Hilchos Sechitah: Squeezing Soaked Foods, Tea Bags, and Pumping on Shabbos

Transcript

Adding from the outside to the lashon. Ma she'ein kein by the zeisim, I wasn't 100% sure what the place of zeisim is, because by zeisim is mashma, l'choira, the zeisim themselves, right? And that's what he says, the darka, right? Because Mishnah Berurah even says that it's darka. So obviously he's not talking about the darka of putting water into it. You know anybody who soaks grapes in water, unless that's how they made wine. I'm not klar. I'm not klar in the case of the zeisim, because I'll tell you why. I hold, I hold that it's very shayach that on one hand, if it's not taking out the water, it could be better. If it's not taking out the water that was, it could be better, right? And because when you take out the water that is, it's regular sechita. I mean, is it ochel or...? I'm saying by taking out the water—I'm sorry, it's not better, excuse me. I'm saying on one hand, two things. On one hand, it's not the regular sechita, because all you're doing is to take out, you know, to fix it. On the other hand, and that's what Mishnah Berurah means, but by zeisim, when you just take out the oil, I mean, that's called sechita. If you take out water that it absorbed, so then I can hear a sevara that that's called megufei, to take it out because it's soaked and it soaked too much and you're taking it out. So that's called megufei. But if a guy goes and presses oranges, what do you say, it's megufei? I mean, that's—if a guy presses anavim, that's called sechita. I mean, where's the megufei? Why? Because you rather don't want so much water in there; you want it less. That's how I learn one way, the Mishnah Berurah. Or you can learn another way, the Mishnah Berurah, that legufei is a better heter when it's just to take out it. Ma she'ein kein by taking out the water from outside, it's worse, because that's a case of real shechitah. What is shechitah? Shechitah is an absorbed water, and you want to get rid of the water that it absorbed. I'm saying two sides of the coin. Opposites. I'm telling you, two opposites. That's—my chakirah is always that. My chakirah is, do I look at which way does it go worse? Which way does it go worse? So on one hand I can come and say that the fact that it's water that I'm pressing from, that's better. And that's what the Mishnah Berurah means. Zeisim, you can't have that heter, because you're just squeezing zeisim. What are you doing? Now, I'm saying this because I'm not sure if the zeisim is because it's darko, which is the lashon of the Mishnah Berurah, or zeisim because it's de'oraisa. And that was the shiur yesterday. That's what I ended with yesterday by chaliva and the parek. Again, there's two ways I can learn this Mishnah Berurah. One is that it's about koveish kvashim. Koveish kvashim is that the water was absorbed and it doesn't belong there. So when I squeeze it, maybe that's on one hand better because I can hit the legufei of it; it just took in too much water. Ma she'ein kein if I squeeze a thing itself, what are you going to say? What's legufei? I'm squeezing. That's regular shechitah, and that maybe is what the Mishnah Berurah means by zeisim. A dilma, koveish kvashim is worse—is better. Could be koveish kvashim is better. Right? Because it's not the real shechita. You could hear more l'guf. I'm saying, on one hand you could hear more the l'gufei mashein kein by the regular. On one hand you could say it's much worse, because that's what shechita is. I mean, shechita is I'm being shochet what I don't need. Or your shechita is what you want. Huh? You don't have the ochel daferes. That's what I want with this chai adam yesterday. A kovesh kvasim might be worse because you don't have ochel daferes, and that's how I learned that Chai Adam. But the Chai Adam is saying is, when it's in itself, then you have ochel daferes. You see that he says it. He says it by zeisim; he says it. That was that Chai Adam that we learned. And that's why I want to say the fat of the chicken is not shayach to shechita. Chai Adam asks it by mashkeh, I understand, but by shemen, he says it's svara of ochel daferes. The way we understood was that shemen is an oichel; it comes from the... I understand, but luy itzur, you made shechita. No, what I mean to say is like this: luy itzur, you took something and it's oichel from oichel. Then I hear. But by the kvasim, it's not oichel. What do you do with the chayim? You're not drinking it. What are you going to do with it? It's a different way of understanding the case of kovesh.

