Hilchos Sechitah on Shabbos: Fruit Juices, Squeezing Pickles, and Liquids Absorbed in Food

Transcript

Okay. The last thing we spoke yesterday before we ended was, are you allowed to step on a fruit and be doirech on it, squeezing its juice while walking in the street, when you find it loosely in the street? So I tained that unless it's zeisim—not even zeisim, anavim—which could be darkei b'kach, which today I don't even know if it's darkei b'kach. Let's say it was darkei b'kach 300 years ago, but still that's how they made grapes then. A kidim sits there and he steps on the grapes. Definitely not. It's not darkei b'kach; it's shinui. So you could start clarifying by the de'oraisa maybe there's no din of shinui, which we spoke. All right, so zeisim anavim, but the tutim v'rimonim, which is derabbanan, should be mutar. Kol achad. Who steps on a thing and makes shechitah that way? That's a melachah of shechitah. Someone asked me, I would say it's a chutzpah. I can't even hear it. But they sent my cousin and he went to Reb... It wasn't done that way. Even then it wasn't done, dash. It was done with special shoes. They had special spiked shoes. Unless it's so doimeh to a melachah, I mean, where would you get it? Like, who said it? I mean, who gives you the right to make that up? I don't know. Someone told me that Rav ... has a sefer on Hilchos Shabbos or something, the one that puts out the one on the ... or something. So he has on Hilchos Shabbos there too, he says you're not allowed to. I don't know. My cousin told me that in Eretz Yisrael it's a davar pashut. Everybody knows that the kids are taught not to step on fruits in the street. I don't get it. ... but in Eretz Yisrael it's fun. You know, in Eretz Yisrael by them it's, you know, that's the fun that they have Shabbos afternoons, to walk around stepping all over the, you know. The fruits in the street. All right. Anyways, I can tell you what I hold, that it's mutar. I can't understand why. Maybe by grapes they're aser, maybe zaysim they're aser, but everything else l'choira it's mutar. Okay. What about shechitas shar peiros, which are not, like, meant for, let's say, we said tapuzim, which are meant for shechita. Let's say not meant for shechita. So l'choira it fits into the category of shar kol peiros, right? L'choira. Unless you say that today—it's a sevara that people talk—that today people juice everything, and Snapple, and there's juice stores, and ganze ma'ases, all right? So let's discuss that topic. First of all, I mean, you don't drink a full cup of, what do you call it, strawberries. I mean, you would drink strawberries with water. It's mixed with water usually. A Snapple is—Snapple fully or Snapple is mixed with—it's mixed with water. Water, of course, is filtered water, avada, it's diluted. So let's see. The Mishnah Berurah tells us by lemon, what's the minhag ha'olam? The minhag ha'olam was in siman chaf-beis: ואפילו אם הדרך לשרותן בתוך מים שנושם צוקר, מקום מקום נוהג העולם להקל לעשות זה בשבת. So the shaylah is why. ואפשר משום דלא מיתסר אלא כשדרך לשתות מי סחיטת הפרי גם בלא תערובת משקה אחר. So once it's with תערובת מים, l'choira that's called mashkeh אחר, right? L'choira, unless dafka tea is called mashkeh אחר. I'm mesupak how to learn this Mishnah Berurah here. Does he mean—does he—but the case he's talking about was that they put it in water, I think. והיינו אפילו משקה... okay. Well, you see clearly they put into water. So if they put into water with sugar, so that's called mashkach, right? That's pshat in the Mishnah Berurah, the hemshech. So once it's l'mashkach, we have a heter of a Mishnah Berurah. Usually it's not, except you go into the juice stores. Most of the juice stores, they give you a full cup of the strawberry. But lemon juice is by lemon, that's since you're squeezing it and you're using it together with a mashkeh acher, so you're not just drinking the pri itself. You're adding water. You're adding water. I'm saying lemonade, right? You're adding, you're adding. So l'choira, when you drink strawberries and blueberries, you're not going to drink a whole cup of strawberries. You'll mix it with water usually, okay? Now, my other shaila was, he says another thing. V'achkach, b'inami, but he says that's not even such a good svara, because inami lo mitzer, ela k'shesochtem me'eimov levad, v'achkach me'arvin osoi. Okay? So then it is aser. So the second inami is that if you bring it in with something else, it's still aser.

