Shabbos 4a: Rediyas HaPas, Preventing a Chiyuv Chatas, and Klutah K’mi Shehunachah

Transcript

Could be by a question. Hitiru lo l'radota. You have it? Come sit down. Come, come, come. Here, you have it. Get him a Gemara Shabbos here. Hitiru lo l'radota, kayam sheyavo lidei chiyuv chatat, o lo hitiru? Amar Rav Acha bar Abaye l'Ravina, heichi dami? What was the case? אי לא בשוגג ולא ידע. If it's b'shogeg and he didn't remember, so l'man hitiru? I mean, he doesn't know. So he didn't do it; he doesn't think he did it. He walked. No, he's not coming to ask that we have to say yes or no. He doesn't know the difference. We ask in the meila. Who are we asking a shaila about? Hitiru means the guy asked, and you're telling him. This guy isn't asking anything. You know why? He doesn't know to ask. He put it out; he's going to take it back in. There's nothing to talk about. Ela... Had the, had the... had means he chozer. Chazar v'... Ahader. He was chozer and he remembered. Chozer means he retracted. He was shogeg, but he retracted, chazar, and then he remembered. Chazar v'his... What do you mean? What do you mean? He remembers. Shabbos. He remembers. Now it's Shabbos. Now what do I do? He put it in thinking it's mutar, and then he... What do you mean? It's Shabbos now. Now I'll do this? No, no, no, no, nothing. He woke up in the middle of the night thinking that it's Sunday because he got confused, and then he put it in inside the tanur, in the bread. He opened the tanur. Not the fire. He opened the tanur and he put bread in, and it's fire there already. Now he's going to be over a chiyuv. If he's going to be over, if we let him do it, he's over an aveirah. Yeah. So what do we do? The question is, do we let him do the ... which b'emes is either d'rabbanan or d'oraisa, we spoke about it, do we let him do it in order he shouldn't do an aveirah? Because the Gemara, what's the case? If it's shogeg, so there's nothing to talk about anyway. Ela mai, chazar v'hizkir. Mi mechayev? He's not chayev anyway, meaning not chayev a korban. Rashi, chatat. You see? Mi mechayev, Rashi puts in chatat. Yeah? Why does Rashi put in the word chatat? Because issur there is. Chiyuv korban, and korban there's not. You see, the word chiyuv is what? Korban. And korban is the shayla. Issur is something else. Issur is issur. Chiyuv is chiyuv. Issur would be the issur of Shabbos. Chiyuv is always the word legabei korban, and the shayla is legabei korban, and the Gemara says chayev a korban anyway. This is pashut pshat in the Gemara. You see, mechayev. Says Rashi, what is chayev? Chatas, me'afiato, which is baking. Says the Gemara, you're not chayev anyway. Why? You need techilah v'sofo, techilah ta melachah v'sofo. Now what does Rashi want with this, techilah ta melachah v'sofo, huh? Okay. What's techilah ta melachah? Look at Rashi. Yes. Kol chayav chatos, you hear? Kol chayav chatos, ein chayavim ad shetehei techilatan shegagah v'sofan shegagah. So what does Rashi say? Techilatan v'sofah. Now first of all, notice that Rashi has a different girsa than the Gemara. The Gemara is techilatan v'sofan, and Rashi has techilah and sofah. Okay? And Rashi explains, what does that mean? Techilah ta melachah v'sofah. Now I'm asking you, what else could it mean? I mean, what does Rashi want here exactly? What is techilatan and sofan? Sofah. Of course it's melachah. I mean, what else is it? What are we talking about, techilah what? Unless maybe Rashi doesn't want you to think—what's the pshat here? The Gemara tells you, kol chayav chatos einan chayavim ad shetehei techilatan shegagah v'sofan shegagah. So Rashi, first of all, doesn't say techilatan. Rashi says techilatah. So techilatan means the melachah, because techilatan means it's going back on the chayav chatos, right? It would be more like the person, like chayav chatos, techilatan v'sofan. So Rashi's not going back on the person; it's going back on the melachah. And I guess there would be—

The havamina, that the person had to be a shogeg mitchila, I guess a shogeg with sof, but I'm not sure. Yeah, but the problem is, I mean, then he wouldn't be bringing a korban. I don't know exactly what the havamina—I mean, I don't—I mean, what's the... No, from the Gemara. Unless you learn that he had to have some shogeg in the beginning when he did it. In other words, why does Rashi have to tell me—first of all, Rashi changed the girsa, right? Obviously, because the girsa the way it is could make a mistake. What could he make a mistake? You could say techilatan was the person. The person needs, the chayav chatot needs that he should be techilatan and sofan. It's going back on the person. Says Rashi, no, it's techilatah. It's going back on the melachah. It's techilatah v'sofan, right? Now, why does Rashi say it's going back on the melachah? I guess what he wants to say is, you shouldn't think that it means that he had to be a shogeg before, and when he brings the korban, or right before he brings the korban, he has to be a shogeg again, and then someone has to tell him, by the way, you have to bring a korban, and he brings the korban. Something like that. I'm not even trying to say it. I mean, if he's a shogeg, then he's not bringing the korban, right? It says pashut on the melachah. I don't know what Rashi—unless Rashi's just saying why he changed the girsa, maybe. Well, let's Rashi just try to say why change the girsa. The reason why he changed the girsa is because it has to be going back on the, I guess. Otherwise, I don't really understand what the chiddush is yet. Of course it's techilah v'sofa of the melachah. What else and where else? Techilah v'sofa in melachah is again techilah v'sofa shel adam. The helem, then yediah, ulevsof a helem again. He didn't know that he was tamei or he didn't know that it was a beis hamikdash. The casees were that it was a helem at the end also. You could have had a case of chatos that he forgot it was Shabbos, you hear? Then all of a sudden somebody reminded him it was Shabbos, and then at the end he forgot. He came and he said, Ooh, you know something? Who said it's not allowed on Shabbos? Maybe I'm allowed to do it on Shabbos, or whatever it is. And what's going to be according to Rashi, the same thing? Because that's not true. It doesn't make a difference. It's by the melachah; it's not to do with the person. It's not like by tumah that has to do with the person. It's a din in the melachah, that the melachah had to be done shogeg from the beginning till the end. No, but even if you have mesid in the middle, but at the end, well, so far it's the same thing like Rashi, because Rashi says techilatah... No, that's... No, when Rashi says techilah v'sofa, there is no middle. Techilah v'sofa, the whole thing. It has to be the whole way through. But he remembered and forgot. So that techilah was in shogeg. So what happens in case the person had a shogeg after the melachah? He was a shogeg, you know, let's say a person was a shogeg the whole time, but he was amazed afterwards, meaning he realized afterwards he did a chilul Shabbos, and then he forgot and he took on... From the Gemara's lashon, you would say, you know what, the guy's not a shogeg v'sofa. Which isn't true in Hilchos Shabbos. It's only true in Hilchos Tumah. In Hilchos Tumah, the guy realized, he didn't realize, here's how to get to realization. Here's the halacha in shogeg in the ma'aseh. The shogeg in the ma'aseh says Rashi is pirush of the ma'aseh, which l'choira is not a chiddush unless you say what Rashi is doing is explaining why it has to be pirush of the seifa. The reason why I change the girsa of pirush of the seifa, says Rashi, it has to be because it's in the ma'aseh. Or maybe Rashi is saying a chiddush. That's what I'm telling you, and not the person. I understand. That's what Rashi explains. So that's what Rashi explains. Rashi explains, Meaning, in the aveirah, it has to be that there was never a meizid. Not pshat that the person is a shogeg. It's in the ma'aseh of the melachah shogeg. So Rashi is saying the shogeg has to be the ma'aseh was b'shogeg. Exactly. In tchilas daas it goes back on the person. In tchilas daas it goes back on the melachah, and Rashi explains the melachah. No. What defines the act? My machshavah, why I did it. But it's a definition on the act. But a definition on the act, because the question is not you. That's what I'm trying to say. Rashi doesn't want to learn that the—