Koive she never have the svara vuchl daferes. Mashenkin when you squeeze a food, let's say the fat from the meat, that's ochl daferes. That's all I wanted yesterday. I wanted yesterday that you should hear. On one hand, the case is kvisha. Kvisha on one hand could be better. Mashenkin zeisim is worse, not because it's deoraisa. This is ... What are you talking about? Or the other way, you can work it the other way around. Fakert, kvisha is worse. Kvisha is worse. Why is kvisha worse? Because you don't have the svara vuchl daferes. Mashenkin by other fruits, you do have a ... By zeisim you don't have vuchl daferes, but there's what the Rishonim tell us. Oh, that's not for me. This is exactly what I want. Could I say two tevuahim is better than kvisha? Because by two tevuahim I don't have the cheshbon of kvisha, that it's like real sechitah, while on the other hand it could be worse. It sounds like there's a different angle here. I know the angle, because mashma darka and not darka. Yeah. ... the fact that this yachid wants, you know, is doing it lgufo. Yeah, that's how you learn it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. One thing for sure, however, you know what it is? I never care how you lmaaseh want to learn it. My job is to point out that there's a ... something's going on in that Mishnah Berurah. There's something going on in that Mishnah Berurah which is not just the Rabbanan deoraisa. That's all I want. It's not about only derabbanan de'oraisa. It's more. There's something else going on there where zeisim, unless the case of zeisim is also with water. I don't know. If the case of zeisim is with water, I don't know what he means exactly. So then what does the darkei of shechitah have to do with anything? If he means that you soaked it in water and then it's darkei, I don't know. I mean, another darkei. Again, but I'm saying is by the case of anovim it's with water, you soaked it? No. What's the difference whether it's water from somewhere else or water from here? I mean, the truth is, the way I'm saying, the way I understood the ... then only the way the derech ... does, which is not water from somewhere else, right? Okay, okay. Water from somewhere else can. I'm asking. But according to ... it's deraisa or rabbanan? I'm asking. Okay, that's all. What I want is from this Mishnah Berurah that there's a chiluk between kvisha of yerakos and zeisim. And if you understand well that chiluk, big nafka minas halacha. Okay? So you want to say it over? Say it over, say it over. Fine, good. ... mechalek between ... and squeezing out salad that you soaked in water. So the shaila is—well, what is the chiluk? He doesn't say. Right? Or is the chiluk because this is kvisha from the outside, mashenkin this is from the inside? Or because this is darkei and not darkei, big nafka minas halacha, and you'll soon see what I want. You'll soon see. Okay. Now, with this, let's go a little further, okay? Does the mashkeh have to go l'ibud? So let's see the Mishnah Berurah, seif katan chavdaled, that he's medayek from the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch, l'toch kaira is mutar, which means that the mashkeh does not have to go l'ipud. The Taz, Taz in seif katan yud-beis, is clearly the mashkeh has to go l'ipud, right? Because that's the heter. The heter is that it's not derech mefarek because it went l'ipud. Now, agav, it's interesting that the Mishnah Berurah paskens כנגד the Taz. Okay, so you have to go in Acharonim. If you learned the Acharonim on the side, the Magen Avraham, whatever, whatever, good, good, good, good. The Torah is right. Okay, now, I have a different shaila. In this Mishnah Berurah that you can put into the kaira, does he mean that it doesn't have to go l'ipud, or it means you can even drink it? In this Mishnah Berurah, and I hold it's a meiridige shaila, does the Mishnah Berurah mean it doesn't have to go l'ipud, you can put it into the kaira, and for example, it'd be easier to put it into the kaira than to put it into a garbage. You're at the table, let's say. Or he means you can even drink it after; it doesn't have to go l'ipud at all. There's a difference. L'toch kaira, then you could be starts the heter oichel. Not that you have to come out to the heter, but I don't know, I don't know, that's the shaila.

