Hilchos Sechitah on Shabbos: Dosh vs. Libun, Squeezing Fruit, and Modern Juices

Transcript

שין חף. דיני שחיטה בשבת. So, the hakdamah that has to be given is that there's two types of shechita. And when I say types, which means they come from two different melachos. There's one shechita which is shayach to dosh, comes from mefarek, which is a toldah of dosh, and the other shechita has to do with libun, that when you shecht something from a beged, it could be melaben, cleaning the beged. So this is a gevaldige hakdamah, but it's not really mine. It's actually a Mishnah Berurah a little bit later. It's not in the beginning of Shin Chaf, but it's actually in se'if yud-ches, Divrei HaMaskil, Yesh Mi SheMatir. ביאר הענין בקצרה, כי ידוע דעת רבינו תם בסייעתו, דיש שני ענייני שחיטה. It's in the Biur Halachah. Yesh Mi SheMatir. Yesh Mi SheMatir, ביאר הענין בקצרה, כי ידוע דעת רבינו תם וסייעתו, דיש שני ענייני שחיטה. Does he mean that there's two issurim, or maybe they're different? I think the Biur Halachah is trying to say that they're different b'yesod, in yonei shechita, which means even in the shem shechita, they're different. היינו, שחיטה ממים, when you take out water from something, issur mishum libun, ולא משום דש. Why? כי המים הולכים לאיבוד. It can't be dosh, because by dosh it's to fix the food, what's coming out. The dash is what's coming out, and that has to be lekiyum. Ma she'ein kein, ma she'ein kein, by libun v'kert. The libun is the beged, is the thing that you're pulling the water from. So even if the mayim holchim l'ibud, you're still chayiv. That's this biur halacha. V'yesh, right? V'loi mishum dash, ki hamayim holchim l'ibud, v'loi dami l'dash, because by dash, you're pulling something out from its original form, but that's fixing, because you want that thing that you're taking out. That's dash. U'v'shar mashkin hu hahepech mishum libun, ein bam, v'ein melabnin bam, right? Let's say if you took the juice out of a fruit, you're not being melaben the fruit; you're not washing it. Ela issuru mishum dash. Okay, so there's two inyanei sechita. Shin chaf, in the beginning, is dash. That's this first Mishnah Berurah. Hasochtan chayiv mishum mefarek, se'if katan aleph, d'hu toldah d'dash. So se'if katan aleph is explaining that se'if aleph is the sechita of dash, right? It's just hakdamah, it's called paperwork, okay? So dinei sechita b'Shabbos, we're going to learn that there's two parts to sechita, two inyanim to sechita. As we learn, you'll see Yud Ches becomes sechita of libun, but here in the beginning it's sechita of dash. Hasochtan chayiv mishum mefarek, d'hu toldah d'dash. Okay. Now, if you take a look, the case: zeisim v'anavim, zeisim v'anavim asur l'sachtan. You're not allowed to do sechita for zeisim v'anavim. This is a Mishnah in the Gemara in Shabbos kuf mem gimmel. See the Beragayla, teichen su the Gemara already. So that's zeisim v'anavim. What about all other fruits and vegetables? So the Shulchan Aruch speaks about another case: tutim v'rimonim. Tutim are berries, rimonim is pomegranates, and that's not the same halacha as zeisim v'anavim, because zeisim v'anavim is asur l'sachtan. Tutim v'rimonim is a little different. What's different? It is asur l'sachtan, but yet im omdim l'achilah, then it's mutar. It depends what the purpose is. Meaning, if there's something which is omed l'achilah, which we have to explain what that means. So who is it omed l'achilah, by you, by the world? We'll still get to this in a few minutes. So the classic basic case of shechitah is zeisim v'anavim asur l'sachtan. The case of tutim v'rimonim, we'll see, is up for differentiation between if it's omed l'achilah, if it's not omed l'achilah. What's the nafka mina? Because zeisim v'anavim is d'Oraisa. Tutim v'rimonim is only mid'Rabbanan. So when the Chachamim assered it, they only assered it if it's omed l'achilah, but if it's not omed l'achilah, they didn't asser. So zeisim v'anavim, that's what the Mishnah Berurah means.

