Halachic Conversations with Rav Yisroel Belsky: Unusual Kesubos, Place Names, and Practical Psak

Transcript

Friday, I had a very interesting du siach. In Hebrew it's called du siach, a good word to know in Hebrew. Du siach means a conversation with Reb Elsky. It's something, I guess, l'kavod the chag of Memorial Day, so we have to give you a little bit ma'adanim, as they say, ma'adanim. So I'll repeat over the conversation. The conversation began that a person was oisek in kiruv. A young guy, I know him. He comes a lot to the shiur. He always comes with interesting topics, like to come and listen to his things. There's what to listen to. He always comes up with interesting things. So this time he came with the following story: a kesubah, a woman who's getting married, and he's being mesader kiddushin. But the kesubah is not your normal standard kesubah, and there's a lot of shinuyim. So he's coming to Reb Elsky to ask, yeah, mesader kiddushin, should I use it, or should I make an issue that, listen, we can't use the kesubah; we have to get the standard kesubah. Good. So first, before he went to Reb Elsky, he showed it to me. He asked me, What's my opinion about the whole thing? So I looked at it, and right off the crack of the bat, I saw a few problems, a few problems. I think he was trying to ask me also what should he ask Reb Elsky about, meaning what questions. So the first issue that was obvious, the kesubah was the standard kesubah, more or less. We'll soon see it wasn't exactly standard. And underneath it, there were wedding vows in English: I so and so respect and this and hereby and gantze maises, right? To love, to cherish, with the wedding vows at the bottom. Love and cherish, a gantze maise. So what's the problem? The problem with it is that when the woman signs it, she thinks that this is a translation to what it says above. So it could be she's bichlal not signing the kesubah. She's signing the wedding vows, which is shtusim v'havalim. It's nothing. There's a signature on her behalf, that there was kinyanim. So she reads it, she sees it as being wedding vows. First of all, there was for her signature too, the rabbi and the bride, the groom, gantze maises. So the question is, when she signs to the above, she thinks that it's a kesubah. So I told him right away, I'm a father, you're going to have to make sure, even if you, you know, you don't want to go into the whole thing of mesorah, you know, you want to change the mesorah, you not change the mesorah. L'maaseh, you're going to have to tell her clearly that this is not a translation of this, because she thinks that it's the kesubah. He had to ask Reb Elsky that question. That was the first question, and Reb Elsky said the same thing, that you've got to make sure that she understands that this is not what she's signing in the above. The next issue was besulta. She's a besula. She's a psula, not a besulah. She's closer to a psula than a besulah. So the question is, what do you do with such a case when they write besulah da? So Rebelsky, so Rebelsky said that you're not mechuyiv to ask. You're not mechuyiv to ask. Just because you're choshesh she'sh'eina besulah, you're not mechuyiv to ask, you hear? And if you're really concerned, there's an eitzah. What's the eitzah? Why do they write besulah? Because the bezoyn when they read over the kesubah, right? That's where the problem is. So what you do is very simple. You have two kesubos. You have the real one, and you have the one that they read under the chuppah. The reading of the kesubah under the chuppah is not lahalachah. People don't know this. And that's where a big issue comes from. I'll tell you where the big issue comes from. Today, a kesubah—and I'm just, what do they call that, putting into his words, what do they call it, paraphrasing—a kesubah today, the reading of it became a big chashuvah thing. We give it to—this Rosh Yeshiva gets a kedushin, and the wife's Rosh Yeshiva gets the kesubah. Rosh Yeshiva...