If you're doing it for—if you're gonna leave it as a drink, then you're... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You wouldn't call it k'dei l'saken gufan l'achilah levad. Maybe. It's a nice question. You can definitely hear where you can ask for a question. What does the Mishnah Berurah mean that it doesn't have to go l'hipuk? Does that right now it has to go l'hipuk, or it just means that you don't have to get rid of it? There's no point in getting rid of it. It can accrue this, and granted, if someone else wants to drink it or whatever it is, let them use it. The shitas yireim is that basar shenishra b'merak, u'pas shenishra b'yayin, asur l'soch. You're not allowed to be soch. Even metzitzah b'peh would be asur, which means even where the Shulchan Aruch says you're allowed to be motzitz, in this case you wouldn't be allowed to be motzitz. In this case you wouldn't be allowed to be motzitz. I, l'choira, we learned that zeisim v'anavim is the only thing that we're machmir, which is al tafei olav bracha, and the rest is mutar. I don't understand. We just, we said that it's always mutar, right? Only by zeisim v'anavim is one shita, tovel u'bracha. Yeah. This kashya is not my kashya, the Magen Avraham asks this kashya. And if you take a look at the Mishnah Berurah, sif katan yud-beis, go ahead. What does the Mishnah Berurah pasken in sif katan yud-beis? No. ... Mishnah Berurah. Yeah, no, no, no. ... sif katan yud-beis. Maybe the one before. What's the one before? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, Morak. He says, meat, right? Yud alef then, excuse me, yud alef, meat, meat. What does he say? Kegon shenas. That's it, right? You see clearly that he's cholek on this yirei, right? Mishaburah is cholek on this yirei. But what's takke pshat in the yirei? So I'm already a kasha. What's takke pshat in this yirei? I don't understand. How could, if zeisim min anavim is shayach that even that's mutar, and it's only a yesh mi she'oser, so how could the yirei go as far as to say that even this is aser? Why is it aser? So I want to say, I'm already the— I hold this emesdige vort. What's the case of zeisim anavim? You're being motzi its it. Mashenkein by the marak, you're being motzi the liquid; it was bolea. So it could be it's worse. That was my whole nekudah. I never knew, is worse metziusa—I'm sorry, shechitah of the thing itself, or is it worse shechitah when it was bolea something you're being soichet? But choirah, this yirei should be a shtikel raya then, that if you ask—how could you answer? What's the hav amina to aser? You're allowed to be motzi maybe even zeisim anavim, the de'oraisa dikah of shechitah, so you can't do marak. I'm already a kasha. I'm already a kasha. Even to be motzi b'peh is aser. Why is it aser? Okay. Now, with this, I want to tie in an interesting nekudah. If you guys are blowing away my notes. Okay. The velt taanis that when you take out a tea bag— You have to be careful not to squeeze the tea, right? Because then it's sechitah, right? I hold, say there are tea bags in the sense, let's say, and you want to take it out, right? So sometimes you squeeze the thing to the side. So l'chatchilah it makes a very big nafka mina. If you're doing it because you want the food, which means you want more tea, so you're squeezing the tea bag. First of all, did you say, was that your question? And the answer is me. I make tea on Shabbos. You know why I make tea on Shabbos? Because yeshiva zatzal said I'm allowed to. When yeshiva said you can make tea on Shabbos. What I meant was that usually people don't have a tea bag. Yes, they do. I do. In the cup, I have it. Why not? You say most people. I'm not a person. I don't count. The yeshiva zatzal didn't count. I said the yeshiva zatzal wasn't a person. Maybe he's a malach.