Sochtan, huh? Im oymdim l'achilah mutar, im oymdim l'mashkin asur, v'im oymdim l'achilah mutar. Asur l'sachtan, v'im yatza me'atzman, im oymdim... Yeah, I'm saying, but there's chilukim. I'm saying if it's yatza me'atzman, right? I'm saying, I ain't explaining it 100%, but that's what I meant. Im oymdim l'achilah becomes mutar because it's only derabbanan. Case one, zeis v'anavim is de'oraisa. Tutim v'rimonim is derabbanan, and that's what it means, asur l'sachtan. That's pshat in the Mishnah Berurah, v'asur l'sachtan chayav. He's trying to say that the chiluk between the first case and the second case is by the first case you're chayav, while the second case you wouldn't be chayav. It's asur, but you're not chayav. I'm just doing paperwork, so to speak, in the Mishnah Berurah, that when you read it you don't know exactly the whole sugya, so I'm giving you the sugya behind the words, okay? So again, dinei sechitah b'Shabbos, there's dash, and then there's libun. And now we're talking about dash, and that's v'asochtan mefarek. Mefarek is a toldah of dash, separating, mefarek, which means you're taking out something from its original... You're separating the juice from the fruit, so that's called dash, which is mefarek, which is a toldah. Right, from its original... Libun is a different melachah. It has to do with melaben. So you're taking out water, which means you're cleaning by taking out the water. Why is that cleaning? When you wear it, you can't wear it when it's wet. Oh, not with food. Not with food. Clothing. Melaben is by clothing. So I thought, I was thinking, how do you get... The sechitah of towels and that is not... You squeeze a towel, then it's not mefarek, it's libun. If you don't mind, Rabosai, I'm sorry. It's been a long, long day. Quite a long day. Okay. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. ... I am. My pleasure. I know, but I'm still sorry. Okay. This Rabosai is the reading. Now let's get down to the yesod of the sugya, because once we know the yesod, we can talk about the different types of juices, right? Because today, Baruch Hashem, we were zocheh to have, thanks to Snapple, we were zocheh to have every type of juice you can think of. So we're going to have to discuss that, all right? So first let's see what zeisim va'anavim is. What's zeisim va'anavim? Why is it different? So Rashi in Kuf Mem Gimel says, because other peiros is lav orchei. It's not the normal thing to squeeze. Zeisim va'anavim is normal, because zeisim is shemen and anavim is yayin. That's the classic case of schita, okay? So it's orchei. Mashenkein teutim v'rimonim is not orchei. Okay. The Ran says a different yesod. The Ran says that these things, zeisim va'anavim, is mashkeh. When you're creating, you're creating mashkeh. We know for tumah and taharah there's a halachah of mashkeh, so there's zayin mashkin. It's machshir for tumah, zayin mashkin. Zeisim va'anavim is one of them. Teutim v'rimonim is not. So therefore the zeisim v'rimonim is mashkeh. So that becomes de'oraisa. Teutim v'rimonim, he says, lav mashkeh, and therefore it doesn't make schita de'oraisa. We'll discuss that. Okay, we'll talk, we'll talk, we'll talk. We're just starting, we're just starting. I'm giving an example, a dugma. We'll see, we'll soon see. We'll soon see, Rabosai. Now, again, I don't remember which Rishonim. Again, I learned the sugyas years ago, but I remember in the sugyas that there's two ways how to learn this Ran. Rishonim say either the pshat is because these are mashkeh, d'hainu zeisim va'anavim, mashenkein teutim v'rimonim. Or the pshat is, the other ones, not that they're not mashkeh, but they're oichel. They're food. When you take food and you disintegrate, if you take a piece of chicken, yeah, yeah, yeah, you rub it, you rub it down, it doesn't become a drink, right? It remains oichel. So the Ran, l'choira, could be read that it's not mashkeh; the other things, teutim v'rimonim. Or the Ran could be read that it's sherbet. Sherbet, what do they call it? Sherbet, sherbet. Sorry, I don't have the... sherbet, sherbet, right? It has an H in there? No, it's an O, right? It has an... sherbet. It does not... ... I never passed fifth grade, I never passed. When I... a sherbet is... and that's why I don't know how to say it, because it's without an H, right? It's S-O-R, sherbet.