Whatever, herush, she would get the ksuba. The emes is, by Sefardim, Rav Chaim of Toldos, that it's a bizayon to read the ksuba. It's like a— it was once a discussion, I think it was a yochasan, I believe, that one of the chasanim was a whole shaila that he would get the ksuba. I don't know what it was. He'd get the ksuba and I would get bracha acharita, something like that. We were working out the— I understand, but that was the shaila then. Who gets— I don't know. He was mesader kiddushin by you, right? By one of the chasanim, it was a shaila if he should get the ksuba or the bracha acharita. So Rav Chaimov said, you know what, by Ashkenazim, ksuba reading is a big thing, so you take it. By Sefardim, the bracha acharita is the big thing, so I'll take it, like this. We both got— I told him he can have both of them. It's not negea to me at all, believe me. I really don't care that much. The kitzur, why is the ksuba nothing? Now the truth is, in Europe, the shamash of the shul used to read the ksuba. What's the reason for reading the ksuba? The reading of the ksuba is very simple, rabosai. It's to make a hefsek between the ba'arei pri hagafen of the kiddushin and the ba'arei pri hagafen of the sheva brachos, because you have a shaila of a bracha levatalah. That's the whole reason that we read over the ksuba. People think you read the ksuba, it's a big, you know, chelek of the maaseh kiddushin, the din of the amirah and the gantze kiddushin. The emes is, the ksuba is just l'hafsik, to make a hefsek between the ba'arei pri hagafen. Now what's this shaila? So I'm going to— And paraphrase also, like this you'll know the sugya a little bit. There's a whole shaila when you make the borei pri hagafen, what is it going on? Why? Pashtus, when you make the borei pri hagafen, who makes it? The mesader kiddushin. Who ends up drinking? Chassan-kallah end up drinking. Problem is, he already made a borei pri hagafen. So how many borei pri hagafens can he make already? How could you make on one kos that you drink one cup of a thing, or two borei pri hagafens? You can't do it. It's just not possible. So there's interesting minhagim. The Briskers, Reb Chaim Brisker and a lot of the Brisker mahalach would be, is — or not would be, is — that the mesader kiddush drinks from the wine. The mesader kiddushin makes the borei pri hagafen, and the borei pri hagafen is chal on his, on his... And the meila, the second borei pri hagafen is the chassan-kallah's borei pri hagafen. Now, it has a lot to do with the lomdus of the borei pri hagafen. Is the borei pri hagafen a birchas hamitzvah? Is it a chelek of the kiddushin? Is it a borei pri hagafen birchas hanehenin? Because if it's just a birchas ha-mitzvah, so you're not mechuyav to drink from it, you're not mechuyav to taste from it. It's just a... it should be chal on the thing, kiddush al hakos. Masha'enkein if it's a birchas hanehenin, someone has to taste from it. The minhag of the Gedolim that felt that it was a problem, they used to spill wine on their hand. That's how they used to do it. They used to spill a little bit and then lick their hand. Like this, you're not taking the drink, right? But, right, you're not pogem the kos. Well. There's a whole other plug. Guys, you're not drinking, and you're getting the birchas hagafen. A lot of baalei halacha, big Rosh Yeshivas do that. They spill a little bit on their hand, they lick it, and then yotzei l'chol hadeos that you got the first birchas hagafen, and the chassan kallah gets the second birchas hagafen. Fine. Grada, I've seen many times that they used to give the chassan kallah to drink from the first birchas hagafen. I think other... I think my... used to do it that way. I have to ask my father. I think by my father's wedding it was done that way. Huh? Rav Chaim Ozer, but he makes them drink twice. No, I'm saying he makes them drink twice, right? Okay, this is the whole shailah. Because of this, they read over the kesubah. So it comes out, they're reading the kesubah is mamash nothing, with nothing, with vaiter nothing. And therefore, kesubah she'ridin without a pesul. And ela mai, the people are going to listen and say, What? What? No pesul? Of course, everybody's going to be sitting to listen, you know, to hear lashon hara. People stick their ear closer to make sure. So now they don't pay attention to the kesubah, because who cares? He gets money, he gets... they're not giving the money anyway. You're thinking about how come no one pays attention to the kesubah. What's it again to them? If there's lashon hara involved, everybody's going to sit and listen.

You heard? You heard, Leah? So therefore what you do is you write a standard kesubah just to read. Okay, shein arapa l'maaseh. The next question that came up was, Tzivya bas Aaron. That was the name of the kallah. Two problems. Aaron was spelled with a vav. So we know in Israel they spell Aaron with a vav, and the people who print Beis Aarons spell Aaron with a vav. The last Beis Aaron that was printed, they put a vav in there. Yeah, I mean, it's just ... but that's what the guy did. The old Beis Aaron, the little ones, the little Beis Aarons have had with a vav in there. The guy obviously didn't know how to read or write or whatever it was. Aaron spelled in the Torah without a vav. But our place is in Tanach it's spelled with a vav, and in Israel it's spelled with a vav. So if you've got to ask me this first, and he didn't know my name was Aaron, but I mean I would know this anyway, ... but I knew this because I know it's a Talmud: yud-vav, this vav. I told him the yud-yud ... with the vav also, and it's not a problem, ... and so Reb Elsky paskened, and he says the same cheshboynes. He didn't say the Israel, because in Israel, but he said in Tanach we find Aaron is spelled with a vav sometimes also. There's a bigger problem to name Aaron. What was the problem to name Aaron? She's not bas Aaron. It's not true. It's her foster father. The father ran away. The father ran away when she was a little girl. I mean, you understand, a very happy family. The father ran away when she was a little girl, and the mother remarried, and this Aaron was megadel her. So the question is, how can you write Tzivya bas Aaron? So what happened was that Reb Elsky said that R' Moshe paskened in such a case, you're supposed to add Aaron shegidlo k'bas. Bas Aaron shegidlo k'bas, that brought her up like a daughter. Problem is, who's going to want to write that, you know what I mean? What? Yeah, sure she knows. They