Hilchos Borer: Moving Clothes to Reach a Garment—Siluk, Piles, and Shtei Minim

Transcript

To give you a chance. Okay, today, b'ezras Hashem, I want to talk about geder by clothing, all the different cases, geder by clothing. So you have to begin with a Mishnah Berurah, seif katan tes-vav, where the Mishnah Berurah writes, So here he speaks about begadim and keilim, and therefore you have to be mevarer, זה המין שרוצה ליטול. And then he says, ואפשר. This shtikel Mishnah Berurah, b'ezras Hashem, is one of the Mishnah Berurahs which—there's so much, there's so much halachos deduced from this Mishnah Berurah, so many chilukim in hilchos borer come from this shtikel Mishnah Berurah. V'efshar, they include כאן begadim al hakoisel, ומחפה איזה חפיגדא שרוצה אחריו ומחשב בליבו, ועל ידי זה מוכרח לסלק מתחילה כל שאר הבגדים, ויהא בכלל בורר. So this is when the begadim are on the koisel and he's מוכרח לסלק. So the Acharonim identify this as siluk v'lo borer. This is siluk and not borer, which means I take off what's on top to get to what's on bottom. And he brings the next example of peiros. Acharonim, Menachem, the Kayar, כאן מינים יחד זה על זה. המין שראוי לאכל מניח למטה, ומסלק אלו שמניח למעלה כדי שיוכל להגיע להמין שלמטה, ולית לן לאהווי בכלל בורר. Chevra, this is tziluk. The lashon of the Mishnah Berurah is v'efshar. It's the first thing you have to notice. The din of siluk in the Mishnah Berurah never was machria, so to speak, in the Mishnah Berurah. He says it as a v'efshar, efshar, תלוי, קא מיבעיא. So does he need to pasken it? Does he need to pasken it? The Torah's efshar? Does he mean stam it's an efshar? So if you look at the Biur Halacha in that, in the Biur Halacha it's mashma more that he is machria. It's mashma more that he is machria, because in the Biur Halacha he brings down, ואחר תשעה יש כמה אחרונים, במקום מירה דבנייננו אין להחמיר בזה. It's mashma you shouldn't be machmir. ואפילו כשנצרך ביחד היתר ורוצה לברר כדי להניח לאחר זמן, ושלא ישאר שם בורר היכא דלאכול מיד בפני עצמו. ולא החמירו בזה, למסוף רק מטעם שעה חיוב, דכיוון דביררנו בנייננו דלזו חיוב, וכל גוונא נראה דאין להחמיר בדבר. See the Biur Halacha? At the end of the Biur Halacha, this is this case. לכל מיד, right? He brings the issue of yad. And after he brings the issue of yad... This is the famous Yeshush Yankif. That's the famous Yeshush Yankif. Well, okay. I think it's better this way. Okay. Okay, this is the famous Yeshush Yankif, all right? So then in the middle, he brings down this halachah. V'efsher. This is the case that we have over here. Right, kol zeh l'shayach kiyum, she'aminah murav. U'mesaken hamina dibrei chaveiro, ma she'ein kein k'shemuna b'kaira min echad, al min shelomatah mimenu, u'mesalek lamin shel'maalah, l'hagia l'min shel'matah l'shayach b'zeh tikkun she'ein nikra melachah shetzrichah l'gufah. And then he goes through yes or no, and then he says that you shouldn't be machmir. So l'choirah, in the Biur Halachah, it's mashma that he's a shtickel more machria. Okay. But I think we have to make a starka diyuk, rabosai. Yeah.