Just like me, you can say I'm not a ben adam. This can match. This can match. It makes sense because the Mishnah Berurah makes sense. That's why it makes sense to do like the Mishnah Berurah. Kli shelishi, Mishnah Berurah, we learned it how many times we did this? Good, you're a tzaddik. What do you want? Good, that's what. You from the tzaddikim that are gonna bring Mashiach. You’re gonna bring. You got, you got, the whole world does what you do. It’s Mishnah Berurah. Mishnah Berurah says to do that. But the Chashivah R’ Moshe held there’s no reason for it in a kli shelishi. In a kli shelishi, you want to make tea. In France, everybody makes tea. I told them. Yeah, it’s kli shelishi, what do you want? The Chashivah held a kli shelishi is eino mevashel. But tzinu b’shum makom kli shelishi mevashel. So you have a tea bag inside. Yes, I have a tea bag inside. And sometimes you want to get rid of that tea bag for many reasons. One, it’s very uncomfortable to drink. Two, someone else wants the tea bag, right? So are you allowed to squeeze the tea bag? So the Velt says, chas v’shalom, you’re not allowed to. I hold they’re not learning Mishnah Berurah, vaiter. If you are doing it because you want that extra liquid, so then it’s kavanaso for the liquid. But if it’s only because you don’t want it to drip all over, so your kavanah is not for the oichel, so it’s mutar. What should be aser? L’toch mayim is a problem. L’toch mayim is worse than l’toch oichel. But it’s mutar. L’toch keira is always mutar when it’s not your kavanah. It was kovesh; it took in water, right? The tea leaves took in water. It’s pashut. Tea leaves took in water. Are you allowed to put it l’toch keirah? Yes. So that’s, again, you keep on saying that I don’t know what you want. The main nekudah is that it doesn’t have to go l’ibud. That’s the main nekudah l’toch keirah. I’m not being masiach daas. I’m not interested in the thing. That’s not my kavanah. My kavanah is I don’t want it to drip all over the table. I'm not doing dosh l'tzorech achilah. That's the chiluk. But that's what it says in the Shulchan Aruch. I'm not responsible for the din. The din is when it's l'gufo, it's mutar. It doesn't say anywhere in Shulchan Aruch anything other than l'gufo. Everybody's saying it's not דווקא l'gufo, as long as it's not l'tzorech. Right, okay. Okay, so if you don't like the chiddush, it's fine, but that's what I'm saying. It's like with the chiddush. I shouldn't drip all over. Most people squeeze because they're not that— we're not in a concentration camp, so every drop counts. It's because you don't want to drip. Why would a guy squeeze a teabag? It's because he wants more, unless he wants more thicker tea. Yeah, yeah, that's it. But you're squeezing because you don't want to drip all over the table. I see Reb Shabs is not maskim to my chiddush. It's a little shock. To my wild chiddush. Yeah, that's the truth. You want to know something? That's probably the real reason. He still can't get over the first thing. Shiva— it's a famous thing from a shiva. I didn't say anything. I never knew that there's shiva drawing on Shabbos. You're godel, they're reading your mind. As long as they're saying good things about you. Sometimes people read what you do and they say, Look what the guy's doing. What did I do? There was a bris here, so I got attacked because the drinking with the— the bar mitzvah, with that. You saw the guys were attacking me over there. What happened? There was a bunch of guys that came, a bunch. A few guys were attacking me because of the bris, by the bris, by the bar mitzvah. I didn't drink. It was worse than— No, it was much worse. What happened? They were in a tumult about it. What was the kiddush and everything? What do you mean? They want to ... to the ... I know, it had to be a Chinese. Nothing. I got the first two brachos, the bracha and then the ... okay. The tzaddik, and then there was the person who called out, okay. So the second guy made the brachos, the name. The second guy gave the name. Then he drank, and then he came to give me to drink, the maoyel, okay. While I was making the brachos, I was mesupak, because I don't—listen, I'm not from here. I don't know what the minhagim are. The truth, it's not the end of the world if you don't drink, because it's not a birchas hanehenin, it's a birchas mitzvah, right? I'm mechuyiv to drink. So then I started clarifying, yeah, but they're probably going to say it's like by the ... by the ... by the ... by the ... also it wasn't a problem. So why did they spill it? So I'm thinking maybe I should spill it, and I have kiddush. Kids, I said, you know what, leave it alone. Why? Now this is the trick to the whole story. I was mechaven l'chatchila, yeah, while I was making, I was thinking kiddush. But what was the real story?