could, but they didn't. Why would she not want to write it? Because it's embarrassing. No, I'm saying if you want to do that, okay, I'm saying, but then you have to start rewriting the teshuva then. I'm saying whatever. And l'chorah, you have to write shegidlo k'bas. Then Reb Elsky said even that has to be corrected also. It would have been better off if it would have written Bas Aharon ben ... this, or whatever his name was, ben Chaim Yankel, whatever it was, shegidlo k'bas. Why? Because then it comes out that it's sivya, not Bas Aharon. The way it reads is sivya, who is bas Aharon ben this. So then you're actually saying his name, because if you write ... it doesn't mean anything anymore, because if you don't write sivya bas Aharon, bas Chaim, ben Chaim. What? You always have to write sivya bas, because in Hebrew that's the last name. Sivya bas is your last name. There's no last names. What you write is sivya bas whatever it is. You have to write bas something. Now the problem is, you can't write bas Aaron because it's not. But if you went and you wrote Aaron ben whatever it is, so automatically you don't mean Tzivya bas, because you don't write Tzivya with the grandfather. I understand, right, I hear. But if you're writing shegidla kebas, you mean you want to know, bichlal, how come this, so where's the Tzivya? Yeah. So the truth is, you don't have to write more than who she's identified with. You don't have to write more than who she's identified with. The Tzivya bas is because you have to identify which Tzivya. So you identified which Tzivya. In such a case, you wouldn't have to write a last name. He said it would have been better off if you would have written bas Aaron ben shegidla kebas. So then Reb Elsky, bichochmaso, this is, this is, like certain times I just sit there and I realize, you know, this is what I go for. He says, yeah, but you think they're going to let you write a whole story in the kesubah, shegidla kebas ben... They're not going to want that. So he said a pashut zach. He said, instead of writing bas Aaron, bas l'Aharon, put in a lamed there. So it's not bas Aaron, it's bas—she's a daughter too.

And that's pshat shegidul. ... That's ... I just stood there, you know, so that's what a pasuk is. That's where a koach of a pasuk is. He says, dikduk, if you wrote bas Aharon, it's the daughter of. If you wrote the daughter to, so then you know it's not of; it's daughter to, means she's adopted. Okay. Then he looks at the thing, he reads through the whole thing, and he says, more or less it's all good, a little weird, a little shainess. Then he says, by the way, I want you to know nobody wrote this. It's ksuvim, he says. He says, What do you mean? How do you know nobody wrote it? He says, It was definitely a computerized thing, because it's not shayach that a sofer should write every tof the same and every aleph. It's all exact. So he says, Obviously this was written on a computer. Is there anything wrong? He says, No, it's standard, there's nothing. Right. So he reads through the whole thing and he says, Otherwise it's good. And all of a sudden you see the mind working, you know, all of a sudden you see the mind working. He goes, One second, one second, bring it back to me again. The computer, you know, he's scanned it in his computer, and you see the way he... Bring it back to me again. Florida asher b'medinas America tzafon. That's what they wrote, that it's happening in Florida, which is the medina of America tzafon. So he goes, Wait a second, slow down. He says, There's a lot of problems with this. First of all, he says, Florida is spelled with an aleph and America is spelled with a hey. What's wrong with the aleph, hey? What is this all about? He says, I learned so much from this. He said that any... Root word, Lashon Kodesh, or in Yiddish, which is based on Lashon Kodesh, the letters are spelled with a hey. Anything which is a foreign word, which is not Lashon Kodesh, which is a made-up word, it came. So even in Yiddish, when you write it, you write it with an aleph. There's one name brought down in the entire Shulchan Aruch, he says. You only find one name ever mentioned in Shulchan Aruch. It's the name Beila. Beila is brought down in Shulchan Aruch in Hilchos Gittin. The Rama brings it down, that Beila has to be spelled with an aleph. Why? Because since—he explained—since it's not Torah, it's not from the Torah, the word Beila, it's from Russian, Aramaic, so therefore, like Aramaic, so therefore it's always with an aleph. Okay, so Beila is with an aleph. Ben Yehuda, he says—this is the genius of a person that knows so much—he says Ben Yehuda, when he wrote the Israeli—first he called him Yimach Shemo—when he wrote the Israeli language, he tried to show that, what do we, we don't have to stick to the old mesorah of Torah, but what's wrong with making up our own language? So he changed all the alephs to heys. Everything in Hebrew, there's no such thing as aleph; it's all hey. So America is supposed to be spelled with an aleph because it's not in the Torah, and he went and made it with a hey to show, I don't like this rule. This rule is anti-Medina Israel and stuff. So he changed it. He said that was his yesod, to change the memeila. He spelled all the alephs with heys. He says if you look in Israel, they're going to spell everything with a hey. America is spelled with a hey, and on the gittin and the kedushin that come from Eretz Yisrael, the modern ones, every— Walls of hate supposed to be an aleph. It's supposed to all be with an aleph. So then all the sefer, the notes, the people write, he says it's a big yesodistic zach. It's a hashkafa thing. The mesorah, we, listen, it's not in the Torahs, it's a made-up thing, it's an aleph. They're trying to show so what? So it's in the Torah, so what? Big deal. So they put it, I mean, they hold that we can make up our own language. We're Israel, we're a country. They made it all to heys. He says, Florida is spelled with an aleph correctly, and America is spelled with a hey incorrectly. It's supposed to be America with an aleph. Oh, wait a second. Then he says, America itself is wrong. Why? Now get, listen to the knowledge and the, what do you call it, the shimush talmidei chacham that goes into a person that for years is oisek in halacha. He says like this, that if you take a look, the Mishamesh, Reb Yankiv, Reb Moshe, everybody, all the shailas come to him. He has shimush every day, shimush he has, which is very big. Kitzur. So he said like this.