Aval im haminag lischtoch meimav u’teich mashkeh, ach litboil tam, then it’s shar. The lemon’s only tam. So I don’t know, how do we pasken? Do we pasken the first sevara of the Mishnah Berurah, the second sevara of the Mishnah Berurah? And the truth is, at the end, the Mishnah Berurah doesn’t even like neither of the two sevaros. Mishnah Berurah is going to say that we have to put it into the sugar. So again, so I guess the heter of water is very shvach, because A, it’s only one side of the Mishnah Berurah. The Mishnah Berurah himself says that, i nami, that that’s not the real sevara. Maybe it’s possible that the real sevara is because it’s only for taam, and when you have a strawberry drink or something, it’s the real thing, just you’re adding water. And the third nekudah is that when the Mishnah Berurah, lemaaseh, doesn’t even pasken that altogether; he holds you have to put it into the sugar. So l’choira, when you make a strawberry thing, you would have to put it into the sugar. Okay. But I have a different shailah. Let’s say, forget about mashkeh acha. What about if you take two fruits and you soichet both of them? In other words, you soichet one and you soichet another. So if you soichet them together, so it’s one ma’aseh sechitah. I don’t think you have a sevara of mashkeh acha. But if you soichet one and you soichet a different one, and then together you mix it, would you call that considered the first heter of the Mishnah Berurah, that I took and I was ma’ariv it to mashkeh? I don’t know, it’s not so pashut to me. They both came through sechitah. What are you going to say? The second one? Yeah, see, what does the Mishnah Berurah—Mishnah Berurah says three chidushim. The first chiddush is that the lemon is put into water, so it’s mashkeh acha, okay? The second chiddush of the Mishnah Berurah is it’s only there for taam. The third halachah of the Mishnah Berurah is we don’t pasken like neither of the two reasons, and you should really put it into the sugar. Fine, okay. But I'm clarifying, let's say you want to use that as a heter, all right? You want to use it as a heter. And I also have a shtikel chakirah that lemons are much worse than regular tutim v'rimonim. You know why? Because lemons are really meant for squeezing, and that's it. Nobody eats a lemon. I've got to hold that the sugya that the Mechaber talks lemon is a me'orer chiddush. The Mechaber speaks lemon because lemon is only a darkei l'schita. What else is it? And yet, you still have those heterim. I was telling somebody, you should know the Shtikel Torah, which is mamash ovel hasoicha. I mean, a lemon you can't compare to a strawberry. What else does a person do with a lemon? It's only schita. A person makes lemonade. That's all he does with a lemon, okay? I don't understand something. We're saying that mayim is different than oichel? What we're saying is like this. Yeah, that's one tzad, that mayim is different than oichel, correct, because by oichel it's always mutar, and that's the sugya. The sugya would be oichel and it's mutar. This l'choira is the chakirah. The chakirah is if someone takes tutim, if someone takes tutim, and he mixes the tutim together with a water, he mixes it with a soda, he mixes it with something else, would you compare it to these heterim of the Mishnah Berurah? That the halachah would be that that's called l'toch oichel and not l'toch mashkeh. So it's definitely not dei l'taam. It's there for much more than taam. You're putting it in there because you want to drink the strawberry juice. But at the same time, at the same time, I don't know if I could compare it to lemons, because lemons are a little different. Lemon is mamash darkei l'schita. It's mamash a... What else is lemon? Lemon is only that. Okay. What do I really want? I understand, I understand, but could be it's a little bit worse, lemon. Because lemon is, to me, a big chiddush that it's oimen only l'schita. This could be a little bit better because it's mamash like two different ma'anim, so it's nothing. Yeah, yeah, forget, forget. The sevara is that even though it's asur, right, the sevara is that when it's asur, still it could be mutar. The second sevara maybe it's only by lemon, of tam. The first one, other drinks, perhaps lemon, you would drink the mei peiros on their own. By lemons, it's only used with... Aha, you say a good sevara. You can work it the other way. Once we explain that you can't drink a lemon plain, say a good vort. So maybe the fact that there's a sevara of mashkeh and the Mishnah Berurah knocks it off, that's a good shtickel. That's really what he's saying, I think. You should rewrite that down. That's a good vort. Maybe the pshat is by lemon—I like that—maybe by lemon the Mishnah Berurah doesn't like the sevara of mashkeh. Shapsi gevaldig, shapsi gevaldig. You don't have a good yu... I know, I know, I know this, I know, I know. Let me—I don't prepare that much, so while I talk I cheshben; this is what it is. Okay, it's all good. It's very good. Reb Shapsi, bring both צדדים, that lemon could be worse, but מצד the heter of the Mishnah Berurah it could be better. I'm saying worse, but מצד the heter—more of a צד that the heterim don't work. Okay. L'maaseh, l'maaseh, l'maaseh.

When you have two things that I'm soichit, I take a banana, right? I made the juice from bananas, so kiwis and strawberries, and I put it together. So I don't know if that would be even the heter of mashkeh achar, because you were both soichit. I don't know if the Mishnah Berurah is referring to that. Into water, I could hear as a heter of mashkeh achar. Why is that a heter of water? Because by water, you took something and you didn't use the pri itself that you were soichit; you used it like an essence. But if you take a kiwi that you were soichit and a strawberry, it's just a grad, you mix it together, so you're drinking both schitas. So what's—it won't be the heter of mashkeh achar. It's strange to call that a heter of mashkeh achar. I mean, again, you could be—yeah, I'm just clarifying—could, in other words, this second mashkeh has to be stam a water, a soda, so on and so forth, or it could even be two things that were soichit. Now, there's no shaylah if I put it together, the apple—if I put together the kiwi and the strawberry and I blended it, that's called schita, right? You're not going to come and say it's mutar because it's shtei mashka'os, right? The sevara is not—are you soichit it or not? I just want to—are you maskir binyan? If I took two things and I was soichit— Sorry, I don't understand. If it's a mashkeh achar, so we say the etzem a person's drinking water, not lemon. No, what it is is it doesn't—so you weren't—no, you just put a reiach of lemon juice. You didn't drink lemon juice. It's not the mefarek. Mefarek is where the thing itself is, you know, I squeezed out a drink and I ate that drink. But if it's a taroves, so the pshat is I didn't make a mefarek. So when you have a mixture of kiwi and strawberry, you want the kiwi and you want the strawberry. Right, so therefore I can't say. So therefore it's very shver to say that if you have this heter of the Mishnah Berurah, it's exactly what I'm telling you. But this is like yayin saraf. That's what I'm telling you. I don't believe—I don't believe that the Mishnah Berurah's heter of mashkeh achar is when they were both sochot, when you're soichit both of them. Is everything okay? It's like schnapps. It's very potent, lemon. Even mashke achar, I don't see why it's... Yeah, so that's the svara he's saying. That could be the svara is that by lemon, it's