You know, you know, you understand where I go? What? It has to do with stam mit French. The yesod of it's come from French, sorbet, so that's it. See? Ten lach. I'm a living example that you don't have to go to school, and you still don't. You can be very studious, as they say. Okay, b'kitzur, beisai, sherp. All right, I'll be moich you this time. Now, so when we learned the sugya, so we came out that there's actually two ways to learn. Either you learn the Ran mashke, or you learn the Ran that tutim v'rimonim is not pshat it's not mashke. It's oichel. It's oichel. When you grind up a tutim v'rimonim, it becomes a sherbet. It's a ganze. Okay. It's ground up. It's the same food. It's not shtiyah. It's not a drink. So either the pshat is... Yes, they do. The idea of dosh is to take—I'm giving you an example. When you grind something up, you understand that it's not going to turn into a drink. No matter how much you grind it up, it can remain the... Good, but the chiddush is, the chiddush is certain things become mashke. So the way to learn the Ran is that these things don't become mashke. All he's saying, even a teefer a vort, it's not pshat it doesn't become mashke; it remains oichel. No, they're not. That's... right, zeh ba. You see, that's what you see. I'm being careful. I'm dancing around before the word zeh ba, because I don't want to get to zeh ba yet. Zeh ba is another sugya; we'll get to it. I'm first telling you, don't bring in the word zeh ba. You know how I know this? Because the Chofetz Chaim wrote this. And how do I know? Because I learned the Mishnah Berurah well. Spent time learning the Mishnah Berurah. Mishnah Berurah never said one word about zeh. People shtel tzu, the Acharonim, the mefalel with zeh. We'll get to that a little bit later. Now, to show you that I'm just not stam giving you pilpul shiur, because that would be for first seder, let's take a look at the Mishnah Berurah, seif katan zayin, where he talks about shar kol hapeiros mutar l'sochtan. Says the Mishnah Berurah, mishum d'omdim la'achilah. It's meant to eat. V'leke d'boilu l'mashkin, and people don't use it for drink. To me, that rings of Urchei and not Urchei. If you know the background of the sugya, you'll notice that I did tremendous work for you here. What I did was I give you, behind the scenes, behind the lines, you'll notice that every sevara I just told you is actually behind the words of this Mishnah Berurah. Plus, one, mishum d'omdim la'achilah. Two, v'leke d'boilu l'mashkin, so maybe it has to do with Urchei. Ein shem mashka al hayotzei meihem, that sounds very much like the Ran to me. V'hafrichin marfir ochel mi'ochel, and that sounds like the second pshat I told you in the Ran. So far, gevaldig, huh? You see how to learn a Mishnah Berurah? There's a whole velt that—we'll just read this Mishnah Berurah, okay, good, that's good. But you see how the heilege Mishnah Berurah put them all together. So what I use it, I don't know. That's a good question. You see, that's where I come in. Where I come in, I'm going to come and clarify: you need all of them. And I'll tell you the truth, I'm going to soon show you that it's actually crafting in the Mishnah Berurah. There's a mechanics that is going on over here that you have to put—in other words, even this needs to be read properly. When it's read properly, you'll see a whole new yesod, not just the four shitas, but the four shitas, how they come together. That there's a fine line which connects the four shitas. So again, yehav mishum d'omdim la'achilah, that sounds like one sevara to me. V'leked d'boi l'mashkin, that sounds like Orchei the Rashi. Ein shem mashka la'yotzei mehu. Look at this. Ein shem mashkim sounds to me like the Ran. V'havi k'mafrid ochel me'ochel sounds very much to me like the sevara I told you how to learn up the second pshat in the Ran. I don't remember where. Again, you know, I don't have the—today I wasn't even here. I can't even look up where. I have somewhere in the back of my mind, I don't know, maybe Tosafos Rid. I don't remember where it comes from, this—the Ran, the different way of learning the— I don't know. I can't remember where it comes from, but you see it in the Mishnah Berurah here. V'havi k'mafrid ochel me'ochel. Okay. And like I said, later on we're going to tie it all together. I want to throw out a few more sevaras before—okay, you know, before we do that, important to note all this, because when you want to start stelling tzu all the different types of juices.

It's going to be very important to know the chiluk between zeisim, rimonim, and sharp peiros, because l'mashal, you want to say apple juice. Apple juice is a big tumah in the Acharonim. How about strawberry juice? So that's tutim, right? But kiwi juice? Okay, so orange juice, grapefruit juice, right? There's pieces in the orange juice, comes thick, not thick. It's totally on this. I'll tell you, years ago when I learned this sugya, I was a little bit—maybe today it became bigger because there's more sefarim and everything—I remember that it bothered me that there wasn't enough emphasis on this whole Mishnah Berurah. It bothered me very much. In other words, it was yesh derech, nisht derech. Do people make shechitah on these things? They don't make shechitah on these things. I think it's very shallow to just go through the sugya that way. I think you have to see more in this omdim l'achilah, l'akton l'mashkin, shemashkeh. By the way, I want to point out, there was a time that people drank grapefruit juice. Today people stopped drinking it. I don't see it כמעט anymore, and I don't see it so much, huh? Grapefruit juice? You כמעט don't see it anymore. Huh? The what? The parents. The kids don't drink it anymore, because I think we have the Snapples. Something's changed. Huh? It's not enough sugar in it. Something's changed. No, no, that's what it is. That's what it is. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. I know what I'm talking— I think about these things. It's weird things to think about, because... I notice certain zachin have changed. I notice you won't even find so many grapefruits in the store. Go into the store and see if you find grapefruit so much. You don't find, right? You're just looking along Kosher Westside aisle, you don't see grapefruit. Yeah, but there was a time of grief. Come on, listen. I looked at, I think about these things. Like I said, detail. Let me have everything in detail. Okay. Okay, let's go weiter. Let's go weiter, okay? I want to tell you a few more yesoidus, a few more yesoidus, a few more yesoidus that came out lefi the sugya. I think it's important that you should know, that came out when I learned the sugya. There's a yesod that since it's oimed lemashkin, so by taking out the juice, I created what it was oimed for, and it's like a gemiras pri. Since it's oimed lemashkin, remember I had raayos for this. Again, you're not going to make me go through the raayos, and I don't remember them offhand exactly, but I remember when I learned the sugya that this is what I came out with, that there's a part of shechita which is that I created the gemar pri, because since the pri is oimed lemashkin, so it's like a bishul, like just like I'm mevashel, the gemar is by being mevashel it, so by bringing out the juice, I'm yotzei. I created a davar shalem in oichel by making the mitz. A yesod, okay. Another yesod I'd like to tell you: derech ha'olam could be has to do with shinui. I'm not mistaken, it's a Tosafos Rid. Not that I'm almost positive, Tosafos Rid, that if something is derech ha'olam, so then it's derech, so it's called darkoi. And when something is not derech ha'olam to make juice from it, so then it becomes a shinui in the melachas shechita. Okay, could be tutefel ... it's ... rabbanan, I didn't say, but I'm saying it's shinui. The yesod of zeis v'anavim, since it's darkoi, yeah. And let's go back to the Mishnah now. Mishum d'omdim l'achilah. It's omdim l'achilah, huh? On its own. Masha'en kein if it's meant for the juice, then the pshat is that I created, maybe it has to do with the yotzer, because ki'ilu it's not ready to be eaten this way. Right? The same yesod that I told you that could be the reason why by zeisim v'anavim is called sechitah, because that's the pshat: I created, because it's not omdim, right? It's not omdim l'achilah; it's omdim l'shtiyah. The sevara of omdim l'achilah, and that's why it's mutar, could be has to do with this vort, that mimeila when I make the juice, I made it into a ochel. That's could be what's the omek of omdim l'achilah, okay? V'leke d'boi l'mashkin could be shinui. I'm telling you.

I just said, yeah, yeah. Exactly what we're saying. Exactly. V'leke d'boilu l'mashkin, so it could be it's sheinah. I'm just saying that these are two more yesodos that could be are standing on its own, or it could be it's in the lomdus of the original yesodos of the Rishonim. So again, we said a yesod that by the juice, if it's עומד for juice, so by making the juice, I created, and I made a גמר פרי, כאילו, by squeezing it, and that's dosh. Or the pshat is that if it's עומד לאכילה, and I went and I squeezed it, so I did a sheinah. That would be called borer. We're going to talk about borer. That's why I'm getting to borer. What I'm doing is I'm setting it up for you that you can learn the sugya yourself. Once we give you all this, do what you want. I don't pasken what you want. I don't really care. I have a mahalach, but I'm just giving you the basics. Okay, so nachamo. Now there's a Meiri. There's a Meiri that says that zeisim and anavim, it's nivla b'toch the zayis and b'toch the anavim, the juice. So it shayich dosh by squeezing it. Mashenkein, l'mashal, shar kol hapeiros, it's not nivla. The juice is not in there. Oh, we're going to get to that. It has to do with zeiah, with ketz mevarech. We're going to get to that. I'm leaving brachos out for a while for a reason. The best example, and I tested this once, when you have a cucumber, okay, and you make a pickle out of it. Is it juicier? I don't know. I don't know. Huh? But that could be the cucumber l'chatchila. I don't know if the mashkin... Huh? It softens. Softens doesn't mean beluah. The way the Meiri learns all the case of sharka al hapeiros mutar, think of it like a cucumber, because even if there's water, but it doesn't mean that the water is nivla. You know a good example of nivla? An orange. The pieces. You see, like, you could... and it'll squirt. You could squeeze those things, whatever they are. You know what else? A rimon. So I never really understood according to the... Huh? The kids do that, right? It's a squirt gun. He knows. You know, he must have... I see he's done it in the past. His mother must have cleaned the walls plenty of times. Huh? I want... I have to. That's what I learned. Okay. There's a lot going on up here. One day you'll see there's a lot of things going on up here. Could be. Could be. Could be by dam. They definitely use this sevara over there. And I'm telling you too that could be that's the pshat in the... Dam mifkad pakid, the Gemara in Kesubos. Exactly. That's what you're talking about, dam mifkad pakid. It's the same sugya, dam mifkad pakid. What are you talking about, by zeh, or what are you talking about by peiros? By the... That's something. But it's the same sugya by kesubos, by dam mifkad pakid. It's the same yesod, that it's in it, and when you squeeze it, it pops out. Okay. The cucumbers, test it on your own. The cucumbers, test on your own and see if because it's soaked, then does the water balua? I'm not sure how that works. You should know, generally, that cucumbers are mostly water. It's something that you have to know also. You know, certain vegetables are like 80 or 90 percent water. But what's the pshat? It's balua? It is water. It's water with a form. It's not exactly balua. Spend time. I don't want to go, because it's l'nega, if you're allowed to make watermelon juice. L'nega, according to the Meiri, if you're allowed to make watermelon juice. Okay. We'll get to it tomorrow. We'll get to it tomorrow. Yes, so maybe you're just doing water. I mean, not being squeezing it out, not being soichet. No, but it's true. I'm saying, but in hilchos dosh... You see the... Okay, so the truth, we'll talk about it. Shmuel Zalman speaks about when you cut a grapefruit and there's water there, if you're allowed to drink it, because since if it's עומד, right, what does it say in halacha? אם עומדין לאכילה, then it's mutar. ואם עומדין למשקין, אסור. When?