America itself is a continent. It's not the country, so you can't have Medina America itself. Wait a second. He says, even though it's not a lehedyka mistake, because it is an America itself, but it doesn't read properly by saying Medina America itself, and it's not true. He said, hen mitzad the word Medina, and hen mitzad, you don't write a state which is in a continent; you write a state which is in a country. So in other words, A, you shouldn't write the word Medina because it's not even true. And even if it didn't say Medina, it's also not right, because you're supposed to have the state which is in the country which is in the continent, if you want to write the continent. So he said over that Rav Moshe and Rav Yankiv argued on how to write a kesubah about New York, Brooklyn, for example. Rav Moshe used to write asher b'Brooklyn, finished, end of story. Rav Yankiv used to write Brooklyn asher b'New York. What was Rav Yankiv's cheshbon? Because there's many Brooklyns all over America. In Cleveland there's a Brooklyn. In Cleveland there's a Brooklyn. There's a lot of Brooklyns. So the question is, you have to write Brooklyn asher b'New York. Rav Yankiv held, yeah. Rav Moshe held, they asked Rav Moshe, Aren't there many other Brooklyns? So listen how Rav Moshe answered. Stam Brooklyn is Brooklyn. This is Brooklyn. It's a famous person, a famous thing, Brooklyn. I mean, Brooklyn—if you say the word Brooklyn, unless you heard there's a Brooklyn in Georgia, you know, Brooklyn is Brooklyn, right? So he says they, said Rav Moshe, would have to write Brooklyn asher b'Georgia, Brooklyn asher b'Cleveland. But the regular Brooklyn is what? Brooklyn. He said, why did Rav Moshe want to do this? Because Rav Moshe held it's better to stop before this, because then there's no end to it: asher b'New York, asher b'United States, asher b'medinas continent itself in America. There's no end to it. He says people do this because they want to make it fancy, but then you end up making mistakes. Then you end up making mistakes, and the best thing is the less you write. By the way, Rav Moshe held this way also by the tenaim. The big tenaim, Rav Moshe cut it down into, chopped it to size. You have Rav Moshe, you walk into a store, you ask Rav Moshe's tenaim. It's short and to the point. But you make tenaim, make tenaim, whatever it is. You have a nusach of what you give and what you don't. Rav Moshe held you have to cut it down: I give, I sat, I hello, and I'm with friends and that. Rav Moshe held you have to be very careful what you write in these things. Wait. Kids, oh, I forgot to tell you one more point with the bas Aaron. Rav Belsky mentioned about all his ha'aros, it could be it's not even l'kuva anyway because the kesubah is only derabbanan. He said since the kesubah is only derabbanan, which means by a get it would be more of an issue. And he said that the bas Aaron he held would be pasul by a get. That's what he said. The bas Aaron, the same story, by a get would be pasul. So I was me'ayer to him. I said, Rebbe, wait a second. This is very important. Don't think I'm just throwing this in. It's important you cite here, I learned. Again, I don't remember if he said it after that. Maybe I'm just repeating it the way the conversation was, but it's really negea to two pratim before. Whenever you have the bas Aaron, which is not Aaron because it's only gidla, so the question is by a get, what would be the same thing? So Rav Belsky said by a get it would be pasul. By kesubah, by ... drabonon, ... by get, it can't be possible. So I asked him, I said, Rebbe, one second. There's a klal, there's a klal that by get, the way the name works is, mada miskarya; it has to do with the way she's called. I mean, the father ran away years ago. She's called Bas Aaron. I mean, that's her name, Tzivia Bas Aaron. So how can it be possible by a get? He says, You're probably right. And then he thinks a minute and he goes, Tell me, I mean, you think anybody really knows that she's Tzivia Bas Aaron? I said, Yeah. I said, When it comes to the Torah, it's Tzivia Bas Aaron. So he looks at me and goes, Torah? Where did she come—what, she got a bas mitzvah, she got an aliyah? Well, how did she come to the Torah? He looks like he was there telling me, What are you talking about? So I said, Rebbe, wait a second. Well, can I question that? She gets a mishaberach, Tzivia Bas Aaron. That's how she goes. So that's a miskarya. And if she's a miskarya, Tzivia Bas Aaron, so forget, that's what it is. Because he was trying to ask me, She's not known. Who would ever know that she's Tzivia Bas Aaron? It's not even a miskarya. It's not even what she's called.