so potent that mashke achar is not mevatel it. That's what he's saying. And that's why it could be there's no svara. The Mishburah doesn't like this svara. That's what he's saying. That was Reb Shabsi's svara. It's a good vort. It's a shaina vort. That could be the heter of mashke achar would be stronger by other things. Beautiful vort. That's a good pshat. That's a posik's way of... Let me tell you, a lot of what I do here is mechanics, you know, how a posik would take a part of psak Mishnah Berurah, halacha l'maaseh, what angles, you know, you have to chew up the halacha. Okay. B'kitzur, this is how I'd like to chew up the halacha of shar peiros, meaning if you come with a kiwi and you want to make a kiwi drink, okay? What about, what about, rabosai, the lemon? So the Mishnah Berurah says that if I take it and I put it into sugar, then I take it, put it into the tea, it would be good. So you have to know the Chazon Ish doesn't hold of this. The Chazon Ish doesn't hold. He holds that even if I put it in afterwards, so then I'm playing around. I really meant to make it into the tea. Unless you eat most of it, and then you can leave over a little bit to put in the tea. That's the shita of the Chazon Ish. Does the Velt machmir as Chazon Ish? I don't know. Stam Yidden, stam is a lot of Bnei Torah. Bnei Brak for sure they're machmir. So the right way to go, according to the Chazon Ish, is just to throw it in. Everything okay? See, the Chazon Ish holds that this Mishnah Berurah is not lahalacha, that you can't go and put it into the sugar and then throw it into the tea, because that's pshat you're putting it into the mashkeh. So he holds that either you eat up most of the sugar... Then you can leave over a little bit of the sugar, lemon back and put it into the tea, because then it's like b'ikur ya'ed. Or what you do is you just put the tea, you put the lemon into the tea. That's it. You just put it in. The only problem is you have a problem with kalia bishul. That's where your problem is, because Chazon Ish l'shitaso, he holds you're not allowed to put a lemon into a kli shelishi. So you anyway have trouble. So in Eretz Yisrael, you really can't live and you can't drink, and you have to live on teinah and avodah, that's all. And Chazon Ish says you put the lemon into the tea. You put the lemon into the sugar and put the sugar into the tea. That's Mishnah Berurah. Because l'maaseh you're putting it into the tea, so what are you, hacking shaych? It's not called mevashel. Who are you fooling? Nun hey, whatever it is, the one on Daf. Unless you eat most of the sugar. Unless you eat most of the sugar, then you can put the rest in. Or, I mean, you put it in straight, but the problem with straight is it's kalia bishul. Unless it's a cold soda, you have a problem. You can put it into a Coke. You can take lemon and put it into Coke if you want. I'm saying a lemon, a piece of lemon, and put it into Coke. All right, now how about vegetable juices, and then we're going to move on. That's it. We're done with juices, okay? Because by the time I'm finished, I have this tremendous urge to go to the—what are these stores called? These Slurpee stores. I don't know what they're called. What are they called? 7-Eleven.

Are you getting no fruit there? What's that? Kids have ice to eat. I mean, you know what the lumbus of 7-Eleven is? They hire Indians? No. Why is it called 7-Eleven? It's open all the time. Why 11? 11 hours. Seven to eleven. Seven to eleven. It's called a 24 hours. It's a nusach of 24 hours. 7-Eleven is a nusach. I have to teach you this stuff. I have to teach you this stuff. Why 7-Eleven? Because in America that's called really, really, really working all the time. That's the difference. In America it's five to nine. But it's supposed to be like—it's five to nine over here. It's supposed to be 7:24. But they cut off some of it for the taxes. Okay, let's go weiter. But, kitza, what about the vegetables, all right? The carrot and the celery. So the carrot, I don't know, do people drink it l'hana'ah? And then you have this, I don't know, carrot is delicious? But there's no juice inside the carrot. Very good. Celery juice. I'll tell you the emes, I'll tell you the emes. They don't squeeze a carrot. They don't squeeze an apple. I would tell you that it's more— They do it for health. Oh, that's what I wanted. Oh, you see, you know how my mind works. My mind works the following: I hold it's l'refuah, and it's in this Rambam, according to this Rambam, and the celery, who drinks? Only a guy who believes that he's healing cancer with it, okay? He thinks he's finding the cure for... For swine flu with it, okay? Let's eat halacha. Shin chaf in the Rama, the first Rama, okay? Like this, we covered the whole seif, mamash the whole—if you paid attention the whole week, you realize we touched on every piece of the Mishnah Berurah, every piece of the Rama, every piece of the Mishnah Berurah. What's the Rama? The Rama says like this: U'bemakom sh'nahagu l'hachmir, lishtos mei machmas tzaar ta'anug, dina k'tutim imayim, aval nahagu l'sachto, l'refuah levad, ein lachush. The ta'anug that it's refuah. The only problem is l'refuah levad. I have a little bit hard time with that word. I don't think they mamash go in there and say, Can I have a prescription for carrot juice? I mean, they enjoy it also, you know what I mean? So, I don't know. I can hear being mutar because of l'refuah, and I can hear the way Rabbeinu would put me in cherem for it because I wasn't medayek in the word levad. All right, it is what it is, okay? So I can hear both sides of the coin. That's the way we want to pasken. That was the end of yesterday's shiur. Now let's start today's shiur. If I feel it's refuah and the doctor says no— Yeah, that's not— Organic specialist says— Yeah, but the health knows. The health knows. The healthy foods are healthy foods. You walk into a health food— They like being healthy. People eat organic. You can say they eat everything, they eat it l'refuah. It's preventative. That could be called refuah. You don't have to have refuah that it comes in a pill, you know what I mean? It's not real. It's people just like being healthy these days. Yeah, but that's what it is, refuah. Why can't I pasken? What do you care if I have an imagination? I'm saying a good svara. That's a good svara. That's refuah. It's anyway derabbanan. It's anyway derabbanan. Tutim v'remonim—nah, now you're dragging me into a big sugya. You're allowed to eat on Shabbos. I think on them you're allowed to eat on Shabbos. Some people like being healthy. Let's go weiter. A posek has to talk like I talk. A yeshiva man should talk like he talks. Okay, let's go weiter. That's the... I only meant it as a compliment. From my mouth, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I can make mistakes, but... ...you're talking like a posek. Oh, please don't tell me that. Oh, yeshiva... Okay. Now, rabosai, we're done with fruits and vegetables and peiros and shechitos. Enough. Now I want to discuss another very interesting halacha in shechita, very important halacha. Those are my kids. I have a special chush to hear when they make trouble. It's a radar. Mati, tell them to get out of the car. Just tell them to... They're out of it. They keep going in and out. Yeah, so tell them to stay away. They took the car away. Huh? They took it away. I got the keys. They're not that good. Okay, rabosai, come. Sif zayin, okay? Now why do I say sif zayin? Because the truth is, if you paid attention all week, we did beis, we did gimel, we did daled.