The act of shogeg is a person. It's the act that you're chayav for. It's an act of shogeg or an act of mezid. Your machshavah defines the act. You're looking, you're missing the person. Now you're not so ay, ay, ay. It's not, don't think, I'm shogeg, it's not my fault. Shogeg is that this act is not mechayev a korban. What you did isn't a chiyuv korban. In order for it to be chayev a korban, there has to be a korban on a maaseh mezid. It has to be a korban on a maaseh mezid. It's not that you are chayav and how responsible you are and how much. More is to be sogeg than mezid, because the mezid, you will be... The Gemara asks for a kasha. The Gemara asks for—that's the Gemara's kasha in Makos. The opposite. A shogeg should bring a korban. You know why? He did it b'shogeg, let him bring a korban. The Gemara asks the first kasha. That's the Gemara's kasha in Makos. Remember the Gemara's kasha in Makos? Shogegi korban miskaper, v'kam chomer p'ruchim, the Gemara says. The opposite. Again, since you did it b'shogeg, you should bring a korban. L'maaseh, that's not. The halacha is, by a shogeg, you need chayav chatos is chayav on a shogeg only if it's mitchila v'ad sof. And the point of it is that the maaseh of shogeg, the maaseh of shogeg is mechayev korban; the maaseh of mezid is not mechayev a korban. Now, when the Gemara says techilasan v'sofan, even what the Gemara wants is that the person should be a shogeg mitchila v'ad sof, says Rashi that's not true, because the person is not a shogeg mitchila v'ad sof. Because eventually he gets to know about it, and when he brings the korban, he's going to know that he did something wrong. So how does he ever bring the korban then? I'm telling you, that's what I'm trying to tell you. It can't be that when you brought the korban, kol chayav chatos. The person, he is a chayav chatos. It's not pshat he has to be a shogeg and begin with chatos. It's not the person; it's not the chayav chatos. Okay, okay again. It's very simple. A person is a chayav chatos. He is not chayav chatos if he's a shogeg and begin with chatos. That's not true. His chiyuv chatos has nothing to do with his shogeg and begin with chatos. His chiyuv chatos has to do with the ma'aseh that was b'shogeg. Let's say the person did the entire ma'aseh b'shogeg, okay, and then he knows that he did something wrong, right? According to the cheshbon and the lashon of the Gemara, he's not a shogeg and begin with chatos. This chayav chatos is not a shogeg and begin with chatos. He knows now that he's amazed, right? So then he's not a shogeg anymore. So that's what Rashi again has—so that's what Rashi is trying to say. Don't use the lashon of the Gemara, which ties it to the chayav chatos, but you have to tie it to the ma'aseh, that once the ma'aseh is over, I don't care that he's amazed. That's not the issue. Whatever you're asking me, that's what Rashi is trying to say, and therefore I don't want to learn the words of the Gemara literally, because once he finished, who cares that he's amazed? Don't be misled. That's what Rashi is trying—don't be misled and think that the chayav chatos, the man, has to be a shogeg and begin with chatos, meaning even after the ma'aseh, in order for him to bring a korban, he has to be a shogeg, but that's not true. So Rashi says you have to tie it into the ma'aseh, and then I explain to you, understand that anyway the din shogeg is not the person; the din shogeg is the ma'aseh anyway. That's what I'm trying to say. Understand that every shogeg is a pshat, I'm not a shogeg, and therefore I have certain chiyuvim. The ma'aseh shogeg is mechayev a korban. The ma'aseh meizid is mechayev skila. You rather understand why it is that way. And you know what the answer is? Because the question is not the person. The issue is not that he should be a shogeg in hilchos. The melachah has to be meleches shogeg. The melachah has to be a meleches shogeg in order to be chayav korban. Not that you are a shogeg and therefore you're mechuyav korban. When you do a meleches shogeg, the onesh of a meleches shogeg is korban. Okay, and we'll soon see the significance of this. Says Rashi further, lo noda lo shegigaso...

Now notice that Rashi uses lashon, which is really helem ... Now, Rashi is contradicting this. So what Rashi should have said is, what Rashi should have said is that, Lo yada loi is mashma ki'ilu there's a shogeg in the person. That's right. But of course there is a shogeg in the person on a melachah; it doesn't happen by itself. No, I'm just trying to explain to you, by tumah the pshat is lo yada, he didn't know that he did something wrong. The issue is not that if he knew he did something wrong or not. The issue is this was done b'shogeg. Yeah, because he didn't know that he did something wrong. On melachah. That's not the point. He's missing the point. The whole point is not this. That's what Rashi wants. You're learning that—it's obvious that he found out later. No, no. That's right. Lo yada is more than that. Right, it's not—it's not he did to him. The word is not the person. Yes, I know that. I don't need Rashi for that. I don't need Rashi for that. I don't need Rashi. The fact is that he found out later; I don't need Rashi for. No, what's the problem with this ...? It's not the adam. Again, it's the shogeg of the melachah. What's that lo yada loi? It's as if, like by helem tumah, you use the same lashon. You know why? Because in the middle of melachah he will know this gigaso, it's become already melachah, techilatan ... You don't know ... You'll give him so well. What is the word, lo? What do you want from him? What do you want to do with him? Because I'm do with him. The love that I can give, he's not going to get from his wife. His wife... I hope I scream and yell and I... That's not the type of love he's looking for. Listen carefully. Lo noda. Okay. When you chazer, you'll understand clearly. The lo noda love is completely not l'maaseh, completely not l'maaseh. Here's I'm do with him. Let's say there's a certain halacha, a halacha in him that he has to be a shogeg, a chilul Shabbos, like yediah to tumah, there has to be, I don't know. Okay, let's go weiter. Now, says the Gemara further... ...kasher... ...kasher... ...lo pashut... ...business... business... ...ze kasher. Yeah, let's go weiter. This is not a... He's not chayav anyway. Ela b'meizid. You have to say that the sugya was he put it in b'mezid. Says the Gemara, if it's mezid, so why say korban shevei chiyuv chatat? It should say korban shevei issur skילה bai lei. Amar Rav Shila, loi lam b'shogeg. U'leman? L'acherim. The others. The others, says the Gemara, what do you mean for others? It means somebody else should take it out. Says the Gemara, ...what, you do it on purpose? You should save me from a sin? ...The man says... The man says in the Gemara. Okay. And I know that you're doing something wrong, so maybe I should take it out for you, so you shouldn't be over... I'll take it out for you because I know that you're doing something wrong. You don't know for sure, but I seem to be over... so okay, I'll take it out. ...can we let you take it out? Somebody else. To take out this bread. There's not a lav ... Maybe I would take out this bread, like, to save me from the issur of ... Maybe I tell you. That's the whole thing. I tell you that again, I'm mechayev. That's the whole Gemara. Okay, the Ramban tells you, and you stop it right away. You just did techilah, you didn't do sofah. After the Ramban, you're patur. Comes along the Ramban and says, You know what? I have an eitzah, a very good eitzah. What happens if I tell you? Why does the acheirim have to do it? Tell him, go. ... Go take care of your problem. You're going to be chayav ... Let's see the Rishonim inside.

