim on Borer, and one of them is this story of Reb Elia Dushnitzer. It's gevaldik. They asked Reb Chaim. Reb Chaim said you can't be somech on this whole thing of the Chazon Ish. Why? Because ma'aseh shehaya kach haya. Yeah, the story was that that's how much time they needed. The Chazon Ish held that they only, in that yeshiva, they only need a half an hour. So you can't be mechadesh anything from it. Even the chumra, all the kulos. He says the ma... he says, Hagam, you're right, hagam Reb Elia Dushnitzer understood the Chazon Ish that way, and that's how he wrote it in the sefer. But he says the ma'aseh shehaya was that that's all it needed. How does Reb Chaim Kanievsky know this? He learned the lomdus. He was a talmid of Reb Elia Dushnitzer. He learned it. He ate the Shabbos. He was one of the people that they were paying the food for. How big of the yeshiva do you think there was there? What do you think was there? Twenty-something guys. Nobody there. What was there? Twenty guys. No, thirty guys. You told me the next Yisrael, and then forty-eight, fifty. How many bachurim do you think were there? Yeah, that's what he's saying. Reb Chazon Ish said that. They came to ask Reb Chaim, Reb Chaim said, What are you talking about? I was in that yeshiva, so I know what happened. I was there. I know what he's talking about. It didn't take— the Chazon Ish held it in that yeshiva. So, ein hachanami, part of his yeshiva maybe they need more. So meileh, zakt Reb Chaim Kanievsky that you can't be somech, meaning nothing. It's just nothing. It doesn't mean anything. The whole teshuvah means nothing. It doesn't say. Why he was telling them? Reb Eliyah Dushnitzer asked him about his yeshiva, told him, Your yeshiva is half an hour. So for that became psak halacha, half an hour, and this is ... It doesn't mean anything. The Mishnah Berurah says yotzei mibeis haknesses, we don't know what that means. Okay. What are you talking? You have a simchah, it's more than half an hour. We'll see. We'll talk about all these cases. Now, the Ben Ish Chai. There's a Ben Ish Chai that the olam has to know, very famous Ben Ish Chai, that he says, karov l'sha, a little less than an hour. A little less than an hour is called — it's in Parashas Beshalach, se'if katan aleph, in the Ben Ish Chai — that that's called סמוך, okay? So I used to, in my yeshiva, I always joke around a little bit, you know, the Ashkenazim, they don't have the same big meals that the Sefardim have. So maybe the preparation for the Ashkenazi meal is ten minutes, and for the Sefardi meal it's about an hour, you know. Besides the thirty-six. You know they have a chant that it takes two days to make. You know that? They start from — two days before they start. The wife has to wake up in the middle of the night to change the fire ... All right, don't worry, they stop that as soon as they came to America. Okay, anyways, beקיצור, this could be, efsher pshat why, by according to the Ben Ish Chai, it's an hour preparations for the meal, okay. Before we continue, because what's nogea l'maaseh, it's really shtei minim which are good, right? Because you're really preparing good stuff. You're not preparing pesoles l'ochel, right? You're not doing the borer usually of—you're not putting pesoles into the food. Most of the cases is you're doing borer for ochel l'ochel. So there's a big machlokes which the Biur Halacha brings down by shtei minim, is there a problem of laltel l'achas yad? There's a very big shailah. If you look at the Biur Halacha, Divrei Hamaschil u'meniach ha'sheini, he brings from Rav David Armah. עיין בספר מים עמוקים, page kuf mem, עיין בספר מים עמוקים, שהביא בשם הרב דוד ארמה, בפירוש לרמבם שכתב דבשני מיני אוכלים, אף על פי שלא אכל מה שביר, אף על פי he didn't eat מה שביר, אלא מה שהיה בורר בידו, הניחו לבו ביום או למחרת, ואכל המין הנשאר, שרי. דלא אסרינן זה אלא בבורר פסולת גמור מתוך אוכל, מה שאין כן הכא דהוו ב' מיני אוכלים, then there's no sugya of—

Alter, as long as that's l'vay bayoym. So this sugya of l'alter, l'voy bayoym, according to Rav Dover HaRama, is only by psoles and oichel, that it has to be l'alter. But if it's not psoles, if it's oichel, shtei minim, then there's no problem. So there's a very important biur halacha. The biur halacha himself says we don't pasken like this. Says the biur halacha that we have to be choshesh, right? ... גם בספר ... דאס הרמבם, אמנם למעשה לאזן מדברי התלמוד דברי ... that even by shtei minim, even if it's regular minim, when you're borer the oichel, it has to be what? L'alter. So I'm just saying before we continue, know that we're not discussing psoles and oichel. The din of borer, that you need l'alter, it has to be l'seudas seudah, all good food, liver and the eggs. If you want to separate the liver, you're in trouble right away. If it's not l'alter, then you can't do it. Separating two minim, which are good, and it's not l'alter, you're in trouble. I'm just saying, people don't chap that. Yeah. I'm saying they make it separate, they make it separate. I'm saying, but the guy who's preparing it, I'm telling you, let's say he's separating it, whatever. It's not negea the case, but I'm just saying the story of preparation for a meal, that you have to be careful, borer, even