How come by the clothing does he speak about tluyim, they're hanging, and he doesn't speak about that they're one on top of the other? By the next case, by the fruit, he talks about one on top of the other. So if you can clarify, it's a nice answer, huh? Unless you can come and say, practically they had it, they might— that's what I want to say. Efsher in those days, they didn't have this metzius that they folded clothing and they put one on top of the other. Maybe the whole metzius wasn't like this. The what? They never had that many clothing, I don't think. And they didn't fold one on top of the other. I'm saying, no, but you know, these look— obviously the Mishnah Berurah brings the story that they were tluyim, so obviously they were hanging the clothing. Yeah, I'm saying they didn't have lots of cabinets and spaces. Right, so I'm saying, could be the Mishnah Berurah just brought the case which was matzui b'yamim, but en hachanami, hu hadin if the begadim would be in the same scenario as the peiros, it would be the same thing. Or maybe, I could hear a very big nafka mina. When begadim are hanging, so they're not pressing one on top of the other in a form that it's considered a package. I don't know. It's not muchach. I could hear that if you fold one on top of the other— I'll give you an example. L'mashal, what would you call a deck of cards and a thing of paper? I would say that's mamash more me'urav, even though it's one on top of the other. I would say that's a little bit more compact. That's different, because you can't see the card that you're looking for necessarily. Exactly what I'm getting to. Exactly. So write this down, because we're going to get to this in two seconds, okay? So again. The diyk is emes chabeisai. I'm making a diyk. The diyk is, the diyk is that it's talking about, it's one on top of the other, it's one next to another hanging. Lu yetzuyer it was one on top of the other, right? ... if you know, because you have the daas that's there. We don't know yet. I first want to get the diyk out. The diyk out is that the Mishnah Berurah never spoke about one on top of the other. He spoke about hanging. One on top of the other, he talks about fruit. So you can come and say, just maaseh shehaya kach haya. He's bringing you the scenario that he had in his time, okay. Or maybe we could say no, that the story of the piles... Shlomo, I see on your face. I love you. My wife said to me, she says, Go learn Torah. She says, To not say hi to anybody at my home. She says, You look horrible. Just go to bed. You look, you look, you look. I saw already from yesterday Mincha, you look stressed. It's awesome. I came to learn... Shlomo, you sit next to me, and you're my child tonight, okay, come. Sit down. I want to say, in BMG, they coded together this year on a rainy day. Okay, so you give me a little more time, and you know that I'm going to go through all of it. You know I'm going to go through all of it. Boirer? Yeah, boirer. Feinstein Torah. Right? That's how the yeshiva introduced it, right? ... Wow, okay. ... Tell me the diyk is good, the diyk is good. He switches, you know, he goes from the hanging on the wall to the fruit on the plate. Why can't it be clothing, one on top of the other? Hebrew, we call it an areimah. Areimah is a pile. I'm sure the rabbi's not going to make a diyuk. Why didn't he talk about fruit that was hanging? No, that part I'm not going to do, correct. So give me a few minutes, and we're going to get to all this. We're going to get to it. I just want to know, is it bedavka? Okay. So you could say it's lav davka, or maybe you could say that it's davka. Areimah is davka. Why is it areimah davka? Pashut, you have to smile. You have to smile. When you come into this beis medrash, it's all about ois v'chesed. It's good, yeah? It's good. Okay. I'm afraid to look, then I'm not going to say what I want to say. It's a new sefer that came out. Good, it's good. Okay. It's a new sefer. I try not to get the mussar, because then I'm not going to say anything. It's not some Torah. I know someone. If it's his own Torah, it wouldn't bother me. It's like I can argue. It's not his own Torah, I can't argue. So, rabbei sai, could be it's lav davka, or maybe it is davka, and I...