What's the difference between him and the other? Yeah. אי לימא בשוגג. What? Huh? No. The Gemara: אי לימא בשוגג, ולא איתקיל למידי. The Gemara says by shogeg, the only case that could be is acherim could do it. That's the only case, right? And the Gemara wants to know, acherim, they know, ... מהו קושיית הראשונים? That's the suffix. Really, I can open the oven and let the other guy do it to save me from an issur, and I'm not going to have a... That's the suffix. That's the suffix. שואל הרמבן, ... מהו קושיית הראשונים ... Why can't it be a case that what? That they came and they told him, Let the acherim come. Say, Listen, you're a shogeg. You're a shogeg. Now go take it out. Don't take. So therefore, what do you have? You have that the sefer was b'meizid. This is Rishaim's kasha. Let's see the Ramban. Comes along the Ramban, and he says like this: Yes, I understand. You're right. Here, you're right. I'm not telling you. Acherim, what do you have to ask after the Gemara's kasha? Okay, so let's see the Ramban. He says like this. He gives the kasha. Some have a kasha ... You're right. He's a shogeg, matchila v'ad sof. He don't know from nothing. But could be it's talking about that somebody saw him and said, Rideh ota. Take it out. Here, Dilma, chazi lei inshi, amru lei, Rideh ota. Let's be rodeh ota. This is the kasha of the Rishonim. Why couldn't it be that the acheirim, others, came and told him, You better go and take care of this before you'll have a problem? Ah, so then he's reminded him. Meila, what? They're trying to say from an instance. In other words, what's the Gemara's kasha when the Gemara says shogeg, he's a shogeg, he's not anyway what to be rodeh? You know what the case is? When they come to ask, should we tell him? Should we tell him? He's a shogeg. The question is, he'll be chayav a korban if he keeps on like this. Says the Gemara, he's a shogeg, he doesn't know to take it out. Yes, the question is, should we tell him to take it out? You hear? You can attach the oi. Dilma airi b'hizid, d'lav b'shogeg d'korban. You can have a case where you were a shogeg here in the kares, and meila, when you're shogeg in the kares, the sugya makes sense. You have a regular shogeg, a regular shogeg, right? Ay, the question is, he doesn't know to ask. Yeah, but the צד is, he's a... he knows that it's not allowed. He knows that it's not allowed. So why does the Gemara have to say that if it's shogeg, it wouldn't happen? Huh? He's a lav; he knows what he's doing. He's just not chayav korban. What's the nafka mina? He wants to know when a person does this shogeg. The Gemara says if he's a shogeg, then he doesn't know to take it out. He does. He knows to take it out because he knows that it's not allowed on Shabbos. The Gemara says he's a shogeg. The first line of the Gemara. The Gemara says here... Yeah, the ... here. It's like, ... There's nobody asking. Yeah, maybe he knows, and he's not allowed to do it. No. Because he doesn't. Right. The question is, why does, says the Ramban, why do you need that to be the case of Rebibi? Why does that have to be the case of shogeg, and you have a question? Say that's not the case of shogeg. The case of shogeg, we knew he's not doing what he's doing. The only thing is, he's called a shogeg because לגבי ... he's a shogeg. Who says he doesn't know it's asur? You said he does know it's asur, so the question is, why is he asking? The Gemara says.

The Maharsha says it's not possible that a shogeg would come to ask. He says you have a shogeg that would come to ask, but he's a shogeg on the kares. Shogeg on the kares, he didn't know you're chayav kares for it. So the kares wouldn't be there, but he would come to ask, I don't want to be over the lav. Since he doesn't know it's wrong, he's not going to ask. Because we understood shogeg, he doesn't know it's wrong. Says the Ramban, just because the word shogeg is used doesn't mean he doesn't know it's wrong. The word shogeg, he means he doesn't know it's the kares, but he knows it's wrong, and that's a she'eilah: can I come and take out not to be over the lav? That's the Ramban's question. Says the Ramban, The lav krusha hi klal. Demashma lei, d'mishum chiyuv chat... kari teiru lei, mishum d'achlei chilul Shabbos. Maybe the Gemara. Says the Gemara, we're not afraid of chilul Shabbos. I don't care that you were mechalel Shabbos; it doesn't bother me. What am I afraid of? You'll bring a korban chatat. That bothers me, and the question: should we save you from a korban? Mimeila, both ta'anos fall away. Are you listening, or this is not for you? Either case, there's no chatat. A number one is, when I came and I told you in the middle, you should do it. There won't be a chiyuv chatos, because you became a ready mezid before it's over. There's no sofek. There's no chatos anyway, so there's no reason anyway to be matir. There's no reason to be matir, because once you know you're a mezid if it's shogeg, and once you're a mezid with the sofek, we don't care. We don't care. We don't care. We're giving you chil Shabbos. The sugya of the Gemara... you can't be chayav a skילה because you're chayav a shogeg. ... בסוף. You're not chayav סקילה, you're not chayav כרת. You're חייב מיתה. ... right? We don't care. Don't be ... We're not going to let you come and take out a ... for chilul Shabbos. We're not interested. Let's be the Ramban. We're not interested. Mind you, there's no korban anyway. Once there's no korban, there was never a hava amina that you should be matir l'... Once there's no korban, there's no question if you're allowed to be ... Of course you're allowed to be ... Why? Why? That's the ... tells the Ramban. ... The Ramban is saying that the only thing we care about is something. I mean, and obviously that's not what it is, ... For some reason, we're more scared about the korban than we're scared about the issur Shabbos. Maybe ... So today's shiur is going to explain this. Now, yes. So question number one is, the Gemara in Makos, you hear? Iyleima b'shogeg, Gemar yedua l'mani tiru. Mahu? K'sherishonim al zeh shekamah Gemara tiru, v'lo nizkaru l'acheirim. What does that mean? He doesn't remember, but it should be that what? That acheirim who saw him were going to tell him. Mahu tirutz Rabbanan al kushya? Now, and I write it down, you know, I pretty much have it there in front of you. Shesofeir b'zadon, u'meileh patur mi'karban. And meileh what? Just add in. And the sugya is worried about, mahu, but the Torah is the same from korban, that's all. We don't care about his chilul Shabbos. Huh? They tell him, but that's not the sugya. He's not going to be... he's not going to be... anymore. Finished. Too late already. There was never a shaylah that he can be... He can't be... because he's not chayav korban anyway. ... chiyuv lav, he didn't... it's still there. Don't be... from the lav. ... Okay, now. Mahu yotzei mefurash, maranban. Hayim matiru af k'dei l'hatiru mi'guf haissur, o rak mi'karban? And the answer is, if you notice the little lamed there, I cheated for you. You see the little lamed there? The lamed is light. It's not a she'eilah. Only for korban. No, I wrote the dafka lamed. If you notice, there's a little chaf at the end. Notice a little chaf at the second one? Also here. The lamed and the chaf. One is a...

One is loy, and one is ken. One is loy is black. You saw? Loy is lamed. I did a lot of hints for you. I try to make—listen, I try to make it easy for you. Lamed. You see the lamed? Lamed is loy, and the chaf in the next one is going to be ken. Now let's see the next one. Harashba, only the karban. According to the Ramban, this sugya is karban. And of course the question is going to be why. Why? And the answer is only for korban. Loy means that is a gufa issur, not korban. The answer is loy, only for korban. I think you should have just the same, and I just want you to—rak mi'korban. Next. So much better than nothing. It's going to be so good. ... The what? When the Gemara says—Gemara says, Gufa, ... hitiru lo ... kodem sheyavi chatas, lo hitiru. So what does the Gemara say? Heichi dami is what? What's heichi dami? What's whose case? Oh, the Rashba learns what's Rebbi's case talking about, which means I just want to know, Rebbi, when you said the words kodem sheyavi chatas, what did you mean? D'hainu, says the Rashba, that be'emes I don't care chiyuv chatas or not chiyuv chatas. It's not a question that the Gemara would rather have it shogeg because of the chiyuv chatas. According to the Ramban, the reason why the Gemara says chiyuv chatas is only because the Gemara is worried about korban. According to the Rashba, the reason why the Gemara says shogeg, it's only because the words Rebbi don't make sense. He has to say those words. I'm telling you, by the way, those words don't make sense, because Rebbi said the words kodem sheyavi chatas, so I'm asking, not on the halacha. The halacha would be true either way for an issur. Moi, very. The Rashba learns like this, that the question of the Gemara— He chose, listen, he wants, he likes it. What do you want? Let me tell you something. This guy needs a chiropractor. I save him fifty to a hundred dollars a week to a chiropractor, and he doesn't still know that soon I'm going to come collect the money from him. The question of the Gemara is not on halacha. It has to be a case of shogeg. And the Ramban's understanding, because we're only worried about shogeg. Why are we only worried about shogeg? Because we're only worried about korban. The Rashba learns, no, that the reason why we talk about shogeg is only because of Rabbebi's words of kodem sheyavo lichiyuv chatat. But in halacha, we don't care about the shogeg. It could have been a meizid too with the same ballgame. Pshat, because according to the Rashba, it's not only to be chayav from a chiyuv korban, but also to be chayav from a chiyuv issur. Pshat, the Rashba is very simple. What's the difference? I mean, what's the difference? Why should we let a guy be over d'rabbanan for d'oraita, which is the sugya we thought? If you learn the pats d'oraita, so we spoke about the Ramban, the Rif, and, l'havdil, Hashem. But pashut we learn it's d'rabbanan. And once it's d'rabbanan, so why can't we say, 'Lo tavaro d'rabbanan,' k'dei shelo tavaro d'oraita? So the Rashba is gevalt. The Rashba is saying that the whole Gemara is only what? It's only because of Rabbebi's words. Rabbebi, you said those words, kodem sheyavo lichiyuv chatat. What are you talking about, shogeg? But in halacha, does it have to be a case of shogeg? Why not? Because it could be by a meizid without a korban also. We don't care about the korban. It's not korban that we're afraid of. You know what we're afraid of? We're afraid of you could be oiver an issur there, actually. Yeah, you with me, Ephraim? But still, we have a question that, like a question with the Rambam. We have the question: razba, svara, how we learn, razba, we have questions. Why is the Rambam's question? You're missing the point. We don't care that there could be a case that could be oiver an issur. We don't care. The Ramban is just giving you a case where it could be a shogeg and a meizid. We don't care. That wasn't the question. The question was the words, חיוב חטאת. Yes. So the Ramban's question is not a question on that anymore. The point to razba, the Ramban's question is not a question. Razba also regarding the rabbinic words, but halacha, it actually could be a shogeg, where I told them in the middle.