And it's Yotzei me'atzmo. He wants to know about the yotzei me'atzman of the grapefruit. Reb Shemshon Zalman's matir because he says it's actually two derabbanans. He says you aren't mechaven, right? And also it's only derabbanan, the whole thing, so he says it's mutar. That's what he says. He wants to say it's a chiluk: im yotzei me'atzman, im eino lachila. Again, I'll look it up again. I'm almost positive that that's his cheshbon. It's two derabbanans. We have the Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa, we have it? Moshe brings it. Okay, you'll look it up. It's a Shmiras Shabbos by the grapefruits, the stuff that comes out. Im yotzei me'atzman, im eino lachila mutar, im eino l'mashkeh asur. Oh, Moshe, you have the Shmiras Shabbos? You have it? No? Okay, forget it. Do it tomorrow. Okay, now, what's it nogea l'maaseh? Like I said, today, Baruch Hashem, we have tons and tons of new fruit. The leka, yeah. Nobody. Nobody. We'll discuss that. We have to discuss. What do we do today with all the different fruit? Today we have stores that excel in fruit juices, that they take any type of—you know, you even have celery juice. You ever tasted it? You got to be a real tzaddik to drink that stuff. Yeah. You know, for a fuah, for cancer, it's one of the mahalachim that they use, the juice. They sell you the juicer, and you have to drink everything juiced, all the vegetables juiced, huh? Because it has the nutrients. When you eat it, it's different. That's a whole mahalach in science. Okay, so what's the halacha l'maaseh? So the truth is, you could come and say, what's the difference? Because even if it's not zeisim v'anavim, but it's tutim v'rimonim, which is asur mid'rabbanan. So what's the nafka mina? What's the chiluk between d'Oraisa d'rabbanan? Let's say a kiwi. So a kiwi is like tutim v'rimonim l'chumra. So you could come and say, what's the difference between d'Oraisa d'rabbanan? Nachal ma'aseh is asur, no? What is sharkol peiros? Ah, so what is sharkol peiros? So you need all the nafka minas. Omdim l'achilah, leked d'ba'u l'mashkin, and what's leked d'ba'u could mean is nobody, which we'll soon talk about. What happens if there's one guy in Australia that does it? So it could be he's a meshugeneh. We'll learn about this. It's in the Mishnah Berurah. I'll show you where it is in the Mishnah Berurah. Huh? That's what I'm saying. No, but I'm saying, let's say you have a kiwi. You can't come and tell me that it's leked d'ba'u l'mashkin. You can't tell me that because there's stores that sell kiwi juice. I mean, that's the shaila. And if not, so then really there's no nafka mina. There is a big nafka mina. I hold there's a very big nafka mina. I'll tell you why. Halachah is that for a choleh, you're allowed to do a derabbanan. You're allowed to be over a derabbanan. A choleh she'ein bo sakanah, siman shin chaf ches, se'if yud-zayin, for a choleh. I once paskened this, and I got it over the head. Oh, did I get it over the head. They tell me that he needs for his health, his nutritionist told him that he needs for his health juice, that the choleh... What's a choleh she'ein bo sakanah? He was weak, he was sick. I wasn't talking about the hockey... I'm saying, I told my guy. No, not a vitamin guy. A vitamin guy is sick, he needs other... People take vitamins when they're sick for sick in the head if they take vitamins. Basically that's not a shkayah. You know that, right? You heard this. The guy who drinks the juice... No, what? No, because he has a different... Okay, so let me tell you, because they're trying to explain that the vitamin doesn't have the nutrient. There's shtikel Torah that the vitamin loses all the nutrient in the processing, so therefore you have to do it in tivi, okay? Then the stama sugya, does it help bichlal? It might be the whole thing is placebo. You know why? Now, if the pshat is you take it and it makes you feel better at the moment, so it helps, then that it works. But tachlis, you won't get cancer because you take vitamin C. ... What do you think? ... I want you to know, you know, can I—I'm allowed to talk here, right? I'm allowed to say what I want, right? Okay. I know a maggid shiur in a yeshiva. I know a maggid shiur in a yeshiva that used to hack a chain about vitamins like you never saw. You have no idea how he used to hack a chain about vitamins. I can't even tell you how. He used to come—anybody wanted a vitamin would...