We did hei, we did all this. We did vav, and we didn't do zayin. Lizchot kvashim. What are kvashim? Now, please don't read it kvasim, like a keves echad taseh baboker, but פירש פירוש ומיני ירקות המונחים בחומץ ובמלח. Okay, it's closed now? That was lazy. You were quicker than me on that one. פירש פירוש ומיני ירקות המונחים בחומץ ובמלח כדי שלא ירקבו. Now, of course, כדי שלא ירקבו is in the olden days, but today it means pickles also. It doesn't really make a difference. It's just a case. So if something which is soaked, that's called kvashim. Shelakos is cooked, hot water. When you put hot water on something, it's called shelakos. So you want to be soichet. So im legufam, and this is one of the heterim of shechitah. When it's done legufo, it's done for the fruit or the vegetable itself, meaning you want to fix the vegetable. It's not good when it has so much salt and so much water or chometz or whatever the case may be. Sometimes pickles are so sharp, so you have to dilute it. So you want to squeeze out the water. So then it's mutar. That's not called sechitah, she'ein tzarich l'mayim. You don't really need the water that you're squeezing. Ve'eino sochet ela l'saknem l'achilah. You're only trying to fix the thing. Afilu sochet l'soch kairah, therefore it would be mutar even to put it into a pot, right? Normally, shechitah has to be l'toch ochel to be mutar. So here it would be mutar even l'toch kairah. Is that where you also want it, or you couldn't care less? We're going to get to that in two minutes. Give me two minutes. Aval, right, she'ein ba ochel mutar. Ve'im tzarich l'meimei, but if you do want the water, mutar lizchot only l'toch kedeirah, because then it becomes l'toch ochel. Sheyesh ba ochel. Aval im ein ba ochel, asur. U'lerach, that's that rach that the Mishnah Berurah brings down. U'lerach, kol shehu tzarich l'meimav chayav chatos, afilu sochet l'kedeirah sheyesh ba ochel. Now it's interesting, how come the Shulchan Aruch found to bring the rach here? We learned this rach yesterday, right? That's the rach that the Mishnah Berurah brings down, right, that if you put it into food, it could be it's a problem by zeisim va'anavim, right? And therefore the teshuvas haRosh says to be machmir tovel a brachah to pasken like this rach. Remember such a thing? That's this rach. That's this rach. It's interesting that he brings the rach, like it's out of context, and the Mishnah Berurah says that we pasken like this rach. Why did he quote the Shulchan Aruch? He brings this rach. Anyways, I don't want to go back into that rach. Kol shetzarich l'meim chayav chatzas, v'ilu tzarich l'geder sheba'ochel, u'ledvar hasoiched eshkol l'geder nami asur. You see, the Ramo says, therefore what we learned before is taka asur. So it's a little bit, like I said, back and forth. It's a little bit out of context. All right, not again. Okay, so we have now a new klal. I know, but I don't want to go back into this l'geder. It's not necessary. The main nekudah is, from here we learn that whenever it's shechitah l'gufoi, it's mutar. Okay. Rabosai, let's take off, imazaked, our gloves and analyze the sugya properly. Is the pshat the heter because he's just fixing the food? That's all it is? Or it's the fact that he doesn't need the water, and dash means that you need it? Maybe it's both of them together. The Shulchan Aruch brings actually both, if you read it. He says clearly here, im l'gufan, so then it's l'gufoi. She'ein tzarich l'mayim, that's the second point. So maybe you need both rules. Maybe you need both rules. Okay, so we just started zayin. We did a little bit imazaked patch-up work from yesterday, whatever shein zachin. Maybe a different time, or afterwards I'll tell you what we said, because we learned very nice. But now we're starting zayin. It means we did, okay. Zayin is the heter of l'gufoi, which means that whenever you take a fruit or a vegetable and you're squeezing it l'gufoi, it becomes mutar because you don't care about the mayim. So is the heter that it's legufei? What does that mean, legufei? Legufei means you're just trying to fix the fruit. The fruit cannot be eaten the way it is. It's too much juice, there's too much water, it's too much salt. It's just fixing it. So you don't care about what's coming out. Or is the heter that you don't care about what's coming out? Forget about that you're fixing the fruit. Or is the heter both together, that you need both rules: A, that it's legufei, and B, that you don't need the water. Okay? I know, we're gonna get to that. Please, we're gonna get to that, Mr. Bura. I'm gonna dance around that Mishnah Berurah because it's beautiful. Let me tell you, Mishnah Berurah was a navi. You don't understand. Every word is medukdak. You know, learn the Shulchan Aruch, learn the Rama, I'm seeing the Taz and the Magen Avraham, and you see the Mishnah Berurah was kolel everything in his few little words.