Rabbanan's case is a good case, according to Rabbi Bibi, according to the Gemara, according to the Rashba. You understand? Yeah? Ready? I understand, but he learned at the end of the sugya, you have to go through the whole Rashba. The Rashba learned that the sugya is only on the words of Rabbi Bibi. So if it's only on the words of Rabbi Bibi, then Rabbanan's kasha falls off. Why? Because in halacha you could tack a bi'ah that I told him in the middle. It's just that why did you use the words ...? That's all the Gemara is asking. The question is, what's the svara of the Ramban that we don't care about the ... Shabbos and we only care about ... Now, well, he broke it. Okay. So if you notice, I put ... right? ... whatever, you don't follow with me the sheet. Take mine. ... What's the svara? That's the question. This, this, come on, come on, come on. Look at the question of the Ramban. Why is it that we don't care about the ... only care about the ...? Now, what is the svara to be mechalek, no? Yeah, okay. Now, ... the Gemara, v'chi omrim lo l'adam, chatei k'dei sheyizkeh chaveircha. ... The Ramban is about to get kashya. Yeah? The Ramban says, what are you talking about? We find all over that we tell a person, chatei k'dei sheyizkeh chaveircha. We find it all over. Okay, I'll show you. I'll show you. ... beautiful. He says like this: ... I understand. ... We're learning in Eruvin, perek ... meichalel chaver le'eved isur kalila. It's better that a chaver should do a small issur, v'lo le'eved ama ha'aretz issur rabba. Better an am ha'aretz should do a big issur. You know why? Because when an am ha'aretz does a big issur, aveirah goreres aveirah. You know, from one thing to the next thing to the next thing. ... Tavel. To eat the extra tavel in order. U'vafki shani hasam, shaliach shel chaver hu oseh, she'omer lo, Leilechach kolan zu tehei meteinah. The Gemara says over there, this is a Ramashi over there, that the case is a different type of a case. He can't bring a raya from over there, that the chaver, right, that the chaver told him to do it. Okay, now, it's not important. V'kashya luhu, ha midi b'psachim. Shakol yisrael over al aseh d'hashlamah, u'makriv korban min hachutz l'kippurim ba'arvei Pesachim, k'dei shelo yavo chaveiro l'yedei issur kares. Because the Gemara rules, hashlamah means, ala hashlin kol hakorbanos kulah. The last korban has to be a korban tamid. The halacha is, you can go and be makriv a korban l'chutz l'kippurim after that, so the guy should come bring his korban Pesach. Plus, you tell the kohen to be over aveirah, hashlamah. The last korban, the last korban has to be a korban tamid. The Gemara says the last korban has to be a korban tamid. This guy came and he brought a korban mechusar kippurim that he has to bring to make himself tahor. So the kohen goes and is over a lo ta'ashlin kol hakorbanos kulah. He makes the korban mechusar kippurim for the guy so he shouldn't be over the issur kares. Of, of, of, of korban Pesach. Listen to what he says. The ikar lameimar, now listen to what he's... Shani kohanim, d'shluchei Yisrael shavin rachmana. Kohen is not him; a kohen is you. Where do we... where you, you can't do an aveirah for the other person. Who's doing an aveirah? But the pshat is he's there to do the aveirah for you. He's your shliach. He's there for you. Right, you're bad. Right, you're bad. That's right. You can't do it. Why should I go? Why should I sit there for you? Why should I go and sit there for you even? I say, kohanim, that they're there for that. They're shluchei d'Rachmana, and the whole thing, korbanos of them is for Klal Yisrael to do what they have to go and do it. Now listen to the second paragraph. Shani hidbik, pat b'tanur b'shogeg, d'lav issur hu, she'efshar lo liskaper b'chatas, v'ein rediyah ela zechus lo sheyipater mi'korban.

Again, read it again. Here. Shavi hivi patur b'shogeg, the lav issur, she'efshar lo liskaper b'chatos, v'ein ridyato ela zechut lo sheyipater min hakarban. Here you're going to do an aveirah, a real aveirah. So there we say you're mechuyav to do things to save your friend. But here you have a kaparah, you have a way out. Go do it. Go have a kaparah. I don't know if the ridyat ha-pat, you should not have to bring a korban. Very simple Ramban. You like the Ramban? You like it? Come, so if you read it, read the Ramban. Go ahead, read. Yeah? He brings two cases of Shas where we tell you, listen, you go do an aveirah in order to save your friend. So how come here the Gemara says we don't do that? Says the Ramban, two terutzim. Nu, teretz number one: what do you mean, a raya from korban? That's not called somebody else. That's not called somebody else for you. They're you. When they're makriv korbanos, who are they makriv for? For you. So therefore they have to go be makriv to you to save you from an aveirah. That's their job. They can't say, Well, I don't want. They're too bad on you. What do you mean, you don't want? You're there for me, and you have to save me from an aveirah. Okay, that's the first one. Second teretz: Hacha nami, here we're talking about korban, and korban is a privilege to bring, to bring your korban, like he said. Remember you said this last time? I told you, wait. Good, what you did a cheshbon for korban. I'm happy. Go bring your korban. Why should I stop you from bringing korban? Yeah, I should go do an issur d'rabbanan to stop you from bringing a korban? Go bring your korban. What about the issur? Perhaps an issur. Maybe you're not doing it for the korban; you're doing it to save the guy from an issur. Are you saving him from a korban, or are you saving him from an issur also? I would stop you and I'll go into another issur. In this case, yeah. Matt told you now, in case that the Ramban said that it's only saving you from a korban. If you're saving him, you shouldn't be able to set up tefillin, no? I want the answer. The Ramban is what shetasay, because the Ramban doesn't care about the issur. The sugya was never that you should go do retiyah to stop the issur. The sugya was always— We're not holding you. The whole sugya was— We're not holding you. Korban. No, we didn't answer it, yeah. Answer what question? Why don't you— We're not holding you. What I'm showing you is that this Ramban, this Ramban shows you how little we care about the issur. It's only about a korban. A korban is a privilege. Why should we save you from a korban? Go bring it. Yeah, but you're going to be over an issur. What do you mean? We don't care about that. No. I'm not holding you yet. I'm showing you, I'm showing you, but I'm showing you how far it goes. In the pshat of today's yischa chaveirecha, af al pi— it's a good thing. Don't do it. You should bring a korban. You have to be over an issur. What are you talking about? Yeah, you got it? Actually, we have the teretz. Everybody's dreaming about the teretz. What are you talking about? All we have is that we don't tell you to be rozeh. Only for korban, not for lav. Here we're telling you even further. Go, go make sure you're over the issur so you can bring a korban. Yeah, but you're being over an issur. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? I'm saying, but I'll show you how far the shitatos goes. You want to see how far the shitatos goes? What? Why is it not an issur? Okay, so you'll think about it later. Now, b'kitzur, what do we have over here? Ma hu tirutz haRamban l'kushyato? Go ahead, let's, next. Nu, ma hu tirutz haRamban l'kushyato? Go ahead, next, next, next. Let's move, move, move. I don't know. Tell me, is there a college name coming up? No, no. ... korban l'menasah ... mitzvos. ... chaveiro chayav k'dei l'hatzilo. Nu? Right? That by korban it's l'hatzil, but here it's... okay, now, the ... haRamban now, hu l'shitasei. Why is it l'shitasei? Because the Ramban only cares about what? The korban and not the... Okay.