Come to him because he would sell the vitamins. His wife, his wife almost choked once because he made her take 20 vitamins at a time, okay? I heard this from the son. The son told me his father almost choked on all the vitamins. The person had a heart attack, and two years later he had cancer. And I mentioned Olam Haba. I'm not saying, the mention is Olam Haba. I'm not knocking the person at all. I'm ממש not knocking. We're talking about really chashuv mention. I'm just saying, vitamins, vitamins. Olam Haba. What? Is he okay now? He's bad, okay now. So he's going to be taking the vitamins. He takes now double the vitamins. If not for those 20 pills, he would have been... You got another chashuv. Okay, בקיצור, מעשה. Shin chaf ches, se'if yud zayin. In shin chaf ches, se'if yud zayin, it states clearly that a choleh she'ein bo sakanah, Rabbanan's mutar. So the shaylah would be this: do we call it like zeisim vanavim? Do we call it zeisim vanavim, or do we call it תוספי מזון? Bottom line, bottom line, if a guy needs rimon juice for his health, they say pomegranate juice for the greatest anti-accidents, not the rimon juice, you know that. It's very good for the blood. It's supposed to be very good for the blood, okay? But if, let's say, you have rimon, and the person is a choleh she'ein bo sakanah, since it's only... that's mutar. So the nafka... Read it up. Shin chav ches, yud zayin. Okay, look it up. Now, it's a Rosh, the Tur. Okay, let's go weiter. Ready? Okay. Now let's see. In those days, ... for stuff that you never squeezed, period. The what? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's what I'm asking. The difference is a lot of the vegetables are not squeezed. They're ground and pureed, whatever, pureed. That's still the taste. Pureed. Pureed. You put it—it's not squeezing it. The whole mamash becomes juice. It's not juice. It's puree. When they make apples, what are they doing? Apples, they squeeze. They cook it and they squeeze it. So what do you mean, squeezed? It's more like— That's different. That they take out the juice? Yeah, the garbage is thrown out over there. They cook it and they take the essence. Snapple takes the whole essence of the fruit. I don't know. Okay, so let's go weiter. Mishnah Berurah, okay, Mishnah Berurah, סעיף קטן ז'. Mutar l'soichen. We said all the cases. Now the shaila is, he puts it together. Mishum d'omdim la'achilah, v'leked boilu l'mashkin. Ein shem mashkeh al hayotzei meihem. So I'm clarifying, could be that's what the Mishnah Berurah means, ein shem mashkeh al hayotzei meihem, because— Not because of Tumah and Taharah. Maybe the Mishnah Berurah held one is the reason for the other, since lack of the boilu l'mashkim, okay? So meileh ein shem mashkeh. You could say that it's four separate sevaras. One is you need tenai number one, עומדים לאכילה. Tenai number two, lack of the boilu l'mashkim. The third shittah here is that... Yeah, why don't we do... Okay, let's do it. What's the shittah here? So you do it, yeah, the other hand. That doesn't bother me. Why not? Okay, let's do it with the shittah. I mean, that's the whole thing, to do it with the shittah. Okay. So I want to ta'ina that if you look at the Chazon Ish—we have the Chazon Ish over here—the Chazon Ish is mashma that it's not tolui in the shem mashkeh. Go ahead, go ahead. Siman nun hei, reish se'if katan daled. Yeah, you hear? You hear, Moishe? How do you read this?

Mishnah Berurah. Mishum d'oymdim l'achilah, v'leke d'boilu l'mashkin. So what? In tumah taharah, ein shem mashkeh? Or because of leke d'boilu l'mashkin? Yeah. Go ahead, read. See, Kuntres Daled. ... chayav chatos. Yeah. Nirah. Einan chiyuv Shabbos, einan talui b'din mashkin. Go ahead. I want to tell you this, Mishnah. You don't have to learn it has to do with mashkin, tumah, taharah; לא, it's tumah taharah. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with what? Kol shenehenah, so meileh becomes like a gemar pri. That's how you eat the fruit. Since that's how you eat the fruit, so meileh Hashem mashkeh is tolui in that. This chazonish. Why should it be a gemar pri, mamash by beiser, where the pri is not nigmar? The pri is there. I think that's a good Chinuch k'mein. I think the Acharonim make such a gemar pri by beiser. They make this nafka mina in the sevaros; it has to do with beiser. If it has to do with gemar pri, beiser is not a gemar pri. They make this nafka mina by beiser, if I remember correctly. Okay, so we have this Chazon Ish. You hear the Chazon Ish? It's not תלוי in shem mashkeh, yeah? D'hainu in mashkeh, it's תלוי in mashkeh, kol shenehenah. So like I said, that's the two ways to learn this Mishnah Berurah. Mishum d'oymdim l'achilah, v'leke d'boilu l'mashkin, so meileh it's not neheneh ke'ilu. Meileh ein shem mashkeh al ha-yotzei. This Chazon Ish. As another hakdamah, we could bring into the sugya, which I'm sure the acharonim do, the yeshiva I'm sure they're busy with this, I'm saying