There's gainus, there's gainus everywhere in the Mishnah Berurah. No, no, no, no. He means to say it's not shechitah. Shechitah is always that you want the thing that's coming out. You don't want to fix the thing that was. He has a very good point. Why does it say l'kayler? It should say l'ibud. So you know who makes this Mishnah? Mishnah Berurah. That's the beauty of the Mishnah Berurah, okay? So just let me get the yesodos first, and then you'll see the shiur again, b'ezras Hashem, like yesterday. It's going to flow beautiful, b'ezras Hashem. So again, is the heter l'kufa? Is the heter because the mashkin is eino tzarich, you don't need it? The Shulchan Aruch brings both, okay? Maybe it's both together, okay? What would be the nafka mina l'halacha? If let's say you all copped it yourselves, if let's say his kavanah is to be mesaken, but he doesn't throw it away, he keeps it. He keeps the drink. So you have the kavanah l'saken, but you can't come and tell me eino tzarich, that he doesn't need the thing. Maybe eino tzarich would mean that he has to get rid of it. He's doing it to get the water out and throw it out, okay? Let me give you a little background about this. The lashon of the Ramban in Kesubos daf hei is that by shechitah, k'dei l'saken is mutar, because ein ze mefarek, shehamashkim holchim l'ibud. He says it clearly, that the mashkim holchim l'ibud. It's mamash pshat often in Ramban, okay? That's right. That's where it comes from. This is it, okay? Shehamashkim holchim l'ibud. At the end of the shiur I'll tell you, I had a war. I get into wars with people only about halachos. But you see, I'm smart enough because I give the other guy that he's good, he's gevaldik, so he doesn't really fight. It doesn't last long, the fight. But I have major wars. I had a big war with the rav of my shul about this. Mamash. Yeah, no, this was bad. This was bad. I'll tell you what happened. Just first let's get the mekoros, all right? Tosfos in Kesubos says, כיון שאין צריך למשכן. He doesn't say צריך לאיבוד. He says you don't need the mashkin, it's אוכל דפרסו, which means you didn't separate anything. You just—it's the food again. You didn't change. You don't care about the mashkin, so it's אוכל דפרס. That's a famous lashon in all of Hilchos Shabbos. It's in beitzah, אוכל... Okay, I'm sorry. Maybe the yeshiva... like led or something. Ufrasa. Okay, it means it's separate. Rashi says the lashon is mufrad, the lashon of Rashi. אוכל המופרד. Bottom Rashi there in Beitzah. What is it, gimmel-daled over there, אוכל דפרס? It's the bottom Rashi. Beitzah, right, right, אוכל מופרד. Rashi explains the word mufrad. Okay. Now, the Chazon Ish says that the heter has nothing to do with the mashkin. It has to do with, in siman nun hei, se'if katan hei, because the food itself is the kavanah that you're trying to fix. Mefarek is not when you're trying to fix the food. Mefarek is when you're trying to create new food. So the heter is because שאין דוש אלא במתכוון לצורך הנסחט, ולא לצורך the thing that you're being sochet. Okay? So this is a three-way machlokes. Now, if you pay close attention, you'd realize that this is really the shaylah I was asking. Is the issue because it's heter l'ibud, that you don't care about the mashkin? Is the pshat is because you tzarich l'gufoi, so then it's not about the davar hanischat but the davar that you're being sochet, right? Or the pshat is that you didn't do anything. It's אוכל דפרס. Ufrasa—how do you call it? How do you say it? I don't know. Ufrasa. Okay, I always said, I don't know. You know, it's called girsa d'yanקותא. I learned this when I was a little boy. Literally, I was in fifth grade when I learned beitzah—sixth grade. I learned beitzah. Rav Pam's son was my rebbe, Aaron Pam. He's in Toronto now. Brooklyn, Aaron's in Brooklyn. He was a rebbi in Darchei Torah. He's a rebbi in Far Rockaway. Oh, he used to smack. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where he got it from, but Ehrlich, Fraskin. We were terrified in the class. No one made a peep, oh yeah. But he taught, he was a real rebbi. He was serious. He was serious business. I don't know where he came from, but, like, you know, sometimes you wonder where did he see it? Anyways, we look—oh, that's right, that's right, right, right. Chashuv mensch, chashuv mensch. B'kitzur, so he—not that he taught me beis, I'm just saying, so that's where I know it from. So maybe as a kid I thought, okay. Anyways, b'kitzur, so the Chazon Ish siman hei, se'if katan hei says that the heter is that it's not dash. Dash is always that you want the thing that's coming out, not the thing that was. If you paid close attention, you'd notice that this really the shaila is: is it the legufa? Is it that the mashkeh is not necessary? Nidaktzach.