Let's see the Tosafos. The Tosafos is a maskil ella. Let's take a look at Tosafos. Let's see what Tosafos... The ella, no? ... Teima, lisni eima lidei issur chatat, ... kivan d'amar b'savar kaiman d'issur skila. What's bothering Tosafos? Why say chiyuv? Just say the word issur. Obviously, what does Tosafos hold? We don't care about the chatos itself; we care about the issur. I see the answer to the question, but Tosafos is bothered. They should say the word issur. According to the Ramban—but according to the Ramban, it could never say issur. We don't care about the issur; we care about the korban. Tosafos is clear that we don't care about the issur. Tosafos says, I don't know what you're talking about. Why do you say chiyuv korban? Read the Tosafos now, at the ella. Don't say issur. Why does it say chiyuv chatat? Why does the Gemara say, how is he חייב? It should say issur chatat. He doesn't want that the word should be in the Gemara. He can't come with chiyuv; it can't come with issur chatat. What's the difference? Because Tosafos is learning that the problem is not the korban anymore. The problem is the issur, like the Rashba, not the Ramban. I'm just showing you facts. I want you to understand the facts. No, the question of Ramban is, so why didn't the Gemara ask, let us tell the person go... Yeah, that's the question. Yeah, but Ramban is going... Why does it say lidechiu, which is ...? You hear like the Rashba, point of Ramban, it's a kasha. It's kakachi, it's kakachi. This, we're gonna go one step further. Let's take a look. Ma diyakta meRashi. Now I want you to see. Now I showed you a Tosafos. Now I want to see Tapir Rashi. What does Rashi hold? Look at the Rashi. ... Rashi, the dibur hamaschil, lacheirem. Go out, vechatei, issur ka. ... chavrecha oinish chamur. What's the case over here? What's the word oinish? What oinish we're talking about? We're talking about aveiros, I thought. Then why say oinish? Is it issur chiyuv? Chayav from Rashi is mashma chiyuv. Problem is, korban is never an oinish anyway. Korban is not an oinish. So it's not korban, it's ... That's why I think, you know what he means? Issur that will bring you to an oinish. He means this. Every ... free up, trust me, biggest yeshivos. Look at the words. Rashi brings down, ... chatei, it's a ... that the person should be ... issur ka. So what does he mean by ...? So then you should come and say oinish because he's, in the sugya the style is not the issur, the style is the ... Karban. Ah, oines. That's my question to you. That's what I'm saying, it's two steps. I'm showing you two steps. First, well, Rashi shouldn't have said this. Why is Rashi oines? So maybe because he learns like the Ramban, that the sugya is karban. But then I don't understand, since when is karban in English? Ela mai, he doesn't mean the karban, but he means the issur that will bring you to a karban, to English. And therefore he talks and learns like who? Like Rashi, like Tosfos, and the... If you bring it to the ones, how? You do an issur. But maybe... but okay, but the issur is not an ones. Sure, you get an issur shegagos one, you know, how are you going to pay for it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. One thing for sure, the diyuk is not... So Rashi is medayek, that's why into the words of the Gemara about the chiyuv. That's what I would have said, but then if it's chiyuv, then he shouldn't have said the word onesh, because karban is not an onesh. But he's going on the...

So that has to be. He's not on the issue and the chiyuv. It's not like the Rambam. It's not like the Rambam. He's not ... Yes? No. He's not ... And he's not. The ... is way on the karban. Only it's not a ... It's both something. It's both ... Only has to be the issur that will bring you to an onesh. It has to be that he needs to say that will bring you an onesh. The issur that will bring you to an onesh. So obviously he means to type this. Now, l'maskana, says Gemara. Good, no? D'val, Rashi, so the dikduk Rashi. Solid. Rashi said that I do an issur kal, you should do an issur chamur. What's not the onesh? What's he אומר? The onesh even needs to the karban, but then he should have said the word onesh. You know what he means? An issur that will bring you to an onesh. You see that he learned the sugya is what? Like the question is an answer. I don't know. I have no, I have no. There is, there is, there is like ... So then is it davka, lav davka? According to the Reb Ashi now, the Gemara says that the Gemara is really talking about meizid. And the question is, on a meizid, do we try to save you from a sekilah? Now let me ask you a question. You with me? What about taka, l'dot, l'halacha, to save you from a chatas? What? And the Gemara says that it's talking about what? Meizid. Meizid and sekilah. What's taka the halacha l'gabei chatas? The whole sekilah we said it only because of the lashon of the Gemara. The lashon doesn't fit, right? So let's tackle a halacha l'maaseh according to Rav Ashi, yes. Oh, so the Ramban learns maybe that it's not the issur; it's always the—now the chumras what bothers us. My question is after the Gemara, when the Gemara says l'maskana that it's tumah meises and we're afraid of skila, let's halacha l'maaseh, l'gabei shogeg and korban, would we let you also for shogeg and korban? Because Rav Ashi's just saying because of the lashon doesn't make sense, but other than that, could be the halacha is true. Huh? According to the Ramban, you could say, like, we care about skila, and we also care about what? The Neiri learns the opposite. The Neiri learns it's only skila. So become meises, meises and skila, pshat. In other words, there's a chiluk between meises and shogeg. The shogeg issur is less than the meises issur, right? So for meises issur we'll be machmir; for shogeg issur we won't. So you have to see what the problem is. If you learn the issue is the korban, then you can come and say like this: skila, yeah, so maybe korban also. Or maybe not. Or we say no, only for skila because we don't want the guy to get skila. Yeah, yeah. Mashenkein when the Gemara says meises, then it could be the pshat is meises because the aveirah is a chomerdik aveirah. So where the aveirah is less, maybe we won't tackle only machmir. But he doesn't say. This is not—this is not. All I'm saying is there's a machlokes here in the Rishonim. What's taka the din b'shogeg and kedei l'hatzilo? According to the Ramban, Ramban says that we don't fall off with the card. We don't fall off from that. Maseh kein, okay. Halacha l'maaseh is that after the Gemara says meizid, we don't know what's the din by shogeg. Is the Gemara saying meizid and not shogeg, or is the Gemara saying in the case of Rabbi, the word is meizid? So let's take a look how the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch pasken. You going? You have to go? Okay. Keep on reading. No, shachach. Oh, keep focused. Shachach v'hivlig... b'Shabbos... nizkar... mutar... קודם שיתפ... He doesn't read the meizid case. Okay, that's the meizid.