You could hear a svara that when something is hanging on a wall, it's not as compact and as considered as a bunch together as much as if it's one on top of the other. And there are classic examples of chafetzim which are one on top of the other, which could be brought into that example, and that is cards, paper. And Reb Shlomo Zalman Taka writes that cards and paper, you're allowed to pick out the one you want, meaning you're allowed to take off the top ones to get to whichever card or to whichever paper you want, because it's this Mishnah Berurah. Mechora, the way we're learning, maybe not. Maybe hanging on the wall is one thing, but a deck of cards or paper, which is mamish put together, it's compacted together, maybe not. But Reb Shlomo Zalman in Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa, perek gimmel, siman gimmel says, yeah, okay. Now, what about peiros? Peiros, I would say, is a little different. Peiros never become a pile. I don't believe an apple and an orange is the same thing as a deck of cards and paper. They're not put together in a way, meaning the nikar svara is much more, and that's what I wanted to get to, his svara. Is the cheshbon of the Mishnah Berurah where I could see what I want, or the cheshbon of Mishnah Berurah is I just can't even see it because it's just so mixed in with the rest of the things? The see-through help where I could see, because the case of peiros, I could hear that lemaaseh I know where it is. I'm going for the lemaaseh, you see? It's a different... Hold, it's emes la'amito. The story of the fruit, I know that the fruit is the orange on the bottom. I see it. If you have a bowl and there are apples and oranges, you know, you see the orange on the bottom, so you take the apple to get to the orange. So maybe it's only there. And then I argued completely on Shitas Zalman. Shitas Zalman is learning that the case of the cards is the case of begadim not true maybe because begadim is hanging and it's not piled. I, the case of the fruit, maybe the fruit is different. Okay. It's not a real pile. It's not a real pile. You can't pile up an apple on top of an orange. It doesn't make sense. It's not like a deck of cards and a paper. So, hagah but l'dait. It's not the same. Anybody with... I stack a plate. Everybody brings it down. That doesn't mean I'm not לומר the truth, right? Just because everybody brings down something. But seichel hayashar, seichel hayashar can tell me that if a deck of cards, right, the middle cards is me'urav with the rest of the deck, mashenken an apple and orange. You take the shuffle and mix the cards. What you want. I mean, it's mamash, you're talking about a deck of cards. A stack of plates are identical. Again, same thing. A stack of plates, it's compact, you know, it's something else. It's identical. Identical wouldn't be. Identical would get to... Okay. Now, let me go one step further, okay? So the first diyuk, habaisai, the first diyuk is, the first diyuk is by begadim he doesn't say pile. He says hanging. The second diyuk is that by fruit he says that he's going for the l'mata, which means he seems to know, he seems to know what he's looking for. So maybe it's something that it's niker. Okay. Now let's ask another shayla. What's his svara for that? Why should... His svara is because it's siluk, and I'll show you that the Acharonim are arguing in how to learn this Mishnah. I'm saying, why should siluk make a difference if what's under is niker or not? Let's say you know that your thing is there, your code is under this pile. You don't know exactly. You don't see it. So the fact that I'm searching it could be a baira. I'm select, not this, not this. I'm trying to get to something. You know it's on the bottom. But if I know where I'm going to—how about if you take off the top till you see it? You're just taking off the top. You know it's on the bottom, but when you get down to—then I can hear it's more derech. I can hear that that's more derech baira. I can hear that that's more derech baira. Baira is, I'm selecting. It's not this, it's not—I'm trying to get to. But if I know where I'm going for and I'm just removing, like the peel— You mamash throwing it out. This code— I agree with you that you could say yes, but I could hear the svara that it's not the same. I could hear it. I could hear it. That's the whole shayla, how to learn the Mishnah Berurah. Exactly tonight's shiur. Tonight's shiur is to explain: do we look at the fixing? Do we look at the word siluk? Do we look at the word baira? I mean, what is the main part of this Mishnah Berurah? It's not pashut at all. The Acharonim discussed this Mishnah Berurah at great length. You have to know if that in your shayach, a tikkun for that thing. The Mishnah Berurah says that it is. I have a mixture. I want to eat them separately. So that's a shayla. That's the—so b'halacha says. So b'halacha says it's not. Therefore it's mutar.

But that's the nekudah. Okay, so let's go one step further. In the story of selim, yeah, do you have to use the bottom one l'alter? Good shaylah, yeah? Obviously, because that's not... It's because you're doing a maiseh. You're doing an act. The sheini said for me, I could just sit back and enjoy. So let me tell you vaiter. Do I have to take the coat that I want now? Do I have to have the fruit that I want now? The two Mishnah Beruras, yeah, if you're going for the bottom one and you're mesalek, what about that bottom one? Do I need to eat it l'alter? Do I have to use it l'alter? If you hold it's b'chalal not borer, so then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right? But the story of the Mishnah Berurah is that I'm not using it l'alter. I'm looking for my coat to wear, and I'm looking for the fruit to eat. The only thing is, if you look at the Biur Halacha, v'hu rotzeh levarer k'dei l'haniach l'achar zman, u'mishum d'lo shayach shem borer heich d'chal min nikar, v'lo hechmir bazeh ela b'soif rak mi'taam shash chiyuv. So it could be, since it's not borer at all, then ein hachanami, I don't even have to do it l'alter. One second. If somebody's taking off something and leaving it l'achar zman, so it would be a problem. Which one am I taking l'achar zman? You're taking the... I'm taking the top ones. I'm getting to that. And this one, you're doing b'ofen siluk, but then the one that you don't want, you don't want. One of them you're thinking, hmm, but I might want it later, so it's a problem. Yes, that's what I'm getting to. So you see, it is a matzav of borer. That's exactly what I'm getting to. So what you're doing is you're not letting—you say, this shirt, but I should be happy. What should I do? I don't want this, it's just stealing my taytel right in front of my face. No, I just thought that the Rav said not. Right in front of my face. I didn't say—I was saying the one I need. The one that I do want, do I have to take l'alter? Yeah, but I just thought that the Rav brought a raya that it's not a matzav of borer, so I was asking that the case of l'achar zman— I'm saying, if you hold it's not a matzav of borer, so then it's mutar to take the one I want, and the Biur Halacha says you're allowed to even l'achar zman. But now we're going to clarify, oi b'zoi should come out even the ones I do want, even the ones I don't want, I can put away l'achar zman. But it's not clear like that. That's not clear. It's not true. There's no clear anything not like that. The Aruch brings down from Acharonim that way. I mean, even here, even here, the ones I'm being mesalek, I could still want them. I'm mesalek them l'achar zman. What's wrong? It's not borer, it's not borer. ... The ein l'hachmir b'zeh, rak she'mesalko milmaalah v'daato b'viruso k'dei l'haniach l'achar zman. That's going on the thing that he wants, or the thing that he doesn't want? Let's read it again. Let's read it again. ... Which one are you reading? ... At the end? ... The last line? Five lines from the— Yeah, five lines from the wide lines. From the wide lines. You mean from a little higher up? No, no, no. From when they begin to become wide. One, two, three, four, five. ... Rak she'mesalko milmaalah v'daato b'viruso k'dei— that's— no. Could be it's on the one he wants. It's not clear. That's why I'm telling you, this Mishnah Berurah is very— this Biur Halacha is very problematic. I spent years learning this Mishnah Berurah. On one hand, it's mashma that even if it's l'achar zman, but then when you read the Mishnah Berurah, it could be he's being chozer from this. The shaylah would be, what happens if when I want to take the one l'maalah... B'mesalek it to use it l'achas zman. So it's talui in this shaila again. If you learn it's a ma'aseh breirah, so then you wouldn't be able to take the top one for l'achas zman. But if you learn it's not a ma'aseh breirah, then you can even take the top one for l'achas zman. So that becomes the shaila. So again, shaila number one: clothing in a pile, no mishtabur like that. Mishnah Berurah. So I'm saying hu hadin, all right, efshar. I'm מסתמא in that new sefer it says hu hadin, all right, that's what I say. Then the shaila number two: fruits. Fruits could be a different case. Fruits are not pressed together as one. You're not gonna tell me the apple and the orange became one because of the same bowl, right? So maybe that's where siluk works. But where taka is mamash smashed together, where it becomes—you fold up shirts and pants and whatever—I could hear that it's not the same thing. I could hear. A deck of cards for sure not, you know. I mean, that cards mamash are compact. It's like one thing. The what?