I figured I don't have to drink it. The mohel took it away from me. I expected that the mohel knows more. The mohel did so many bris, right? He just took the cup away. I said, Okay, ... I don't have to drink it. That was the story, okay? I came back, and ... then he comes over to me that I should drink it, so I drank it. So the guy was telling me, Yeah, but where was the kiddush? I said, Because l'chatchila I was thinking kiddush. I l'chatchila thought kiddush, but the guy... It helps him know there was no melacha Shabbos? There was no... by a pikuach? There was nothing. Well, it is a ... So what did I do? By me, everything is the way it was done in Litv. That's the way I grew up. I grew up by my zeide, by my... I grew up by these people. That's what I... I never saw that they should drink. It's not a chiyuv to drink. The baal bris ... is not a chiyuv to drink. The chiyuv is that it should be ... bracha should be shasui. So let's say on Tisha B'Av, what do you do? You give it to a yenuka. Give it to a child. You're not mechuyiv to drink. So I let it go, right? Could you look up ... gimel? The Ramo speaks about this case. What do you do on a bris on Shabbos? He says it clearly, no? And you tell me if I was supposed to drink. You tell me. Reish nun gimel? And nun... reish... Why am I saying reish? Shin nun gimel maybe. Shin nun gimel, yeah? So not shin nun gimel. So wait a minute, so give it to me, reish nun... Kiddush, no? Which one? Reish ayin. Okay, reish ayin. See you later. I'm gonna have a hard time speaking tonight. My head isn't working. ... said yes. I should've said, I see you later. It's too late. Okay, go ahead, yeah. Says there's a Rama on a bris on Shabbos. What is the Rama say he's supposed to do? It's in, hey. Okay, go ahead, read. It's Rama. Okay, so let's start. Who's doing the drinking? Read it again. Who's doing the drinking? The mohel or the sandek? Is he telling you about the guy who made the baal priah gafen? Okay, have a nice day. I'm telling you, they're crazy. Just give it to the tinok and finish. And then he says, if anything, you just give it to the tinok and finish. Take my cup. Take my cup. You have no idea. You don't understand. The guy was lucky to come back the next day, because if he would have kept puking the next day, by the next day already I said, you know what, let it go. But if he came back the next day, he would not. He would not. Like, tell me, do I have to do different than the Rama? Tell me, does the Rama say that the guy who made the baal priah gafen has to drink it? What are you talking about? The mohel? Either the— unless the mohel is the guy who makes all the brachos. I don't know, unless that's what the Rama means. Maybe there was no such thing as brachos by a bris. Could be, huh? He did everything. He did everything. Maybe the mohel, as he's cutting and he's holding the kos in the other hand, he's Superman, and he's doing all the brachos and giving the name and holding the baby with another foot. It could be. I don't know. The mohel did everything. One thing for sure— are you masking? No, are you masking? No, are you masking if it's the sandek? It's not muchach necessarily he made the baal priah gafen. I mean, something— in other words, somebody has to drink it. That's all the Rama says, and the baby is good, and a tinok would be good enough. So what are you hacking me Chinese? The baby drink it anyway. We put it in the mouth. The baby. I'm not talking about the baby. I'm talking about this. Whatever, I'm just saying. Buy myself, give it from the cup. Yeah, you're getting him drunk all over. You're still all over it, don't you? Huh? You're still all over the baby. Really, you can tell if they make kids, the baby drink it. They put it in the mouth. Yeah, yeah. He drank the whole— Rav Revi'isa, he drank, I saw that. He was feeding him a Rav Revi'isa over there. Eric, sure. Slipped very well. I'd say, ... I don't know, there's certain things that... And if you don't... well, leave alone, ... if you're not 100% sure, even if you're 100% sure maybe the guy's different, what are you drinking a cup? What are you... what are you bothering people? Otherwise it would be boring. It's not boring. It's boring for... not from where I sit. I said it's more pleasant. For us it's entertaining. For us it's entertaining, on my cheshbon. All right, let's go weiter. Okay, see, it had to come out somewhere. It was brewing in me. I didn't say one word the whole time. I put today the right, the right day, ... it had to come out, so it came out. All right, now I feel better. Okay. Now, okay. Now let's go to the controversial side of the pump. All right.