Right? The Rambam doesn't pasken like Rav Ashi, meaning he's not gores Rav Ashi. But in the case of pat, hibik pat is what? Shochach. The case is shochach. In other words, Rav Ashi says mezid; he just doesn't—he may believe it never happened. In Shulchan Aruch, right, so the question is, when the Gemara says mezid, are we falling away from shogeg, or it's also shogeg, or it's also shogeg? So you see the Rishonim argue. Some Rishonim say it goes together, that even after we say mezid, it means shogeg too, because the whole reason why we said mezid is only because of the lashon of Rabbi. Not two cases. Either if you're a shogeg or if you are a mezid, it makes no difference. The halachah is the same halachah. Why does Rav Ashi say mezid? Only because of the lashon, right? So some Rishonim say that shogeg will have the same halachah l'maaseh. The Rambam is not gores Rav Ashi. The Shulchan Aruch not only is gores Rav Ashi, he brings both. He says, okay, he brings both. In reisha and seifa. When he brings this halachah, Rabbi is only of the lashon, and Rabbi is ma'aseh. Okay, you got it? Okay. Now, what's the mekor that the Maggid Mishneh brings for the Rambam's shitah? Maggid Mishneh brings Rashi. Says the Maggid Mishneh, you know why the reason why he says it? Because of—yeah, what's the mekor? Where did the Rambam get shochach? The Gemara says, Shaka. We can't say Rav Shizbi. Come to the Lechem Mishneh, it says, What are you talking about? The Gemara is chayiv from it. Come to the Lechem Mishneh. How do you understand? ... So let me explain to you what's wrong. You hear? Sure. ... But then you're saying that it shouldn't be baked. As long as it doesn't bake, he's not chayiv. So now listen to me. Obviously you misunderstood, hello? Obviously you misunderstood. When the Maggid Mishneh says it's mefurash in the sugya, what was the Lechem Mishneh arguing on? You know what sugya he's talking about? Notice, does he bring daf daled or does he bring daf gimmel? Which Gemara does the Maggid Mishneh bring to support the Rambam? Daf daled. Not the Lechem Mishneh, the Maggid Mishneh. No, Maggid also daled. No, gimmel and daled. Gimmel. The guys didn't learn good. Chak of, this is not for you, obviously, huh? אילו יצא, אילו יצא. Tell me, you give shiurim, I want to come to your shiurim. Now listen carefully, you hear? Except, are you with me? You're not with me, not with me. Again, very simple. You gave up your... Meaning, when the Gemara says Rav Ashi's she'eilah, are we falling away from shogeg, or it's only because of Rav Bibi's lashon, you have to run, huh? Okay. I'm trying, I'm trying my best here. I'm trying. Where do you get it from? This is Rav Ashi. says from a mazes. Says the Maggid Mishneh, so what he should have answered, he should have answered is like the Rishonim, that this Rav Ashi is only because of the lashon, not because of the halacha. He doesn't say it. He says the mekor is not daled; the mekor is gimel. Gimel, gimel. Frankel Rambam, so the Frankel Rambam is wrong. Here, this is gimel. Tell Frankel to reprint this Rambam. It's the gimel that's the sugya. And you know what the sugya is? He stuck his hand outside. The question is, should we matir him or not to bring it back in? What's that sugya? That's kotzem sheyavo lidei... In Rebbi, we have a teretz. What's Rebbi's teretz? Rebbi says it's talking about sheilah. But the original she'eilah that we came to answer is not talking about a sheilah. ... Tell Frankel Rambam, you know, write him a letter. Write Frankel.

You know any emails to heaven? Tell me something. Am I right or he's right? Heaven.com. What the... Huh? I know you're wrong. Why? Because you're wrong. Because there is... Huh? It's not gonna help you. It's פשוט made it up. Here, the question is amazing. Rebashi says, תומת מת. So what does he want with this Gemara? What do you see in this Gemara? Nothing. You don't see anything in this Gemara. And what's the Maggid Mishneh talking? What's he say? I don't understand. Rebashi says to you, the only thing is, you come and say, because we know the lashon, he just... He just come and say Rebashi does is not really true. He's going back on gimel. He's going back on the sugya of gimel and daled. He means to say between gimel and daled, you know we're coming to answer, פשיטא, דאתיא לחוד, שוגג, מעלמא דחיוב חטאת, there it's dafka. There it's really dechiuv chatos, and the sugya over here is coming to answer the sugya over there. Why does the Lechem Mishneh want? מה אין הוציאו מן הסוגיה? You only prefer sugya. What does he want? Okay, okay. This Gemara says clearly that דין by שוגג. What's the case? What's the original case? Rebbi only came because of what case? If he stuck his hand out b'shogeg, he wants to bring it back in, חייב חטאת. So what's the original sugya? חיוב חטאת. So don't say too much shogeg. Too much shogeg, ask me too much shogeg. That's what the Maggid Mishneh means, gimel and daled, between the sugya of gimel and daled, the original case was chatos. He says, I don't understand where he got it. This is what the Lechem Mishneh says. What do you mean? He got it from the Gemara. No, he says it's very פשוט. I saw the Ben Yehoyada, he brings from Rav Avad, very interesting Rav Avad. The Rav Avad says like this: What's the pshat why we only care about korban and we don't care about... He says a big ... You know what the answer is? Once the issur is done already, it's too late. On the side of shogeg, it happened already. What's the problem? The problem is shogeg, right? Ovar, it happened already. Why are we not ... that he finishes? Because whatever you did, you did already. It was shogeg. I mean, you started already. True. What's the problem? Whatever it is, it's called like ... Okay. Right. Almost done. It's a ma'aseh; it was done already. There's nothing to save you from. We don't care. The korban comes at the end. The ... comes at the end for ... saves the guy. Saves the guy. You never find a shogeg. There's nothing to save him from. It happened already. Again, when the person put the dough in, okay, what are we trying to save from putting the dough in? He did it already. Every shogeg, when you put it in, it happens already. The act happened. The only thing we can try to save you from is the korban, korban skila. Now, he starts to bring his hand in. The melachah is not finished yet. That's sugya that you're matir to bring it in. Even to save him from a korban is not a raya to our sugya, to the melachah mishnah. That's what the Lechem Mishneh means. What are you talking about? There's a sugya where it's not finished yet. Here the sugya is that it's finished already. You put it in, it's finished. The melachah is done already. It's done. The question is, will the chiyuv chatas come, or will the chiyuv korban come, or will this— the melachah is done already. So the Ravan says on that, once it's done, we don't tell you to undo it. Mashenkin, קודם שיבוא לידי מלאכה, before you get the melachah done, there, says the Ravan, we would just say do it in order to save yourself, even from a shogeg. So meileh, the Gemara over there is a case that it was done or not done, not done yet. So meileh, that's what the Lechem Mishneh says. I don't know where the Maggid Mishneh got it from.

The Rambam's case is pas b'tanur. His raya, he says the Maggid Mishneh is from where? From the case of yadi bifnim, yadi bachutz. Says the Lechem Mishneh, I ain't understanding what are you talking about. It's a different case. So different case. There the issur is done already. Over there, the issur wasn't—the melachah wasn't even done yet. Well? No shaychus, no shaychus. Here, tell me something. Commit, commitment. This is what the Maggid Mishneh says. Comes the Lechem Mishneh, I don't know what you're talking about. What do you see from here? So what's bothering him? Bothering him is that still years, the issur wasn't done yet. What's the reason why we don't care about shogeg? The reason why we don't care about shogeg, says the Rav Avan, is because the melachah was done already. Here the melachah wasn't done yet. When you stuck your hand out, half was done; the other half wasn't done yet. So therefore, the shaylah: should we let you take care of the problem and you shouldn't come lidei melachah? But over here, the pas is already in the tanur, and the Rav Avan says once done, done already. That's what the Rav Avan says, the melachah is done already. Once the melachah is done—yes. So we just say, we don't care. We're just saving you now from a chiyuv, that's all. Because he argues with this. He doesn't care. Good? Yeah, I understand, but since it's not kosher, you do the issur yet. You do the issur yet. You want something? Huh? That's one thing. It's not one thing. You're not going to took me to figure it out. Wait, I spent one time. It took me five minutes, I worked. Once I saw the Rav Avan, I understood what— I didn't understand this Lechem Mishneh. What's he talking about? Can I quote the Ravvada? He brings this Ravvani. What's pshat for yesoid? It's only when the melacha is needed. Push the Ravva. He brings the lashon of the Ravva. It's open, the Ravva. Okay, my boys, I teach you well. I teach you well. Va'beinon akirah v'hanachah me'al gabei makom daled al daled. You need akirah and hanachah. And over here the problem is, ein lecha, because the yad of an ani. Well, al kol panim, the yad that he put it into can't be daled al daled. No man has a hand big enough to be daled al daled. Even oid mechalbash comes, his hand's one daled, but maybe, maybe oid. Al kol panim, most people don't have daled al daled. Answers the Gemara. Answers the Gemara: Ha mani? Rabbi Akiva. D'amar, va'beinon makom arba al arba. You don't need it. Now we learned, Rabbi Akiva is mechayev. Says the Gemara, why? Kluta k'mi shehuncha damya. Rabbanan savri, lo amrinan kluta k'mi shehuncha damya. Says the Gemara, lemeimar d'pshita lei l'Rabba d'bekluta k'mi shehuncha damya, u'vesof chatzera pligi? So obviously what's it talking about? It's chatzer and the machlokes is kluta. V'mibai bai lei l'Rabba? This was a question to Rabba. D'bai Rabba, l'mata mi pligi? Bah pligi, kluta k'mi shehuncha damya; Rabbanan savri lo amrinan kluta k'mi shehuncha damya. Or, no, dilma, what? Maybe kula alma lo פליגי. Zerika moishit, oi dilma l'maalah miyud פליגי. U'vah פליגי, v'Akiva סבר pina. Okay, you did the Gemara. I hope you all did the Gemara. You did all the Gemara? Don't tell me you didn't do all this Gemara, no. See, did you know the Gemara a little bit? Okay, so let me tell you like this. What we'll do is I'll give you a little introduction to this whole sugya, okay? And we'll see if it tells—come here, come here, come here, don't run away. This might be very interesting for you. There's nothing to run away. It could be very interesting, just because I just read 16, 17 lines of Gemara, which you're supposed to prepare on your own. Don't worry about it. Make believe it's not here. The bottom line is, in the sugya called kluta k'mi shehuncha dami, that something that's mid-air, in the air, do we call it k'mi shehuncha? So the Acharonim—and when I say Acharonim, I don't mean Acharonim, mefarshim later down, some of the Rishonim, it's talking about the sugya—learn two ways. They learn two dinim. You see? Mahu shtei dinim shegadru b'air, Acharonim zaal b'din kluta k'mi shehuncha dami? And the answer is—