Except that that's what she goes by, by the Torah. I said, What Torah? Yeah, aliyahs. I said, Rebbe, I don't mean aliyahs. I meant, like, she probably did get aliyahs, but I'm saying, but the point is... So here comes Reb Elsky's humor, the charifus. He looks at the thing, and in the English it says her English name, Bertonter Sanentia, some Spanish name she took over there. She goes, You really think that she's called Tzivya Bas Aaron in the shul that she goes to? And you think in the synagogue that they make her mishaberach, she's called Tzivya Bas Aaron? I'll tell you how they make a mishaberach for her in their synagogue. And this aunt starts laughing. Mishaberach avoseinu, Avraham Yitzchak v'Yaakov — that's what you do. Avraham Yitzchak v'Yaakov. Avraham Yitzchak v'Yaakov, hu yevarech et Cynthia Bertonter Bas... Max. He says, What do you think? Does anybody know she's Tzivya Bas Avraham? I was on — I couldn't — I just couldn't stop. I was sitting looking at the man. That's the pshat: a posek is l'maaseh. He talks l'maaseh. I asked him a good she'eilah. I mean, halacha l'maaseh. But she comes to her mishaberach, that's how she's called. She's called Tzivya Bas Aaron. So he's telling me, You really think she's called that? But when she gets her mishaberach in the synagogues that she prays in, she ain't getting no mishaberach, Tzivya Bas Aaron, okay? Bertonter Santia, whatever her name over there is. And he's looking at the thing to try to be able to read. He couldn't even read the name, you know, Bertonchia, some Spanish name. Okay. Kids, listen to the end of the maaseh. And he says, Kids, Reb Elsky held that if it was Tzivya Bas Aaron and it's not Tzivya Bas Aaron, by get it should be a problem. Okay. Then he says that, asher b'medinas America tzofen, it's a problem because, like I explained to you, the continent, the whole thing. So the guy asks, what should be written there? Because now I have to change it, so what should I write there? He says, if you want to write, you have to write, asher b'artzos habris. So then he says, I'll tell you the truth, I don't even know where Eretz Habris comes from. He says, where does the word come from? Who made up the word Eretz Habris? He himself said. He said, I don't know why they mean Eretz Habris. He says, the closest thing you want to say is Florida sheb'artzos habris. Wait, listen to what he says. So the guy asked him, yeah, but America is also America. It's also the way of calling the United States. So what's wrong to say, asher b'medinas America, which is America tzofen? I mean, the word America is there. That's what the guy asked him. So Reb Belsky looks at him and he starts singing America the Beautiful. He starts singing, word for word, America, America, America the Beautiful. Whatever, I don't even know the song, but he sang the whole thing. And he just keeps on singing it, and I'm looking at him, I'm going, what are you doing? I couldn't understand what he was doing. So I asked him, I said, Rebbe, why are you singing? I couldn't understand, what are you doing? He was just singing the song. He's just singing America. I thought maybe he was tired, pashut, I don't know. No, I thought maybe he brought up America, an American USA. So you know what he tells me? You're laughing. You know what he tells me? He says I was claring. This is such a brilliant thing. This is one of the basic songs of the medinah. America the Beautiful, I mean, they sing it as one of their, like their, come out their anthem. And there they don't say United States of America; they call it America. So my shayla was, is America kinui that is slang in the street, or takkeh officially from the government you could cut off the United States of America? Because when you write on a letter, you have to write United States of America, USA. You don't write America; you write a letter, you write America, you write USA. But when they sang the song, which is one of the founding songs of the country, they see that America. So he was claring, while he was singing it, he was claring, you see, look at the song, maybe America is America without the United States of America. It says America the Beautiful, so it's right. So, yeah, but the question is, it's called United States of America. I mean, it started off as America, and then it came later, the United States of America. Yeah, but today it's written United States of America. You don't write a thing America. You'll never have, when you write something, America. Nobody writes America. U.S. you can have without America: United States. Today it's called the United States.