That of course the nafkamina is obvious, that in case the mashkeh is not, is or isn't hoilech l'ibud, would be the nafkamina. If it's hoilech l'ibud, so according to the svara of the Ramban, yeah, it's hoilech l'ibud, it's gevaldik. But if it's not hoilech l'ibud, then you have to come on to the svara that you only cared about the lagufoi, the fruit itself, but not the thing that was nischat. So it's talui l'maaseh. Okay. Before we continue with seeing l'maaseh this halacha, I want to learn up the Mishnah Berurah a little bit, okay? So let's go to the svara of the Mishnah Berurah of lagufoi, yeah? Notice the case. What's the story here? What are we talking about? Kvashim, kvashim and shlakos, right? Kvashim and shlakos. Okay, here we go. So I want to know, what about all fruits with their pri? Now let's say you have an orange that is just too much juice. It's like, it's a mess to eat it. It's a mess to eat it. So you want to squeeze it, but your kavanah is taka the lagufoi. What are you showing me? He quotes the Ramban as one of his rishonim. No, but he says that the Tosafos is not like the Ramban, if I remember correctly. That's what I remember. I remember that. Yeah, right, Ramban, no. Right, no. Right over there, he already says he's going with the Ramban. No, he says that Tosafos is not the Ramban, he says. Right, that brings a chiddush. So he mixes all the time together, and then he says the taam is not that. He says it clearly at the end. Oh. He says that fakert, he holds that that's not the cheshbon, and then he says the cheshbon is because it's not the... Right. Yeah, this is Ramban. Okay, you'll discern it later. Okay, this is Ramban. Okay. Now, b'kitzur, rabosai, you hear? So what happens if you want to take the fruit itself, squeeze it, l'gufo? I mean, the case is a case where it's not the fruit itself. It's not the vegetable itself. It's that the vegetable took in water from somewhere else. So what about if you want to do by the fruit itself? Is that also a heter to squeeze l'gufo? That's a nice ha'arah. And I'll show you where I found klar this really, reid, acharonim. For some reason it gets lost. I don't know why. It's not something that people talk about, yeah? Again, is the story of kvashim and shlakos because the water that you're squeezing is not the fruit itself. It took in water from somewhere else, like I would call a sponge. I mean, what is this? What's chita? Chita is when I take a sponge and I squeeze the water that it absorbed, no? So maybe the story here is also, when it takes in water, then you have a svara of l'gufo. But what happens if it's the fruit itself, and for you it's l'gufo? For you, you feel you can't eat that with so much water in it, okay? It's too sharp, the lemon. You can eat the piece of the lemon without all the juice in it. Would you call that also the heter of l'gufo? Okay. Let's see the Mishnah Berurah, סעיף קטן חב דלד at the end. That's one ha'arah. A second ha'arah. Mishnah Berurah says, U'v'zeisim—what? Yeah, shlakes, hainu yerek sheyotzei shel kodem haShabbos. What's wrong? It's just shlakes. He's just explaining what shlakes is. He's not saying anything. He's just explaining what shlakes is, because the Ramah explains what kvashim is. So the Mishnah Berurah explains what shlakes is. You want to say afterwards it could be davka that way; anyway it's that way, okay. So you don't need Mishnah Berurah for that, okay. Chav daled: U'v'zeisim v'anavim asur b'chol gavni, mishum d'רוב עולם צריך לאכולם מהם. Okay? So l'gufa is not a heter by zeisim v'anavim. That's what it says here. Why not? Why not? Oh. So I was thinking maybe the pshat is that the heter is not by d'Oraisa. L'choira, if the svara is a good—what's the case? The case is very pashut. Shlakes, kvashim is mutar. What? Regular zeisim v'anavim—you take zeisim v'anavim, you do it l'gufa. L'gufa. You can't eat—there's too much oil, there's too much going on in the zayis. The anavim is too much for you, whatever the reasons are.

But you see that by klavas u'shlak, because you have a sevara like that. That's another thing, because I put water to keep it fresh. That's not what it says. It says... What about by zeisim v'anavim? That's my shaylah. That's my next... That's my next shaylah. Just because it's de'oraisa? No, it's asur because it's not getting water from elsewhere. That's my chakirah. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Is the pshat that by zeisim v'anavim he meant also that it took in water from somewhere else? L'choira, the story of zeisim v'anavim is the thing itself, no? I have doubt over that this is like sheitas Tosafos. It's like Tosafos... That what? ... And please, ... by any water. No, but I'm asking, is the story—maybe, I don't know if you... could be you're saying good, I just don't get—I'm not happy. Zeisim v'anavim is the story, u'v'zeisim v'anavim asur b'chol gavni. What, you mean you taka went and you soaked it? You injected it? You can't—zeisim is closed, you can't... I'm saying, so what happened? It's like an... I don't think it absorbs. It's closed. What, you put water in it and it absorbs? It's a closed thing. I don't really understand the story. So that's what I was clarifying. If the taich is that kvashim is dafka, so then the pshat is that zeisim v'anavim has to be maybe the same case. I'm not even sure, huh? Unless zeisim v'anavim is the thing itself. So you see clearly that by the thing itself, it's taka becomes asur. Yeah? Meilachaira, the zeisim v'anavim. But either way, the shaylah is because of the de'oraisa, meaning maybe the pshat is... Since it's all, it's de'oraisa, right? Or maybe even