It's bichlal not huncha, but you don't need huncha. Who said you need huncha? What's nogea to Hilchos Shabbos? Kluta is good enough. Yeah. As long as it went mireshus l'reshus, who said you need akirah v'hanacha bichlal? Where does it come from? It says in the Torah, al yotzi. Where does the word akirah— It's a great question, no? Yeah. Yotzi is to bring in, yotzi is to bring out. Nothing. Who said you have to need hanacha? Sheyeitze mimakom l'makom. What's— explain. Here, take this out for me. That means I have to put it down? As long as I took it out, it's called taking out. What's your question now? Question number one: Mahu, shtei dinim shegadru u'biyaru haAcharonim zal b'din kluta k'mi shehuncha? And the answer is, either kluta k'mi shehuncha means that you don't even need hanacha midaira. If something goes through the air, k'mi shehuncha. Slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly. Give me a minute. Meaning, we're going to answer all this, but believe me, every diyuk that you can make, we'll make in the Gemara. Again, Acharonim want to know, kluta k'mi shehuncha means mashe kalut b'avir k'var chayav because the ikar is that it should be mireshus l'reshus, or the pshat is it's k'mi shehuncha, like the lashon of the Gemara. The Gemara says kluta k'mi shehuncha, so then the pshat is kluta is like hunach. Meaning, meaning, that when you read the Gemara of kluta k'mi shehuncha, the first thing you have to medayek is— K'mi, פירוש דומה ל... פירוש דומה לדין. It has the same din as if it would be chumrah. Meaning, you always are under the assumption there's a din of akivan hanacha. Comes along an akiva and he says, kluta is k'mi. Meaning, you takah don't need hanacha. So what's the first way to translate ki? Like, what's los again? Ki, kluta k'mi. K'mi means in din, like the same din of a person that was chumrah. The same way you did hanacha, you'd be chayav, ani shelo asiti, gam ken. That's one way. Or, k'mi shechumrah has to mean, k'ilu asiti. K'ilu asiti. Meaning, like you did it. Again, now listen carefully. I'm going to work today just to be able to read those words, because you should know, rov of the Torah, of the Rishonim Acharonim, are in those words, the translation of the words. Kluta means midair. K'mi. Now what does k'mi mean? Translate k'mi. Kemo adam she... No? Or, oh, so this is like this. You can say b'medina. You can say b'medina, meaning, hagam normally we always thought the din is that you need hanacha, k'mi b'din, as if b'din you did it. That's one way to learn. Another way to learn is even if you don't learn it's mamash, but it's k'mi, meaning, k'ilu if... Not din. It's not kihunach, but it's ki'ilu hunach. For some reason, kluta is ki'ilu hunach. Right. In other words, either side is, you never need hanacha. So either kemisha means kemisha bhalacha, as if the halacha of someone that did. Yeah. Or kemi is as if the metzius, means this is the same metzius, we don't care, even though it's not. Meaning, even though when you ... you weren't ... but who cares? It's the same thing. And it doesn't mean that you— No. Both things means you didn't do it. You didn't do hanacha. And you don't need hanacha. So the question is, why do you need the lashon kemi? Who says hanacha at all? Okay, kemi means like you did it. Let me ask you a question. Like it's a din. Yeah. No, no. See, the word kemi can go on the cheftza. I know you think in person. I know, but it means in din. Okay, let me explain to you again. Ready? Domeh l'ki'ilu hunach. So the question is, legabei what? You say in din. Din, if a person would do—

Hanachah, b'chayav. Kluta would also be chayav. Or maybe יש קלוטה ויש הונחה, וקלוטה כמו הונחה. מה שזה וזה אותו דבר. You're hungry, right? So you can either eat meat or you can eat fish. Is meat and fish the same thing? No, but if you eat fish, you won't be hungry, and if you eat meat, you won't be hungry. Kluta k'mi shehuncha. You got the two ways? A person takes diet pills, okay? Diet pills. He takes—oh, he takes the diet pills, it's like he ate, because he eats, right? Or the pshat is, a person ate fish, it's like he ate meat. What's that? Fish is not meat, meat is not fish, but it's the same thing. They're the same ingredients. I was looking for the mashal, I couldn't figure out what would be the best example. Now you got it? Meaning, meaning, that's on the side of the Acharonim. No. Kluta is good enough, like someone who did honachah, not kluta is honachah and not kluta is kluta. But the same way, if a person did hanachah, he did something that's mechayev him, if he did kluta, which one did you want? Substitute. This is like this. Fish is like you eat meat, but it's not the same thing. Fish is not meat means—no, it's not the same thing. This is side number one in the Acharonim. That's the answer. Mau shtei dinim? The shtei dinim is: A, is it only that you don't need hanachah, and then there's two ways to learn the Gemara, and then there's— And there's a second way that the Acharonim want to say is kemisah huncha. It's what? The ground, yeah? And then there's two ways to learn the Gemara again. Who? We'll just forget it. That's one of the פירוש kash. I'm going to get to it. Something travels through midair. But Akiva said that's called hotzaah. But he holds of hotzaah. Now, why is that called hotzaah? Even if Akiva learns, you don't need it to be on the floor. So then why does the Gemara compare it to on the floor if you don't have to be on the floor? What's the mashal then? Give a mashal. You know the Gemara? Kluta k'mi shehuncha Shabbos. Should say that. Kluta k'mi she'achal, she'achal glida b'yom rishon. What do you want? Who said this? What's that got to do with hotzaah? What are you comparing it to? The answer is, A, because we thought, or there's got to be some kind of a din of hanacha, and this is k'mi the person who did hanacha. Or maybe k'mi means it's not the same metzius, but it's the same thing that you're chayav to. Meaning, k'mo she'adam ochel basar, v'adam ochel dag, shnei machlubar echad boker, patur, shneihem hotziu. Not yet. I don't even want to get there yet. I just want to know the case. Kluta k'mi shehuncha. It midair as if. As if what? In halacha, as if meaning l'gabei the hotzaah. That's tzad one. There's a second tzad of the Acharonim, that when it says kluta, what is it? Kluta is? It's munach al hakarka. And when there's munach al hakarka, then I'm going to show you there's two ways to learn the Gemara also. Is it k'munach al hakarka indeed, or it's k'munach al hakarka mamash, in reality? Now, let's see: mahu meduyak b'lashon haRach. U'ma diaknu b'lashon haGemara. The lashon Gemara, k'ni, I just told you, right? The k'ni we have to learn is what? We don't know how to learn it. Either k'ni is in din, or k'ni is what, as if you did it, or k'ni has to mean mamash k'ni, no? Ma diaktu b'lashon haRach. If you take a look, the Rach and Hamski Rashi gettin also, but I want to show you on the blatt. I'd rather teach you on the blatt. Read the Rach, go ahead. Tell the Rosh Yeshiva, no? Yeah, one second, one second, one second. Let's just read the Rach and then I'll be with you. Good. What does the Rach say? Come, come, first, first do the Rach. Come here. Here, no pesikim. Here. Pashut ani, no, go ahead, on the day. It starts...