the oichel. You see, normally the borer is psoles, so people don't chap that it's an oichel. The oichel, when it's l'alter. So when it's not l'alter, it's asur, even when it's shtei minim which are good. It has nothing to do with psoles and oichel. If shtei minim is borer, then what's the difference? Some say that. No, some say if you put it l'achar zman, it's lo yitzer. But ein hachanami, if it's two minim and it's good, it's good, you know, there's no— okay, now. Now let's go back to the Mishnah Berurah, that as long as it's for that seudah, no matter how long the seudah is. So let me ask you a question. No matter what course in the seudah, or it's for the first course in the seudah. For example, let's say the seudah is going to be four hours because there's going to be five uncles that have to speak. So by the time the dessert, it's going to be in four hours from now, okay? So do you have a heter for the last portion, סמוך לסעודה, or the סמוך לסעודה is for the first portion? Since it has to be סמוך to the eating, good, so I'll do it סמוך to the first course that I'm going to eat. Maybe the second course you don't have to wait because it's also, but by the time the dessert is in four hours from now, maybe not, okay? So the truth is, I would have said there's no heter. That's not called derech; that's called derech achilah. Since you have to go back to the sefer derech achilah, so I saw Reb Shlomo Zalman brings down in the תיקונים ומילואים, the sefer that they gave out afterwards that he fixes the Shemiras Shabbos, in perek gimmel, ha'arah reish, that it doesn't make a difference, even the dessert, because that's the normal way. The normal way is to prepare the dessert before the meal. So anything which is סמוך לסעודה, you can prepare even the last course. I would have thought not that way. I would have thought you could prepare the fish, you can prepare the eggs, okay, but prepare the ice cream and be boirer the chocolate from the who said, right? I don't know, I have very shvach hasagos in desserts. Mustama I'm speaking... One second, one second. Can we start again? No, no, no, no. I'm just, first I'm repeating. You mean why I would feel that it's aser? Because this is what I feel. What do you mean? I don't have an agenda when I mean whatever I feel. I feel that doesn't sound right. Doesn't sound right that I can prepare something for something four hours that I can do later. Yeah, I'm trying to make a derech hachilah. That's called derech hachilah, prepare something four hours in advance. Okay, I don't know. Okay, these are svaras. All I'm saying is originally when I thought of this shaila, this is how it hit me. But then I saw Reb Shlomo says it's not like that. He says that it's mutar to prepare before the seudah this. Now let me show you how far this goes, okay? Derech achilah, not derech achilah. Normal people, women, when they prepare for a seudah, then they take a break. Ah, the seudah's already, now they sit down on the chair. So do they have the time that it's normal to prepare before with the break? Without the break. You're laughing. Gedolei Yisrael asked this question. Reb Shlomo, Reb Eliashiv in Ayil Meshulash says it's without the break. What's the break have to do with anything? That's Reb...

Karel says, since you go after the derech of the peir, that's how they prepare. They take a— you know what? Appreciate, appreciate what the paisik, they go to get dressed. Appreciate the— I'm trying to give you a feel of the way the paisik sees the sugya. It's beautiful, you hear? Once l'maaseh, they prepare and they go right into the meal. Nobody prepares and takes a break, right? They don't prepare and right into the meal. Because in this— nobody— normal people, preparation for a meal is they prepare and then they stop for— The relief is almost done. What? Yeah, whatever. They change into a robe, a kittel also, he takes a break. It's a gevaldige— but you see how they argue in minutes of how to fatsh derech achilah. Yeah, I'll look into it. Yeah, I hear, because of the same cheshbon, you can work it out, right? I hear. Okay, good, good, good, good. Now, kitzur. Now, in seif katan hei, okay, I told you with the kavanah, right, a lot of people are nichshal in it because they think once you're allowed to be boirer, you're allowed to be boirer. It's not so pashut. It has to be that you're boirer, and you look in the Shaar HaTziyun that it mamash can't be for boirer, and then you're going to leave it for afterwards. You only boirer what you have to be boirer. That's what we're learning, l'choirah. That's especially the Nachlas Baltils Dik, he's right. I mean, what does the Mishnah Berurah mean? You got to make sure— not make sure, you got to prepare in advance that it's only this, so whatever you don't need for this, you shouldn't be boirer. The oilam is not makpid. I don't think the oilam knows this so much, the— whatever you don't need for this seudah, you should be— Okay, so that's why I'm leading, you know, I'm feeding you into the sugya, okay? Spooning. You ready? When does the seudah start? When the— yeah, yes, it's all about derech achilah. When does the seudah start? Kiddush rabbai, which means, are you allowed to say, listen, the samuch, so you know what? After Kiddush, I'll go and make the borei, or the seudah starts actually from the Kiddush. Now, Rav Nissim Karelitz, takke says Kiddush. Kiddush is the haschalah of the seudah. Now, I want to be mazbir something, okay? And I hold it's an important nekudah. It's not about a seudah. The din of samuch l'seudah is not that the borei has to be samuch to the seudah in the din of the seudah. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with derech achilah. I'll give you an example. I was thinking of this example. Let's say a person prepares in the seudah for after Birchas Hamazon some— let's say it's a cake or something that you have to make another bracha for. A lot of people want a bench, and then they're going to sit down outside for dessert, right? They bench for the meal, and then they come and take a tea outside, okay? So are you allowed to do borei for that? It's definitely samuch, but it's not in the seudah. It's a different seudah. Same thing with the Kiddush before you have mezonos, you bench, and then you— if it's a seudah, the halacha, samuch l'seudah, so then the pshat is— seudah. Obviously it has nothing to do with the seudah. What does it have to do with? Samuch to your achilah. And that's what I started the shiur with. It's not about seudah. It's about snacking, eating. It has nothing to do with the word seudah. Take out the word seudah. Why am I saying this? I'm happy my Sephardi friends are not here today, because halichos olam, Rav Ovadia says it's not like that, I don't know. He says once you bench— Make a hefsek, so it would be considered not סמוך, and therefore you have to do it right after benching. You can't do it before the benching. But that's where we're getting to the pesach. Give me a few minutes, give me a few minutes. The boirer in the seudah of the pesach could be a little different. We're going to talk about it. Let's say you want to do boirer, which if there is such a case, let's say in the seudah for what's after the seudah, dal kosos, well, for the second two kosos. What would you call that? You like it. That's a nice shaila. I see you're tired. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. That's das reidach, das reidach. Tonight she is nice, so enjoy, enjoy. Do you hear what I'm talking about? Do you hear? Huh? Setting the table tomorrow. Someone said, you better take the silverware and put it tomorrow, to Friday night, tomorrow seudah. No way, no how? A little bit. Because she likes the table to be nice. That's what Shlomo Zalman says. Shlomo Zalman says that since you like the table to be nice, so you're allowed to be boirer in advance for the table: tablecloth, silverware. Some people want the table to be nice for Shabbos. We'll talk about it, im yirtzeh Hashem, tomorrow. That's tomorrow's chelek of the shiur. But I just want to tell you, so could you take it one step further? The caterer wants the food out. It looks nice. The whole table looks nice. So maybe the boirer can be ready for five hours from now. He likes it. He likes it. He likes it.

Part of the advertisement. Part of the advertisement. Okay, we'll talk about it tomorrow. Maybe five hours to that. They want that. You know what they want? That when they come in the morning for the davening, everybody should look, whoa, look at that beautiful table over there. Look at that, look at that. Before davening, they had a Kiddush before davening. Nine o'clock, they have a whole course. They're smart. They know how to get them. Before davening. No, like this, they have a packed oilem. Huh? They had a kollel before davening. It's called... I don't think they're saying wow for water. They found the heter. It's called derech achila. I don't give you... okay. I don't think they're saying wow for water. They found the heter. Mass... I mean, unless they don't do borer. I mean, if they... so they're doing borer, you have a problem, okay. Which leads us to the shaila of leila seudah, leila seudah. So if a person wants to do borer, you hear, before Kiddush— no, before, after, once they get to the seudah in two and a half hours, after every child finishes his dvar Torah, his gematria on the word parah— every child has twenty gematrias on the word parah— so by the time everybody finishes, it's in four hours from now, right? So Rav Nissim Karelitz says that that's not called סמוך לסעודה. So any borer which is done before the hagadah, for the sake of the seudah, would be considered not l'alter and it's asur. Pilei ployim. I'd rather disagree, but all right, but it's only... The toichen is... Toiches learn from boir. But toches, doesn't the grass that you grind it right when you get home? You grind the maror right away. Yeah, you're saying. No, so same thing. So just like you can grind it for kiddush, so why can't you do boir then? Because you need that right there for the seudah. When? Maror isn't... Yeah, he's right. You need it for the seudah. You need it right then. But you don't need the maror. Sure, for the karpas. You need it for the karpas. Okay, Rabbei, say next. Birur l'alter. He was mevarer for right away, so l'misaif. But I said you can't. But you started the seudah, you made it very serious. Although you don't make it