You want to know something? That's where I got it from. Remember, he asked me, and I told him chol might be a little different. That's where I got it from, because this was my cheshbonos. Chol is a different story. Okay, you'll handle the ... yourself. We're never going to get in. But afterwards he says clearly, Aval im eino choshev oydosoi klal, rak sherotze l'hasiro. Meaning, we were talking about the one he does not want. Right. K'dei l'hagia l'minshal... Ze lo havi bichlal borer klal. Klal. But if he is choshev oydosoi, the one that he does not want now— Possibly. Correct. But the lomdus doesn't work out. I'll see another. Because, if you hold that it's takanah ma'aseh borer, so then what's the difference? If I don't want it, that's not borer. I'm saying, how does that work? Because if— if selek means it's nikar bifnei atzmai... You know what it is? I agree with you if you learn that the sevara is selek. But if you learn the sevara is nikar, selek is more than just the physical action that you're doing. It's the machshavah. Are you misalek this thing, or do you have a kavanah in this thing? But if you learn the sevara is nikar, like he says on the next page, the sevara is not about selek; it's more about nikar. So if it's nikar, then it shouldn't make a difference anyway. If selek is attached, it's not me'urav. If it has to do with the me'urav sheboi, then it's done. If it has nothing to do with the me'urav sheboi, then what's the difference? Where's the other lashon? This lashon is very clear. This lashon is clear. Turn the page. Turn the page. It's not the same case. It's the same story. So he continues. He goes through the klal, and then he says, ... What's the... Continue, the next line, the next page. Afilu ksav Yad v'Hu roitz levarer kedei nicha l'achar zman, mishum d'lo shayach shem boirer, heich d'chal mini gufei atzmoi. That's the problem, the mishburah says so. That's where the problem is. So read it. It's telling the same story. It's the same story. How do we keep you up, Shlomo? It's not gonna work. Okay. It comes out a very big chiddush, according to this. What happens if you have begadim that are taka me'urav? Does he mean all begadim is not shayach l'iruv because it's always tziluk? So if I have it piled up neatly, it's taka okay. But lo yetzuyar I have begadim which are all mixed up together, am I allowed to be mesalek? That's the nafka. If you learn it's a sevara in tziluk, so tziluk with iruv is also good. And if you learn it's a sevara that it's nikar, not nikar, so by taruves... So I said a talmid, a real talmid, said to talmid mine a few years ago, Reb Chaim answered l'choira, l'choira — those are the words he told him three times, l'choira, l'choira, l'choira — it would be a problem of siluk by taruves, because he was learning that the problem is the nikar, the not nikar, not the siluk sheloi. This is Rav Eisai straight off the press. I don't know if you'll see this anywhere. He called me back to tell me that Reb Chaim said three times the word l'choira. What's the pshat? Because of the safek. That's what Reb Chaim was clarifying, the same shaila, how to learn this biur halacha. You learn the biur halacha, it's a siluk dehalacha, so siluk, you don't have teruves; siluk is siluk. What's the difference? Or do you learn it's a nikudik halacha? So if it's a nikudik halacha, even siluk. Okay, I'll give you a minute to penetrate, because it's very, very... The question is, how do you ever determine in which cases siluk is...? I'll tell you the answer. I was thinking about that today. You know what I was thinking today? How is any posek supposed to answer over the phone these shailos? You have the basic... Okay, truthfully, I'm going to get myself into trouble for talking. You bring it closer. I'm afraid. Don't tell anybody I said this. Can you tell me, in all honesty, that any rav, unless he's Rav Moshe Feinstein, you can call up and he'll answer you all this? Doesn't make sense. You know, I'm... you had a shaila, he answers you. He wrote a teshuva, they got back to you. How else is this supposed to work? How is someone supposed to be honest? You think a lot of the shailos are asked now, nowadays, are much more... Not true. If a guy calls a boir like this, boir like this, you think he remembers all the klalim, to remember the case, to remember the...