when you learn the sugyos, zeh. Right? Which is what you brought up, right? That could be it has to do with, it's not mashke, but it's zeh ba'alma. It's not here in the Mishnah. I'm sorry to say it's not in the Mishnah. Zeh could be better. It could be hold it from sugya. Yeah, yeah, and that's what I want to get at. So could be it's not even a she'eilah. Whatever you hold by hilchos brachos is not really negeiah. So when I said it years ago, they screamed at me. I remember, I said this, the lions came out to attack. And like always, I laughed, because what do you know? You're talking about anyway. And then I found the raya. You ready for chazonish? A gevaldige shtikel Chazon Ish. Yeah? Klar? I don't know. Klar, one person's klar is another person's not klar. You know, what should I tell you? Okay, so then I'm going to show it to you. Ready? We spoke about a gevaldige kedushas Levi this week, with Eliyahu, with the gevaldige shtikel. Okay, go ahead. Look at the Chazon Ish, Hilchos Brachos, siman lamed gimmel. And he says this vort that Rav Moshe just said, that even in hilchos brachos there could be a whole she'eilah. Well, we don't have Hilchos Brachos, it's in Orach Chaim. Siman? Yeah, new siman lamed gimmel. Siman lamed gimmel what? Um, I don't have it here. Siman lamed gimmel. Remember? It's not long at all. It's only like two pages. Go ahead, fine. The Rashba. Bring the Rashba. Rashba, Rashba. Bring the Rashba. Go ahead, read, read. Which means you don't have to stick the sugya of zayin into this. While he's looking up this Chazonish, I want to clarify an interesting shaila: would there be a hetter of la'alter on shechitas peiros? Maybe, yeah. We just learned from the Milchas Chinuch, no, that zoreh is just like borer, so there's a hetter of la'alter. So why isn't dosh just like that? It's the same thing, no? Isn't zoreh, borer, dosh, ... melacha? So if you hold that zoreh is like borer, and there's a hetter of la'alter, efsher יש רפא למעשה, you see? You come here, you get good heterim. I don't know. The whole ... is on melachos ... You want to make juice for later. Who said there's a problem making juice for later? I use this by the cholent. I used to get it over the head. Baruch Hashem, I used to love it. What? What? Good, but it's not borer, it's dosh. So just like there's a svara by la'alter, why not? I don't think—am I saying something wrong? Did the Milchas Chinuch say it by zoreh? Did he come and say it by meraked? Did he come and say that they're all domeh? Didn't we learn the Mishnah Berurah that zoreh is domeh to borer? So why isn't dosh? It's the same thing, no? They're all the same sidur of the pas, no? So hetter of la'alter for zoreh.

Tell me which comes earlier to bair, zaira or dash. Dash is first. So between the dash and the zaira, all of a sudden it turned into chiluk between doimel a bair? Why making faces? Faces don't scare me. Either you have proof, or you don't have proof. Faces. Nobody says it. You know who says it? The Minchas Chinuch says by zaira. This word doesn't say it by zaira either. He says that by zaira, that it's doimel a bair. It's interesting that one word before bair doesn't have that. Right? I'm saying, you can't make the difference. One word before bair is also. Zaira is the same as bair. What do you mean? It's the same thing. Dash, zaira, and bair is barak. It's all the same thing. Same style. You take themselves from there. Is that the yesod of the halacha? You tell me. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. Unless you say it's making the pri, it's a little different, it's not bair. I don't know, it could be. I was clarifying, if you learn that it has to do with the lumps. If you learn that it's yitzor, you're creating a new thing like a drink, so then it has nothing to do with bair. But if it's tikun ochlin, what's all about is tikun ochlin, so then why is it different than bair? So read, go ahead. What? Tes? Let's second. ... let's second. It has to with zeh. So what does it mean? It means something about zeh. ... k'mois. It has to ... k'mois. ... al taimoi bai prei. Something atzmai. It's something atzmai. ... Something like that, and therefore you make a bracha. Taimoi ke-... something. It has to ... something. Maybe it's the thing itself, the chashiv of taam. It is an ayin, no? It is. It is an ayin. It means it's the etzem thing itself. ... He brings the Rashba. Go ahead, look at the Rashba. Okay, we have three more minutes. Come, come. Okay, so he says there's no raya from brachos, there's no raya to Shabbos, because even by brachos it's not the same thing, but by Shabbos you'll still be over shechitah. So the sugya of zeh, you see clearly it's not negeia. Zeh. Mashenkein by Shabbos it's not negeia, he says it clearly. Okay. Right. And it's not negeia to Shabbos, he says it clearly. Right. Okay. So according to what I want to say, I think we could clarify a very interesting shaila. What happens by apple juice?