by derabbanan. V'yesh layimi de'oraisa u'midrabbanan. Meaning, is this halacha of de'oraisa that it doesn't work, or this halacha midrabbanan? Nafkaminas are very stark, right? All the nafkaminas of kelach yad that we learned. Does anybody see what I'm saying? Maybe I'm not explaining myself. The lashon of the Magen Avraham over here is that the reason why zeh v'nah is different is because there's a shem mashkeh alav mikodem. No. That what? That what? Other peiros, even l'meimeh, why? There ain't shem mashkeh alav. Mashenkin hacha, by zaysim v'anavim, d'hoya shem mashkeh alav mikodem. And therefore? That's why it's aser. Because the whole yesod of— Ah, the— what's this Magen Avraham? Okay, okay. I'm going to get back to this later, because I see in my mind, knowing what I know over here, this fits perfectly. Okay, so let's follow through, okay? It's a little complicated in the beginning; it gets easier. So again, kvashim and shlakos is because it took in outside water, or it's kvashim and shlakos even if it's not outside water; it's really not— it's just cases of sharp peirush which are mutar. Maybe that's all it is. The hemshech of the Mishnah Berurah, right? No, sharp— I don't mean sharp; I mean like, to the Rishonim, right, with the Rabbanans. Okay. So when he speaks about zeisim and anavim, so l'choira the case is not that he soaked them in water, zeisim and anavim; it doesn't sound right, unless maybe, yeah. Okay. I'll show you why I'm saying this. Let's look at the Mishnah Berurah, seif katan chaf hei now. V'hu hadin, d'muter l'chatchilah lischot lokshin, and that means the spaghetti, right? Not spaghetti, give me a better word for lokshin. Noodles, noodles, okay? Mishum d'nivla bahem, from the fact, im hu oseh mishum she'ein yachol l'ochlan, mishum she'hen harbeh, because it's too, too fatty. Kach kasav b'drisha. That's what the Drisha writes. U'vchai adam meikel mita'am acher. Chayei Adam is meikel, d'shumin shemafrishei havei gam kein ochel, because the shuman is actually food. V'havi k'mafrish ochel mi'ochel. So this is the machlokes. The Drisha holds that mishum she'ein yachol l'ochlan, mishum she'hu harbeh. One second. Ha'nivla ba'im hu oseh mishum she'ein yachol l'ochlan mishum she'hu harbeh. Shem emes, it's to fix it. That's the lagufei, that's the lagufei. While the Chayei Adam's heter is because it's k'mafrish ochel mi'ochel. So it comes out a major chiddush. According to the Chayei Adam, right, what happens if it's not—if he taka wants the shuman? It should still be mutar. According to the Drisha, I mean, pashut cheshbon, according to the Drisha the whole svara is because it's lagufei. So what happens if I taka want the fat? I want to drink it. I'm going to take the—

Because I can't. I don't want it, first of all, maybe because I want it. What? I want it. According to the Chayadam, maybe I even want it. What do you care? If it's kefufa, if it's considered oichel mi'oichel, even if I want it. I squeeze it out of the lochshen because I want it. What's the Chayadam saying? It's considered ufra. Pashut not. According to the drisha, the story is I'm just trying to fix the, the, the lochshen. So according to him, it has to be with the klal that I don't want the mashkeh. But according to the Chayadam, the cheshbon is that either way it's mutar, because shemen is mutar. Now why is it different than anything else? Why can't you always say that? Every time I take a juice out of something, let's just say I want the fruits, it's food. Because it's— and what would you call for oil? He calls it oichel. Okay, so I'll tell you. No, not 100%. I went to look it up, because I didn't hear it 100%. Pashut you learn that oil is not liquid. I'm saying oil is zeisim. Zeisim is called a mashkeh. You hear my kasha? But this is fat. So you're squeezing fat out of the lochshen? What are you squeezing exactly? Gravy, I guess. You say gravy. Gravy is oil. What is it? I went to look it up. I went to look it up. You want to look up the Chayadam? You see the Chayadam is not talking about this case. Go take out the Chayadam. Give me my fan, my fan, and the Chayadam. It's right over there. The white one. Chayadam is talking about fat from meat. Cream. It's talking about fat from meat. Maybe, maybe you've seen not this way, but maybe he was mentioning this, that when you squeeze a— A grape or whatever it is, you're squeezing its own stuff. As opposed to when things happen... Klal Yud-Zayin, se'if vav, what? I'm sorry. When you squeeze a grape or an olive, so you're squeezing out its own juice. Yeah. As opposed to something like got into it on its own, not... That's what we're saying. Well, then that's the whole shi'ur tonight. The whole shi'ur tonight is to ask: is kvashim about that you're squeezing out outside drink? That's what we're asking. Or the pshat is it's even when I'm squeezing its own juice. By the lashon, you're not squeezing its own juice. Avada not. Mashenkin by basar and fat, you're squeezing its own juice. Se'if vav, Klal Yud-Zayin, se'if vav. Klal Yud-Zayin is... He has his own thing on Shabbos, Klal Yud-Zayin. Shabbos begins... Oh, you don't have it? Of course it's there, it's there. By the... what are you squeezing out, its own stuff? Se'if vav. You have it? By the pickle things, what are you squeezing out, its own stuff or else? Try... maybe. Try... the other... a little bit of its own stuff. Klal Yud-Zayin. No, it is. It's Klal Yud-Zayin, se'if vav. This is butter. Here it is. Here is the bairer one. Here it is. Ashul, chatiches, a goizen, ... u'lechem, ... Here it is. Here it is. Okay, I'm sorry, it's klal yud-daled. V'chein minei tigun.