I think so. If I have to first, I don't have to first. Well, yeah, yeah. It's all the same stuff over and over. They have the handbook, pamphlet handbook. Yeah, yeah. Spoons and knives, huh? When Rabbi calls it a different story, of course, different story. I'm calling back. But I'm saying the shaila is, your hold is more pashut, yes or no? It's all standard. It's the same question. You know, the nine-day showers. I know the nine-day. I was by what's-his-name, by for the nine days, by Rav Feldman. I sat there. Every two seconds the phone rings also, eat, drink, shower, eat, drink and shower. That's what it was. Yeah, no, it was one of the taanis, it wasn't Tisha B'Av. The other one, Shivas... I think it was. It was right before. It was on Shivas, I think it was on Shivas. Was it a Friday? Which taanis was on a Friday this year? Only on Tzom Tammuz. Did something fall on a Friday recently, this year, last year? Separating the challah? Yeah. Cutting it in half. Yeah, that I heard. He sent it over here. He sent it by the shiur, he said it. I heard that shiur. That's one of the most common things, yeah, hafrashas challah. Every mora in town. I don't think they ever got a letter. I'd be surprised if they ever got a letter. Unless, maybe... It's interesting. I don't want to get into trouble, but it's very strange. Dilapsak is a weird thing. You know, hold, it's just a dialer service, a pashte shailos. You know, in Hebrew they call it teshuvat al hamadrigot. You know that? It's teshuvat al hamadrigot. It's an expression in Hebrew, teshuvas al hamadrigot. He asks the God while he's walking up the steps. So he answers you as he's walking up the steps. Mutar, asur, mutar. He's looking at him. Can I tell you what I hold about Rav Shlomo Zalman? I hold Rav Shlomo Zalman was just a tzaddik and tremendous yachid. Rav Shlomo Zalman was such a noki, he was so pure that... there's no... I don't think it was English. The Russians must have been nice then, I don't think. Did they have learning in those days? When he spoke, he wasn't... he spoke to the ... it wasn't such a... When Yosher was the ... with the photograph, remember? What? You're talking about tzaddik yesod olam. You're talking about a noki. You're talking about a person that probably never said a bad word about another Yid. You're talking about a ... tzaddik. Pek kaddish, what? Yeah, he never did anything wrong, right? I'm saying, you're talking about a pek kaddish. You're not talking about a person, a regular person. I'm talking about a pek kaddish. Anyways, b'kitzur, so now that I said this, I can we go vayter. So you hear? You hear? I said my piece for tonight. So that's the shaila. The shaila, what are we gonna do for minyan? I don't know, minyan tonight. What about the ... with the black Satura, the famous black Satura? Okay, so we're gonna get to it. I'm not finished yet with all the information. So the style is like this. So again, nachamot, nachamot, nachamot, nachamot. Is it about tziluk? Is it about licker? And this would be the nafka mina. If it's about licker, so then there's no borer. If there's no borer, so any way you do it, either you take the thing you want, lachasman, or the thing you don't want, you can put it away from the lachasman. It makes all no difference, and also taruves, it would make it if it's mixed up, right? Okay, if it's about— okay, later, later, let's go weiter, because we're never going to finish. Let's just— harav on the Mishnah, harav on it, harav on all my life. Come, let's go weiter. Now, so b'kitzur, oh, the din of tziluk: is it mutar when he knows what he's looking for, or even if he's looking to find something? He knows his coat is in the pile, so he's tziluk to get to that coat. Or the pshat is he doesn't even know his coat's there; he stops searching. Is that also shem tziluk? Ma yidige shaila. A guy has a pile over, he's thinking, Is my coat here? So he starts taking one by one off. Is it there? It's not there. But he doesn't know. Is that called tziluk, or tziluk?

Because maybe what you know it's there, and you're trying to get to what you know over there. So the truth is, the lashon of mishapes, mechapes, yeah? The lashon is, the im תלוי קאמן בגדם על הכיסא, or mechapes אחר בגדו. First we see שרוצה עכשיו ללבושו, which means that he has to want to wear it now, is one thing. But the word mechapes, so either you could say mechapes means he's looking to find something, or mechapes maybe means he's looking to find if it's there. Very nice shaila. Okay, next shaila. What would you call coats? Yeah, he's looking for his coat, but he doesn't know it's there. Who said he knows it's there? I could hear if he knows it's there, so then it's all the seichel to get to something. If you don't even know it's there, maybe it's different. I'm choosing. Yeah, I'm saying on the nikkasvara I can't make a difference, but on the seichel svara, if it's just about seichel, I could hear if you have something and you're trying to get to that something, you know where you're trying to get to. But if you don't even know