What happens by apple juice? Apple juice. Okay, so let me, let's just go through the shtickel Mishnah Berurah now, okay? One more word in Mishnah Berurah. I'm speeding for time, so we're not going in order. Here, lachilah, yeah? D'loy neichalei b'ma shezav. I'm sorry, asur l'sochton. Asur l'sochton, af shestamayu omdim lachilah, hoyil u'miktzas bnei adam sochtin me'osek zeisim va'anavim, asru Rabbanan atu zeisim va'anavim. What's called miktzas bnei adam? What's called miktzas bnei adam? Is it one? Is it two? Is it three? I mean, what are the klalim of miktzas bnei adam? So if you take a look, the Rama brings an interesting... Uv'makom shenahagu lizchot eizeh peiros, lishtos meihem machmas tzamei o ta'anug, dina ketutim v'rimonim. So he says, makom shenahagu. What would you call makom shenahagu? And who has that halacha that it's dina ketutim v'rimonim? It doesn't say who. So Mishnah Berurah says that this is a big machlokes. Makom shenahagu, mashma d'b'oso makom asur, u'v'shaar mekomos shari. So it's taka תלוי in makom, but only for that makom. Ach, derech l'holech hamashkeh shel hapeiros mimakom l'makom, for today, just because they make something in Virginia doesn't mean it doesn't reach the stores in New York City, right? Asur b'chol afo. V'kol ze hu l'das haRama, aval l'magen Avraham he'erich b'inyan zeh u'maskanaso d'im nohagu lanu, sheb'eizeh makom nahagu l'sochtoi l'mashkeh. ואפילו הנוהגים בזה הוא רק מקצת בני אדם. מחמת שיש להם פירות הרבה. They have so many apples, they don't know what to do with it, or so many oranges. A lot of times they make oranges only because they don't know what—there's so much, it's an abundance, okay? ולא עיר שלימה, אסור מחמת זה ליקח בחול. So then it's aser b'chol hamoed. וכן כתבו כמה אחרונים. Then he says, אוי כתב מהרבם, דדווקא בעינן שאם היה לכל העולם פירות הרבה כאלו, היה שוחטים אותם. אבל בלאו הכי, אמרינן דבטל דעתם. ועיין בביאור הלכה מה שכתבנו בזה. And then he says, הגסה, our pears, שקורין בארנס בלשון אשכנז, אסור לשחטן, שמדינות אשכנז נוהגין לשחטם. And then he brings a Bach. Then he brings the Bach that it's aser anyway, okay, that any type of shechitah becomes aser. So l'choira, you have to clarify when he says in this din of tutim v'rimonim, and he speaks about מקצת בני אדם שוחטים אותם, is he going with the klalim of this Rama and this Magen Avraham? Does מקצת mean that even if it's a miktzas in a certain place, it's aser for everybody? Is it the same hagdarah? Again, here, take—it's a pashut she'eilah. When it says, אסור באכילה תותים ורימונים, yeah? אסור לשחטם. אף שסתם היו עומדים לאכילה, הויו מקצת בני אדם שוחטים אותם. What's the מקצת בני אדם? He means these klalim of this Rama. Oyd ilma, there's two halachos. There's one halachah of תותים ורימונים, and on top of that there's another halachah of שאר כל פירות. And there's a halachah of miktzas, and the halachos of miktzas that the Magen Avraham and the Rama cholek is not nogea to the dinim of tu tevu'ei remonim. I will chazer this with you tomorrow, but I want to tell you a big yesod. Apples is a big machlokes. The goyen says tu tevu'ei remonim v'lo tapuchim. You see from the Gemara that tu tevu'ei remonim is one thing, tapuchim is different. The Taz says the derech was not to eat tu tevu'ei remonim—I'm sorry, not to squeeze apples; that wasn't the derech. The Taz in se'if katan hei. The Chayei Adam in klal yud-daled, se'if gimmel, and the Mishnah Berurah in Biur Halachah, Eino, says today they squeeze apples, and therefore apples are aser for sechitah. You're not allowed to take an apple and be sochט. So I never understood this goyen. Chavaz Vela, in his place they didn't do it; that's all. That's just about the Taz: yedu it, not do it. I mean, he's medayek it from the Gemara. What is it? The goyen comes and says, you see from the Gemara tu tevu'ei remonim, ah, not apples. What, he's telling the metzius? Whatever is the minhag hamakom, no? There's a Rama. I held he's saying a different word. Tu tevu'ei remonim is midinei deGemara. Tu tevu'ei remonim is midinei deGemara. And then there's something called minhag after tu tevu'ei remonim; it's something else, two different sugyos. This Rama has nothing to do. So the goyen was medayek from the Gemara tu tevu'ei remonim, the din derabbanan.

It's not the by tapuchim, and we'll see the nafkamina tomorrow. No, fakert, I'm saying a different vart. After the din of tutim v'rimonim, v'loi tapuchim, then we can talk about its taluy in the makom, how much the makom, the minhag Avraham, how many people. Then there's something called tutim v'rimonim, which is— There's no way to overrule tutim v'rimonim. It's a din d'Rabbanan. It's a din d'Rabbanan. That's why I learned pshat in the Gra. I'm sorry that it's a little pilpuldik. I'm sorry it's a little pilpuldik. I want to get these yesodos, and then we'll come back word by word, and carve out every word in the Mishnah Berurah. Okay, rabosai, tonight was just hakdamah. Let's start. Right there. So the shaylah is, would it change in the Gra's d'Rabbanan? That's the shaylah. That's what I'm going to get at.