before. Before the Haggadah. So you can't do boir. After the kiddush, you can't do any boir after the meal. Of course, he holds it's in the seudah. No, if I can, he's learning it's a big hefsek, too long. But I'm saying it's a kiddush. A little kiddush, kiddush part of the seudah. That's what I'm clarifying. Is it a seudah d'gadol? That's the toyre. This is the toyre. It's a seudah, same seudah. Huh? Okay, so you have never come to my house. My house, Yetzias Mitzrayim took quicker than the Haggadah takes in my house. So it was an half an hour. So it was almost half an hour. I want you to know, half an hour, I want you to know something very... Brisker. Yeah, in my house. Not because of the Haggadah, because of the arba banim. Because of the sheishes banim, it takes very long in my house. I want you to know. One year, I'll tell you one year, we prepared a lot of Haggadahs. My zeide was alive. I say there was a real Chofetz Chaim talmid. Mamish, everything that the Chofetz Chaim would do, it was this thing in our house, we got to do the same thing. So I remember one year, we were so excited, Pesach in the olam, we came together. The zeide walks in by Kiddush, Rabosai, tonight the seder is taking 45 minutes to an hour, the whole thing. I'll never forget, my father was looking at, What are you talking? Bubby doesn't feel good. He spoke in Yiddish. Bubby feels טוב. The mamme feels good. Kibud av va'em is d'Oraisa. The rov mitzvos halaylahs and derabbanan. Hagadah, you could be yotzei with ein vav, and he went through the whole cheshbon, 45 minutes. The seder was over in 45 minutes. Everything was done in 45 minutes. Within an hour, she was sleeping. Bubby went to sleep. The mamme went to sleep. Finished. That was the seder. So what did we do afterwards? Whenever she went to sleep, we sat at least. Hagadah with my father till... we spent the time, but seder was over within an hour. Done. You're saying Reb Shlomo Zalman read Haggadah in a half an hour. That's it. You know why? Because he didn't want to be matriach his rebbetzin probably. I guarantee you that's what it was, his rebbetzin. It's a whole different way of thinking. I'm telling you. You want to know the truth is...

I feel very strongly about certain things inside, and I hold myself back. There's a group here in Westgate that has no idea what they're talking about, and it bothers me to no end. They have no havanah, they have no shimush, they have no mesorah. Everything's about mevatel and kanoius and the halan Shulchan Aruch. They don't know what they're talking about. They never saw Gedolei Yisrael. Gedolei Yisrael, the whole thing was to try to find heter where people were in trouble, where people were tichan tzibbur. It was such a big thing. I can't explain to you. So ... everybody's a meshugeneh, and Rav Moshe's a meshugeneh, everybody's meshugayim. What are you talking about? The Gedolei Olam you're talking about. It bothers me very much. I don't want to tell you stories, but things bother me here to no end, to no end. I hear—I mean... Now, I guess tomorrow, what? Okay. ... Let me tell you, there's nobody that's more machmir than me in my house, okay? You want chumras, come to my house. You see chumras and chumras upon chumras upon chumras upon chumras, okay? I'm tremendously machmir in everything. ... There's a mesorah from Gedolei Olam in how to pasken a she'eilahs. Everything became hefker. Chumras became hefkeres. It's crazy, crazy. All right. Huh? The Mishnah Berurah was kodesh kodashim. You have to understand the Mishnah Berurah. Okay, I told this maaseh how many times? I'll repeat it one more time, okay, and we'll stop over here. Tomorrow we'll ... beautiful, telling you, we're gonna learn this sugya l'alto till the end. Rav Zack sent it over. I heard it from a few people that the Chofetz Chaim paskens that a soup—I'm sorry, that a chametz on Pesach is not batel at all, even b'rov, it's not batel. Not batel. Bitul, b'zman issur, once Pesach comes, there's no bitul. L'maaseh, a lady came—a husband came into the Chofetz Chaim. A piece of challah fell into the soup against his wife, okay. Chofetz Chaim thought and thought, and he said... So Rav Zack asked him, 'Are you writing your Chofetz Chaim, Mishnah Berurah, does he?' So he said—that was the story—he said, 'Klar,' he said, 'How can I answer? It's their food for Yontif. Do you understand what the machlokes is going to come from? The wife prepared—this is all she prepared. In those days that was the soup, the chicken was in the soup and everything was in the soup, right? Dessert was in the soup. Wait, whatever they put into the soup, right? Dessert, everything was in the soup. Now what happened? I'm serious. What's wrong? The kneidel was the thing, and then the carrot was the dessert, and the kitza, so... So he works hard, he's looking forward for Pesach, he comes home, his wife made the soup. You know what it's going to turn into? I have to... But he writes clear in the Mishnah Berurah. Okay, everybody, so we'll stop over here because of Maariv. We'll continue tomorrow. We have minyan. Okay, we'll continue tomorrow. Beautiful... I know, I know. My children are very good. My children are very good people. Why is he starting? He knows.