where you're trying to get to, you're trying to find something, so then it's breira. You're choosing, is this coat, not this coat, not this coat, not that coat. Sure, it's on bottom. You don't know. You don't know, I'm asking. You don't know. You don't know. I mean, you know that something that you're looking for is on the bottom. No, you don't. It might not be. No, you don't. Maybe my coat's there. Then why are you just— Because I'm looking through the pile of coats, maybe my coat's there. Then picking up each one and checking. You are. You're looking. It's not in, it's not in, it's not in, it's not in. Plus, it's the whole pile of coats. Yeah. So on the top, is there any side of the top fifteen are in? Maybe. So then he has to pick it up to see the seichel. You have to look. Okay, you pasken, I have no problem. I'm a very liberal element. I let everybody pasken. Like Reb Chaim, you can ask, he should wear a jacket for thirty minutes. Okay. Now, that's what he's talking about. Okay. Now I have a different shaila. What would you call coats on a rack? Are coats on a rack min echad? Especially yeshiva shekeots. Yeshiva shekeots are all the same. Every guy is wearing the same coat. So maybe the story of teluyim is not in the case of coats, because it's all min echad. No, min echad there's no borer, no? Min echad there's no borer, no? They're all hanging, and it's min echad. I'm asking a pashut shaila. There's issur involved, right? Let me give me a few minutes. It's a good shaila, and let's go weiter. Let me show you where I got the answer to this shaila. The kitzur, l'maaseh, someone just threw out a good sevara. Yeah, the coats might be the same, but they're owned by different people, yeah? So I saw ... I found ... psak, beautiful. He says in Chut Shani, it has to be the coats are literally different, the clothing. He doesn't talk about coats; he talks about clothing. Not that it's different baalim, because the fact that it's different baalim does not ... make a difference. He said, we learned that by the ... I can't help it; it's considered min echad. It wasn't on this ... by the ... So ask Reb ... how you ... you said this one way, you said the opposite. Laita. The kitzur, no, but the shaila is, I'm saying, even if you hold, even if you hold that there's a problem of siluk, I mean, l'maaseh it's min echad anyway. I'm asking a pashut kasha: it's min echad. Different coats. When you have hanging coats, there's nothing. You don't have to come on to this mishnah berurah בכלל; it's min echad. Teretz is different owners is not called min echad. What about different styles of coats? I don't know. One coat is chaves with a belt, and one coat's not belted. I don't know, does that make it to shtei minim? Or a different shaila: how about raincoats and winter coats? Oh, we'll talk about it. You have to let me talk a little bit. Raincoats, you hear, and winter coats. So I saw in Nissan Karelitz writes that bigdei kayitz and bigdei choref is considered shtei minim. Bigdei kayitz and bigdei choref. So the truth is, I don't know if this—who says he meant different coats, you know, like raincoat and regular coat. Maybe he meant mamash two completely different bigdei kayitz and bigdei choref. I don't know. B'kol panim, lichora a raincoat and a regular coat would be shtei minim, okay? But you know me, I can't swallow all this. I have to come up with kocha d'heteira adif. I once told you this svara, and I found in the Yarza Meir, by begadim.

Remember I told you this svara, and I believed in it, and everybody was laughing at me? They laughed at Rav Romovino also. They make fun of whoever they want. You ready? The O Sameach says by begadim it's not shayach the sugya of shnei minim. It's begadim and kelim. Begadim and kelim together make shtei minim. In begadim it's not shayach shtei minim. It's an O Sameach Shabbos, perek ches, halacha yud aleph. Tell me, remember I asked you how to learn up that Mishnah Berurah, begadim and kelim? Remember that Mishnah Berurah? Okay, write down on the side of Mishnah Berurah. Rav Wolkin told you, עין אור שמח, all right? You don't have to need Rav Wolkin, it's fine. That's just theatrical. Mishnah Berurah says, כגון בגדים וכלים. Mishnah Berurah, write the last line of the previous page: כגון בגדים וכלים. I hope to get... Maybe if you learned the O Sameach, it has to be together. עין אור שמח, it has to be together. Remember I told you? Remember I told you how to learn up this Mishnah Berurah, and I said, Rabosai, you're gonna laugh at me? Whatever it is, kelim begadim, could be. Okay, but there's an O Sameach. That's all I wanted you to know. And m'meila, the minim have to be so different, the minim are so... Therefore different types of style of coats, I would tell you it's not shtei minim. I don't know if I want to say in the Mishnah Berurah, because, mistama, that's not what the Mishnah Berurah means, but that's not the point. I want to make a difference. It's not that strong. The difference has to be bolet. Just write this yesod: the difference has to be bolet by