Okay, I found it. I said, I wrote you—my notes are off. I wrote you zayin; it's yud daled. Yud daled vav, it is vav. V'chein minei tigun, shenivla boi shumin harbeh, mutar l'sachto, d'eina doimeh l'simen hei. D'sham nivla boi mashkin, ma she'ein kein shumin d'mikaru uchla v'hashta oichel. Aval basar shenivla boi mashkin lo yiskach l'tzorech mashkin. Basar shenivla boi mashkin, lo yiskach l'tzorech mashkin. So what's the story? Do you not want—do you want? Here. V'chein minei tigun, shenivla boi shumin harbeh, mutar l'sachto, d'eina doimeh l'simen hei. D'sham nivla boi mashkin, because in hei it's called nivla boi mashkin, which means it came from the outside. Ma she'ein kein shumin d'mikaru uchla v'hashta oichel. That's not what he means. That's what he means. It's a different story over there. D'sham nivla boi—the mashkin went in there. Ma she'ein kein here, it's uchla v'uchla. Shemen is called oichel. That's what it is. It's called oichel. Aval basar shenivla boi mashkin—but by basar shenivla boi mashkin, because the mashkin is not uchla together with the basar, then it would have to be aser. He's saying shumin of a piece of meat? That's what he's saying. That's what I think he means. That's what I think he means. Tigun is oil. What usually makes— Yeah, yeah, yeah, read it. What do you want from me? They're not like that, obviously. I don't understand. Where's the lashon? I don't know the sevara, sorry. Again, I'm not—I'm sorry, Mr. Bura, can I learn the Chayadim? Is it okay? I'm just learning the Chayadim. That means I just showed you the Chayadim is not exactly what it says here. It's not what it's talking about. Why is that? That's the case of the Mishnah Berurah. What? That's the case of what the Mishnah Berurah is talking about. The case of the Mishnah Berurah, he talks about locshin, and the Chayadim, he talks about ufra, talking about from the basar itself. Minutigun. He says, minutigun shenivla boi shuman. That's the case of the Mishnah Berurah. Where does the shuman come from in the basar? What happened? Mishnah Berurah is talking about locshin, this gravy that's nivla in it. Shuman gravy, I like to call it gravy, okay? You want to call it shuman, I call it gravy. And I want to call it gravy. I haven't titled it to call it gravy. That's impossible. Put it in the fridge, it turns into shuman. That's impossible. Minutigun. Don't say pasul. Minutigun. Okay, so what changed? Then he brings the Chayadim. The Chayadim says that it has to do with oichel and oichel. If you listen carefully to the Chayadim, he's maskim that if it's a mashkin that's nivla there, it's taka asur. It has to be that it was oichel, not mashkin, but oichel, which means the fat of the meat with meat is called oichel v'oichel. And what do we think originally? It doesn't have to be dafka with the meat. Minutigun. Yeah, it is. It is. The point is, it's always oichel. The point is— The point is that when a person has liquids that go into food, that would be asur. What means mashkeh? The mashkeh could be oichel also. The mashkeh could be oichel also. What do you mean? What is not oichel? What do you mean? He's not discussing because one is a food and the other one is a liquid. That's not the point. It's saying as a din mashkeh as opposed to a din oichel. Oichel as a din oichel. V'chein minei tigun, shenivla boi shuman harbeh, mutar l'sochto. Because it's not a mashkeh. Why is it mutar l'sochto? Because it's food, right? Which means it's not like water, because by kvashim it's aser. This is mutar. V'sham nivla boi mashkeh, and this is not called mashkeh. Ma she'ein kein shuman. Now what does this shuman mean? The shuman that was nivla into this min. D'mikara ochla v'hashta oichel. So the svara is that shuman is called an oichel, okay? Aval basar shenivla boi mashkin, lo yischat l'tzorech mashkeh. What does the Mishnah Berurah say the reason is? U'v'chai adam meikel...

So I'm asking, according to the Mishnah Berurah, do you need that you should want that shum? Do you need that? Does it have to be that you want it? Yeah. Yeah. Even if you want it, it's enough. Now, what would be if shuman would go into lach? Lach? Everybody says that. The chay adam was talking about basar. Mimei tigu. Mimei tigu. ... shenivla boi shuman ... mutar l'sachto. Okay? What's the tigu? What's the story of tigu? Any tigu. Any. Any. Lachs, strawberries. The question is, what's the status of shuman? What's not, what is? We'll continue tomorrow. I mean, between basar and lach, I mean, they're both cooked, have to be cooked in some type of oil or water. How could oil be considered ochel? But I'm asking you, by the zeisim, what's the halacha? That's the classic case. I took oil right out of a zayis. What do you call that, ochel v'ochel? That's the classic. So what's the difference? This is shuman from a... So you're just contradicting yourself. No meat. No meat. You're just contradicting yourself. You don't understand, you're just contradicting. And I fried a piece of chicken with the fat for the meat. So I'm asking you, if oil is not called... it's not called mashkeh. It is. Oil from an olive is called mashkeh. Aha, oil from an olive is not... Oil from a chicken is called nat. It's a difference. Once cooked. You see a difference between oil and oil. Once mashed. Why? What's the kasha? Buy food. Buy the food, except for... that's why. Why did you cook? It's only liquid because it was cooked. Oil from an olive is, b'etzem, a mashkeh. It doesn't have to be cooked to become a mashkeh; it's a mashkeh. A piece of fat that you cook and becomes liquid, that'll make it into a mashkeh. Once you cook... Shuman is never drunk as a drink. No one drinks shuman. Shuman is always eaten. It's gravy, but it always goes together with food. It's food. Butter is food. Not butter to the food. Not butter. Olive oil cannot be drunk by itself. It is not used as a drink; it's used as a food. Yeah. Olive oil is the same thing. Yeah, olive oil. I know, but in... No, no, technically it's a mashkeh. Right? So we give it... Fine, but separate rule that if you're doing it for... It is what it is. No, I'm not saying. The answer is that only answer is that.