Ihtaina, a woman is allowed to pump. If it hurts her, she's allowed to keep the milk in the pump. Maybe, maybe she could drink it later if you like my chiddush over here, but maybe not. So let's just say, but she's allowed to keep it in the pump, all right? She doesn't have to. You know what they do? Well, should be allowed to pump on Shabbos. If you're—first of all, if you're pumping for the baby, avada you're allowed to pump, because the baby, it's sakanah, he has to eat. That's the reason why it's mutar to be cholel, to be yonek in the first place. But if you're pumping for tzaar, okay. What was my cheshbon? So the emes is like this. I told you, they once came to ask me, and I knew of a navei neizer. That's something else. There's one thing to ... but this is all about mefarek. This is something else. This is mefarek. This is a question of mefarek. Yeah, but you're saving it for the baby. Yeah, but you're not doing it for that. Either way, it's for the baby. But the baby doesn't need so much milk. Let's say you're doing more than what the baby needs. ... But then you're saving it for after Shabbos, maybe you can pump others. You don't have to be cholel on Shabbos for pumping for the weekday, okay? So I told him to allow to pump, and I based it on the ... called the ... I think it's siman yud-daled. ... I think, if I remember correctly, in Aruch HaShulchan, okay. The oilam went crazy. The rav over there in the shul, like, mamash, he went wild, okay. So first of all, I said like this: let's break it down. Do you hold it's de'oraisa or derabbanan? Normal chalivah, which of course is de'oraisa, normal nursing is de'oraisa. But with a pump, it could be a shinui. You have to run. No, no, no, I forgot that I left it on. Oh, with a shinui. Okay, so where did I get this from? Look at Shin Hei, Shaar HaTziyun. Again, I don't have this in my notes, so it's going to be from memory a little bit. Shin Hei, Shaar HaTziyun pei hei. Look at Shaar HaTziyun pei hei. He discusses if b'yad, if b'yad—Shaar HaTziyun, there's no Shaar HaTziyun pei hei? It's close, pei. So maybe it's pei. Go ahead, yeah. Shin hei? No, it goes up to... Try shin chaf hei. Try shin chaf hei. One is in—okay, let me tell you. One is in Shin lamed. There's a din in Shulchan Aruch in Shin Lamed where the Shulchan Aruch says clearly that if an isha has tzaar, she wants to pump it with her hand. That's Shin Lamed, I think it's ches. Shin Lamed, ches. So she's allowed to pump with her hand. She's allowed to take out the—it's ches, right? Tes, ches or tes? Sif ches. Sif ches, okay, good. Memory serves me good. Shin lamed, right? B'yado, chalav, right, okay. So look at the Mishnah Berurah now. Look at that Mishnah Berurah. So that Mishnah Berurah says, al ha'aretz. Says clearly al ha'aretz, right? Oh, wait, wait, oh. Now what's in the va'oid? That's my shayla. What's in the va'oid? In the va'oid he means that you have to put al ha'aretz, or va'oid even when it's not al ha'aretz. Since it's a melachah she'eina tzrichah l'gufah, every time melachah she'eina tzrichah l'gufah, you have to be mechabed the other thing. Why do you have to be mechabed the other thing for? When it's a melachah she'eina tzrichah l'gufah, v'ertesa d'rabbanan, and every d'rabbanan is mutar. The reading is mashma that it's one thing, al ha'aretz, and in that he's saying a plus. What do you need a plus for? If it's al ha'ibud, it's mutar, so what's it talking about? On the v'oid chelek, my whole ... you didn't have to do it al ha'aretz. He's giving you two sevaros. Either you can put it al ha'aretz and take care of the problem, or you can say it's melachah she'eina tzrichah l'gufah. Now, what about being choilev with a pump bichlal? So the truth is, when it's beyad, that's called shinui, it's called klachar yad. He brings the pei, but he doesn't bring it here. Is it pei hei here? So wait a minute. So the truth is, beyad is zeh shinui, that's klal, that's klal. How come I can't ...? Give me a minute. Give me a minute, give me a minute. We'll find it, we'll find it. Give me a minute. I have to go, right? I have one of the truths I really have to ... Okay, rabosai, so we'll do this tomorrow. Please be mochel me, because I don't want to come there and my mind is going to be wandering because I'm late and I'm this and I'm that. I guess ... Just ...

It's time to continue. Say shit. I mean, I have to. This is this. I have no choice. I have to. The truth. Where is Yossi's really?