begadim and kelim. Now. What about a child and a grown-up? Same clothing, same clothing, child and grown-up. Same clothing, child and grown-up. Perfect example. You have different size shirts. Someone asked me about it. Wanted to talk about different size shirts. It's both shirts, both shirts, right? Or taruvos, whatever it's asur, because if it's ... anyway not asur. So if it's ... anyway not asur, right? But let's say it's in a taruvos where it should be asur even ... yeah? So what happens if it's different size shirts? What would you call that? It's shirts, different sizes. Shirts, sizes. Shirts, but different sizes. And this ... it says, shirts different sizes, and it's considered ... That's what I'm telling you. That's why they're ... It's different. You can't say ... That's what I'm trying to prove to you. It's not so poshut. By food there's ... Many sizes. Many sizes. I don't even know if he means that. It has to be ... It's a different sevara of ... I hold it's emes la'amito. You know, over the years you pick up ... Can I tell you the real truth? You know what it is when you learn things year after year after year? You get a feel for it, and nobody else can appreciate it. That's what it is. You talk to people who spent their time learning for years, they have a certain feel in halacha. You're right, they can't show you this word, that word, but you get a sense here. What's from this guy? He doesn't know the chiluk between ... and ... What's he talking about? It's because in shtei minim and in begadim, it's different. It's a whole different sugya. That's a shaila of niker. It's a whole different shaila. Interesting. Which we didn't address much on it. That's the shaila. On the din of begam, this year is to show you that from one line of Mishnah Berurah, which the Mishnah Berurah and the Biur Halacha tries to prove it's true even. Not even sure that in the Mishnah Berurah says efshar, and the Biur Halacha, he comes and he clarifies it's true or not true. And how to learn it up. You know, things that the poskim of his day were working with maybe, maybe standard. He tried to make a hachra. Okay, so let's discuss like this. His case, he has a very good example: a shirt of a child and a shirt of a grown-up, okay? Now I have a shaila. What happens if it's in grown-up shirts, but it's different sizes? You have small, you have extra, extra larges. You know, you can be from one mikatzan la-katzan. Maybe that's called one min. Maybe that's called one min, even though in sizes it's very, very... because it's not niker. If you go after the hishtamshus, and a chinami, the small guy is not going to wear the big shirt, and the big shirt guy can't wear the small shirt.

But if you learn that it's not niker, it ain't niker when they're folded; it's not really niker. The fact that it has a tag, the fact that it has a tag doesn't make it a niker. Yeah, but again, the hanging up, we have Mishnah Berurah's heter anyway. I'm saying in ta'aroves. He says a vart that clothing, small and big, he says is yoled from a childhood thing, since the hishtamshus is different, so therefore it's going to be considered shtei minim. So I'm clarifying, I don't know, I don't know, it could be different. What? I know, I know, I know. It's a little different, the tag. It's svara if there's a tag on the outside, you can see what it is. Shailah is by the shirt, if it's niker with the inside. Not so pashut. This is nice shailos, these are nice shailos. Final and last shailah, and then we'll go down. We don't have minyan, so I don't know what to do. Bigdei Shabbos and bigdei chol. Bigdei Shabbos and bigdei chol. So Rav Dovid Karelitz writes that if it's very different, there's a very, very big difference, then it has a din of shtei minim. So I thought of a very good example: the shirts. weekday shirts and Shabbos shirts. By a rich baal habos, there's a very big difference between a weekday shirt and a Shabbos shirt. It has designs and cufflinks, but not like the sheinah zach. Yeshivishe guy, it's the same shirt, you know, just white on white. Yeah, white on white. You wear white on white? You wear white on white. You're a tzaddik. I didn't know anybody. Wait till your kids get old and you wear stained on white. When you get old, you wear stained on white. That's your Shabbos shirt. Shabbos stained on white, that's the shirt. I'm saying, so if it's an initial shirt, but the shailah is with the initial shirt, I don't know how niker it is. I don't know how niker it is. Okay, so the kitzur, all I'm trying to bring out from this shiur is that by begadim, okay, by begadim, the niker problem is complicated, and it could be the whole sugya is complicated, because maybe even by ta'aroves, siluk is mutar. Even by ta'aroves, siluk is mutar. Or maybe the pshat is that even if it's piled together, that's not this mishtake. Mishnah Berurah talks about hanging, but maybe piled together is not even— Or it's worse. Piled together might be worse, because it's not the same thing as the hanging on the wall. Okay, rabosai, that's it for tonight.