The thing is, again, this is Reb Elsky's genius and his... He started clarifying that the word states is not a real name anyway, because the word, we don't live in a state. He says, You're head of state. What do you call, Secretary of State. State is the whole medina shebichlalius. He says, New York, it's a borrowed name to call it a state, because it's actually not a state. We live in a county. The county is New York. These are counties within the big state, which is New York. We live in a big—we live in the county New York, which is one big state. That's right. That's what he's trying to say. The word state is not Florida, which is a state within. Who? Because we don't call it that. He says, But that's what it really is. It's called the County of Queens, New York. Exactly. He said that the word state is a borrowed lashon to show that each one is a chashuv bifnei atzmo, even though it's takkeh not a state, because the word state means— But they had their own government within themselves. Taira mentioned, I'm not here to learn with American history. I'm repeating over his chakirah, what goes through his mind. I'm trying to—if you hold differently, so you hold differently. I'm what I tell you. I'm telling you this is what was going through his mind, that even the word states could be likuva, because it's takkeh not states. It's United States, but it's called United States, but maybe it's called America, you see from the song. This is what goes through a brilliant man's mind when you ask him a simple shaila out of nowhere about a kesubah. Again, you hold that it is called the state. He said himself, I understand it's called—he knows it's called state. He's not arguing with the metzius. He's trying to say that the word state is a metoyus, that you should know that it's takanah not a state. If you would know the translation of the word state, you'll know that we don't live in the state of New York. Hagam it's called the state of New York. It's a borrowed lashon. So he's trying to explain that even the loshonos that we do have are borrowed loshonos. Ilan, you with me? Yeah? I see you and your chavrusa, sir. So he claimed that, for example, he said that—what was he saying about Berlin, for example? You can't write Germany asher b'Europe. I'm sorry, you can't write Berlin asher b'Europe. You have to write Berlin, Germany, and if, again, asher b'Europe, you don't write that either. He says the whole thing of where the state is Europe, the continent, is also not. Well, America, he said, but it's wrong. He says it's not good lashon. They're trying to make a union. It didn't pass. France objected. It's never going to happen. Baruch Hashem, the best thing is that it never happens. Okay, now, this, rabosai, was the conversation, A, about the kesubah. The next part of the conversation was as follows. Today, they are starting to fear—the scientists are starting to fear something called the bird flu. Bird flu. It's a type of influenza, a type of flu that kills people. It's a type—bird flu can kill a person. The problem is, the question is, the issue is, it has to first become capable for a human to catch it. In the state, the way the virus is, a human can't catch it. How can a human catch it if it mutates to the pig, and from the pig to the person? That's how it works. From the bird directly, you can't get it, but it has to first go into the mutate to the pig. It's a Chazal. Chazal say this, that every mageifah, it goes from the animal to the pig, and then the next step is to the human being, and osin taanis. The Gemara speaks like you make a taanis on it. So they're claiming now, the scientists, they think it's already in the pig, this influenza, and it's supposed to—they claim that it could kill one of every six. It will be a pandemic in the world, a pandemic in the world that will kill one of every six. So the person asks, so then lefi the Gemara, you're mechuyav to make taanisim, shtei tachanunim Gemara. Once it reaches—the pandemic reaches the pig, the halacha is you're mechuyav to go and make a Yom Taanis. So he declared, should we start discussing this as a Yom Taanis? So Reb Elsky, either he didn't know the facts, meaning he didn't read up so much on this nekudah, and I'm not even so sure he was right about his nekudah went to the pig. I think they're afraid it's going to go to the pig. I didn't hear it the way he heard it, al kol panim.

Miseder hachanami. What should happen is that they should, when there's bahab, during slichos, a person should have in mind that this mageifah might be looming in the background, and yechuiv takkeh to be mispallel for it. It's a chiyuv, like the Rambam brings down, that whenever a person sees tzaros coming, he's mechuyav al פי halacha, al פי the Torah, al פי the mitzvos haTorah, to be lizakel u'riak kol tzarah shelo tavo. It's one of the chiyuvei Torah. You daven to Hashem only because you don't want it to happen. It's a chiyuv to daven. It's a chiyuv to daven, lizakel u'riak kol tzarah shelo tavo. So, miseder hachanami, we're in the process of starting to identify the chiyuv for this epidemic that's coming. Okay. The next part of the conversation— If it reaches the pig, then it'll turn to the people automatically. It doesn't. That's the way epidemics—I'm not a scientist, but that's the way it works. It's a Gemara. The Gemara speaks about it. The Gemara says, kivan once it reaches the chazir, then the Gemara says you're mechuyav to make a taanis. It's Gemara, pirush Gemara. Okay. Topic was Rav Moshe's teshuvos in general. Rav Moshe has a lot of heterim. So, are we to take the heterim as halacha? Let's say if Rav Moshe said it, then it's mutar. For example, Rav Moshe is matir that a woman can have uncovered from her sheitel a tefach in the front and a tefach in the back. Rav Moshe's teshuva like this. So the question is, could you pasken like that? Let's say this guy's a rav on tefillin. Sorotzkin, first of all, said it's not a tefach; it's two fingers, two fingers in the front. Rav Moshe says tefach. It's two fingers in the front and the... Oh, he explains. So I, Rav Moshe said it. So he said over a beautiful story, a beautiful story. He said over that there was a kid in his class that started to wear a small yarmulke. And the father was a frum from Europe, but it bothered him terribly. The kid started to wear these bummy yarmulke, you know. So the kid came back and said, But Rav Moshe is matir it. So he said, You old Rav Moshe, the posek hador, here's the teshuva, and he shows Rav Moshe's teshuva that you're allowed to wear a yarmulke that just covers the top of the head. So the father was so angry that he took the kid down to Rav Moshe. He took the kid down to Rav Moshe, and he said he walked into MTJ and everybody was wearing those yarmulkes. Rav Moshe's yarmulkes. So he said he was scared that that's it, finished. What's he going to do? Everybody was wearing these small yarmulkes. He walks over to Rav Moshe, tells Rav Moshe, My kid said that he's wearing a small yarmulke because you said you're allowed to do it. So Rav Moshe said, Chas v'shalom, I never said you're allowed to do it. You're supposed to wear, you're supposed to wear a big yarmulke, and he started telling the kid to wear a big yarmulke. So the kid asked Rav Moshe, I don't understand. I read your teshuva. The teshuva says clearly that you said... He says, That's not what I meant. What I meant was, in case you wear a small yarmulke, you're not over an issur. But that doesn't mean that I told you to wear a small yarmulke. There's something called, I wrote my teshuvah, so you should be over the issur. But that doesn't mean I told you to go do it. You should take care of big yarmulkes. The kid went across the street with his father, and there was a sefarim store, an empty chain. There used to be a sefarim store. I remember they got a grandfather used to take me there. He bought him a big black yarmulke and came to yeshiva the next day with a big black yarmulke. So Rav Velsky said, You see that all the teshuvos are about not pshat, it's what you should do. It's what you could do and you're not over the issur. That's the pshat. Oh, so we'll talk about it a different time. Now, then I asked Rav Velsky, a she'eilah in the three weeks or nine, or a sefirah time, if you're allowed to cut it, allowed to cut it, so you can. So the truth is, and this is I want to tell you, it's very important. You cite psak. Let's do a psak of a gadol. I asked many people, because I couldn't find anybody talking about it. Someone called me up. I told you this. Someone called me up about it. I didn't know what the answer. I never saw it anywhere. I never saw the she'eilah anywhere. And I looked. I went through all the piskei. I looked at all the sefarim, lach, the kuntresim. Nobody talks about it. So I asked rabbanim. So everybody tells me, Oh, why not? And in fact, they don't talk about the ... that it's mutar, ... So I said, I don't understand. What's this yesod of the issur?

Haircut. They didn't ask him what's not a haircut. You didn't cut your hair, you know what I mean? I don't know. It's a lomdishe shaila. You know, you have a no, you have a no. It's a shaila. You're not supposed to look good. You're not supposed to make yourself look good. Now what is it, issur tashpoires? You want to be a brisker. It's issur tashpoires, and this is not a tashpoires because it doesn't have the shem tashpoires. I don't know, that's how you pasken the shaila. I'm saying, but that's the only other way to be matir it, you know what I mean? Ma nafshach. But you say, yeah, it's a good svara. It's a shevach svara. L'maaseh, l'maaseh, the person has enjoyment. You have beautiful shape. What's the difference if you cut your hair? You have a no, you look good. That's the whole idea. You look good, right? So if a woman comes and makes her shape beautiful, but she doesn't look good, I mean, zicher, you think, I mean, you feel good, you look... I don't say what's—it's not in your head, it's not attached to your head, I don't know. It's a shevach. You're not actually feeling good. You're not actually looking good. You're not... I can't. Let me tell you something. You want to know something? You're right and you're not right. You're right that it's a nice svara. Is it l'maaseh to pasken like this? It's very shver. In this svara, you get into the nature of the halacha, and once you get into the nature of the halacha... Exactly. Okay, good. I understand that that's why I discuss it here, because, again, many a times I answer like this, and many a times I answer like that. Again, you know, the spirit of the halacha and the halacha, and you have to know. So that's why I brought the Reb Pels. So let me tell you what he said. So let me tell you what he said. Listen to what he said. He said like this: ... I learned so much from. On the individual basis, takkanah shouldn't ... minus, sevara, you shouldn't. If the spirit of the law is the same, it doesn't make a difference. But you can't asser it. Why? Because Chazal didn't asser it, and we don't have a koach to asser things Chazal didn't asser, to make it difficult on the people who have parnassah from it. You have to make a cheshbon; they have people who have parnassah from it. He says he remembers that there was a barber that came to complain to him, You're not making it difficult on me for the nine days and three weeks. I don't have parnassah those few days, weeks. I don't have parnassah. So he says there are people who make parnassah on cutting sheitelach. He says, You're right. In cheshbon you might be right, but if Chazal didn't asser, we don't have a right to asser b'rabim because those people are not going to have parnassah from it. That's a psak. That's how an adam gadol, how a person who's meshamesh Reb Moshe and Reb Yankiv paskens shailos. Did Reb Elsky put his name on the simcha guidelines? Who? Did Reb Elsky put his name on the simcha guidelines that are going to come out with? Because— I'm sure they didn't ask him. Because I know musicians that lost parnassah from it. I'm sure they didn't ask him. They don't ask people that know how to learn. This is all commercial. This is all, you know, cheshkafes. I know. If Chazal— I'm saying it over because I want you to learn from this. If Chazal didn't asser it, don't make it difficult on the other guy. You yourself and a chanami, you should takke not— if you feel enjoyment from cutting sheitelach and you feel like it's a heker, don't do it. You do it on a personal basis, you shouldn't do it. Corner of much of the two things there is not considered erva. That's what he's trying to say. It's not erva, but it's not that it should be done. That's what Reb Eliezer was saying. Oh, then there was another thing, last thing, and then we'll... Yeah, what? Okay, afterwards, afterwards. How did he interpret the tefach to be... Just that if you do it, you're not... it's not... you're not a... I don't know. The guy said tefach. It's fine. So maybe the guy made a mistake, and therefore he said... Could be Reb Eliezer was telling me Reb Moshe never said a tefach. Okay. Child waxing is not to look bad. Also looking... Again, I'm not saying that if she has a wild shape, but there she should be... there's a shechiyanu problem. If it's new, then there's a shechiyanu problem. If it's old, it's to make her look good. To cut a new shape, shechiyanu problem anyway; she can't wear shechiyanu. Once you can wear it, to reshape it. So that's a...

Last, last and final thing, and this is not to repeat in public, meaning, I don't know, ... I don't know, okay, ... but don't go around talking about it. A person asked Reb Elsky that Rav Pam and Rav... what was the name again, the Rosh Yeshiva, the other Rosh Yeshiva there, Kaneman, not Kaneman, what was his name again? ... Rosh Yeshiva in Torah Vodaath, not Quinn, the paisik one, the one he was a rav of shtickel, what was his name? His son is now in Flatbush, ... Whatever, I forgot his name. Well, whatever, he was a kohen, I think, he was a kohen. Well, but he was a menahel, he was a Rosh Yeshiva. Really? Reb Elsky is a Levi, that I know. Rav Pam was a kohen. They were all kohanim. Okay, but Kitzur, so they used to shave Erev Shabbos Sefirah. Rav Pam used to shave Erev Shabbos Sefirah. Erev Shabbos during Sefirah, he used to shave. So he asked Reb Elsky, what's the pshat? So Reb Elsky said, halacha is takke no heter, it's takke no heter. So he said, so then what's pshat? Rav Pam. So Reb Elsky said, you have to know the times that they lived in. It was a different tekufah. It's hard to understand the pikuach they lived in. He speaks about shaving every erev Shabbos for the ... He quotes that Rav Pam used to do it. Rav Ovadia says you're allowed to. But that's Rav Ovadia. The chassam sofer— Now what? That's if you can't handle it. That's if you can't handle it, I understand. Rav Pam used to do it every erev Shabbos. Let me tell you something. You have to know, a lot of Rav Ovadia's teshuvos is because he's talking to an olam that's going to do it anyway. He's paskening for the hamon am in Israel; half of them are not even— No, you see, not that way. You have to know how to— from Rav Pam doing something to speaking to the guy in the army who's doing something, it's a different sugya. Who's Rav Ovadia paskening for? The guy in the army. Who's he paskening for? For the regular guy running the streets of ... I mean, what do you want him to do? No, you have to find a heter for these people. What are you going to do? You're talking about the chozer b'teshuvah that have no— I mean, you're talking about different mahalach. Rav Pam went and he did it. He was obviously a chashuv person then too. I mean, he had a reason for doing it. So Belsky said that it was the question of the times. This person said back that I heard from the family members of Rav Pam, that Rav Pam held the halacha that it's mutar. You want to know what the makor was? And Rav Belsky says, I don't know. First time I ever hear Rav Belsky say, I don't know. So that was the end of the conversation. It went on, but I left because I saw he was getting tired, and I have derech eretz for my rebbe. He started to yawn and this and that. I said, You know what? I'm out of here. That was where it stopped. Because then we started asking, the next question was, Hayitachen ...? That was the next question. What's the pshat? Oh, sorry, I could tell you over a little bit what he said, but then I saw Mioni, I left. He said like this. He said that the Chofetz Chaim's wife did ... That's what he said. So I said, yeah, but I heard from my grandmother differently, whatever. So he says, and then the guy said, yeah, but the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim with the woman in the back. So he says, I know b'diya burah the woman in the back was a maid. It was a maid. It was a maid in the house. He says his father was a radin, and he says, I know that it was a maid. It was not a family member of the Chofetz Chaim's home. Chofetz Chaim's family members did cover their hair. Other people in Radin didn't, and that was that. Huh? I told him over. I saw the conversation would have went on for a very long time, and he was yawning. They stayed. The people stayed, but I left. I saw my rebbe's tired. I let him go. Finished. Okay, and that's where the conversation ended.