Pita ami? No. Pashut ami, ... daled. So what does he say? Kluta b'avir kemei? No tells Reshiva? Kemei? ... karka damya. Shulchancha? Karka. Karka damya. It's in the karka. Put it in the words. When you say, when the Gemara says, Kluta kemei shahuncha, it doesn't mean huncha in halacha; it says it's kemei shahuncha b'karka. What's the davka? I want to show you a very peldike Rambam, peldike Rambam. Problem with this Rishon. We brought it that way. He brings simple: either it's air is good enough, or it's like on the ground. We have a problem. You know why? Because we still have to learn the Gemara. See, prima facie, it's past the Gemara, but we're in the Gemara. So how do we read? We have to be simple people. When we read kluta, the word kemei—what does the word kemei mean? That's why we have to say, wait a second. Acharonim tell us either you don't need, or you do need. Now, if you don't need, then what's the kemei? Listen, I'm telling you, you'll have more if you listen to me. You'll get to the tosfos, I promise you. I'm trying to explain to you. Listen to me. Why don't you listen to me for a second? Could you listen to me? All I'm telling you is that there is a ... and a Chazon Ish and a Rav Nissim, and everybody, that says kluta kemei shahuncha has to be understood either that you don't need hanacha, or that you do need hanacha. Now what do I do? I want to read you the Gemara. I'm not interested in the Rashi. I don't care. Rashi is not my grandfather. I don't have to learn the Rashi. I have to learn the Gemara. That's what we're here for. So I'm reading with you a Gemara: Kluta k'mi. What does k'mi mean? I know that it's out there two tzaddim, so I have to know what the k'mi means. So either k'mi means in din, because there is no hanachah v'hanachah. But it's funny, right? There's no din hanachah, so why would you say k'mi? I guess it's like what other people—you rabbanim say there's a din hanachah, I'm telling you that this is in din like hanachah. Or he holds there is hanachah, but he holds kluta is good enough even though you don't have a hanachah, as if you had a hanachah. Because when you say as if, it takes you twice. Next. The other side of the Acharonim is that kluta means that it is k'muna chalakarka, for whatever reason we'll get to later, but it's k'muna chalakarka. Then let's read now again: k'mi shehundah. Oh, that's nice now, right? That's beautiful. According to the side that it's on the ground, now I understand why the Gemara says kluta k'mi shehundah, right? Because it's like it's on the ground. Very nice. I show you the Rach's clearly: kluta k'mi shehundah b'karka. Huh? This is the two—the tzad, the tzad sheini—that it's called k'muna chalakarka. You have it here in the Rach. It's not pshat it's as if there's a din hanachah here. No, no, there is hanachah here. It's chalakarka. Right. So I'm telling you, where the Rach—the words, the shita of this section, right? You see it in the Rach, that the Rach says clearly what? Karka. Yeah, you with me so far? Okay. Now, the only thing is— What is the word damya? Again, damya. Wait, but you know, by kemei I got over with, okay? I was able to survive. Now what do you do with the kemei sheklu? Hanacha? Then what's now damya? Meaning, even after—oh, I'm telling you—because even after you learn that it's al hakarka, is it mamish al hakarka, or it has to be as if it was al hakarka? So this is where I show you an open peirush Mishnayos for Rambam in Hilchos Tumah and Taharah. When there's something which is going over tumah, Reb Akiva says in the Mishnah, says the Rambam, why? Because Reb Akiva is l'shitaso. Kluta kemei she... hanacha, namely it's as if it touched the davar hatamei. Again. Yeah. But in all these shitos they bring this raya, same as Rambam. Even in mamash al hakarka, we have to clarify that we don't know. But lashon of the Gemara is damya.

Why me two sefaros? Exactly, exactly. How the first loshon? Kimi. We don't know. He just says it's on the karka. You could say. You could say even after the karka, it's kimi, and that's the damya. The Rambam comes along and learns רבי עקיבא. You see it over there, jump in. It's beautiful. Here, in Hilchos... it's פירוש המשניות. פירוש המשניות. I bring you the Mishnah, you see? Here: מאי דאקנו, מאי מדויק בלשון הר״ח, and the answer is karka. And what's the lashon Gemara? Kimi. Fine. Now, חקרנו על הצד שהוה כהונך על הקרקע, אם הגדר רבי יהודה כהונך ממש או לא. מאי דאקנו, Gemara, the answer is damya. What is the damya at the end now? Even if you want to say it's kemunah al karka, why is Gemara saying damya? מה הראיה שהבנו מהרמבם פירוש המשניות? מסכת פרה, פרק י, משנה ה: בעניין מי שנתן על הגין והעבירו על גבי דבר טמא. He took a thing, lagin is a certain type of wood keli, put it over a tamei. So Rabbi Akiva says clearly, מטמא. Says the Rambam, פירוש המשניות, Rabbi Akiva is l'shitaso, because kluteh kמי שהונחה. Because since it went over the davar tamei, it's like it's on the floor. Since it's on the floor, touches the davar tamei. No, ohel has to have a certain amount. For it to be ohel, it has to be a certain amount. Rabbanan over there say you're patur. It's only Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva says you're ohel. Everybody wants to—what's Rabbi Akiva talking about? Says the Rambam, because Rabbi Akiva is this Gemara, kluteh kמי שהונחה when it goes through the air is kמי שהונחה. You see that it's mamish that it touches. It became tamei because of it. Pashut, you want to do hilchos Shabbos. It's called as if it touches, it caught. So that's a tayeles. A is, the Rambam can't go in with the food. A is, you don't need it to be on the ground. B, it's good enough—okay, I'm sorry, let's do it this way. Ready? A, B, and C. A, in din it's the same thing. Makes no difference. Meaning, who says it has to be on the ground? No, there's no reason for it to be on the ground. Exactly. Or the pshat is, or the pshat is, it's as if, meaning it takes the place. Let's say a guy drinks coffee, right? Did he break his fast? Yeah, because drinking and eating—there's two ways of eating, right? There's drinking and eating. There's klutah and hanachah. Or the pshat is, no, it's on the ground. Domeh, meaning it's only that it's as if it's on the ground, or literally as if it touched the ground. Right. Exactly. Not on the ground. Exactly, exactly. Meaning this and this is the same. We don't need it to be on the ground. Right. Whatever it is, hoytza'ah, klutah and hanachah will be the same type of hotza'ah. C is, no, it's on the ground. Legabei, we look at it that way. Or D is, it's on the ground. The Rambam just tells me ground. Now we have to know ground meaning domeh, like the lashon of the Gemara, or— Four. So there's four. The Rach is three, but we don't know after the Rach, maybe there's a four. That's mamash on the ground. That's where the Rambam פירוש המשניות comes in. Oh, lashon in the Gemara. But you see that the Rambam doesn't learn like that. You see that the Rambam learns that Rabbi Akiva, that it says, he taps the tava tamei. Unbelievable. We're going to explain. We'll explain this. We have from the Gemara. It's svara. What's the svara? What's the svara? We're going to talk about it. Okay, now, we'll talk. Now. What's another two? B'geder klucha k'mishu huncha, shelo ma'aseh loi hunach, v'lama tihei k'munach. The Rambam is a davar shel talui. Davar shel talui. How could you talk about something that's a mid-air and say that it touched it? No, it didn't touch. Right. No. The Rambam... But the Rambam says it becomes tamei. But the Rambam says it becomes tamei. It's tamei. So it's mamash. What's the problem? Why can't you say we're looking at it being put... What's the problem? What's the problem? The Rambam over there, he said midin... Why can't you say over there...

We just make it up. It wasn't the problem. I don't understand what the question is. Once we said, we look at it. We are a people of normality. But we say yes means yes, and we say no means no. Klutah is not munach, and munach is not klutah. Don't come tell me klutah is k'mi shehunach. But once we look at it in reality, so one second, so then the whole... Right, that's exactly what... Once a joke was... It wouldn't come from anywhere, don't you understand? How can it be regarding to? Why doesn't he just say... By his side, here the chesed because it was yatza, it went out. By prais can make sense. By metumah it doesn't make sense. It has to touch it to become tamei. Tumah is not air. That's not... ...chutz. Tumah is not... ...kuka. Don't sustain. I mean, he's not making up halachos. He's making up... ...now. But klutah is trying in hilchos tumah to say it. Then I can see they could come and say, okay, ... It's a chiddush. See, but chutz is like the fall. The case is you threw it across. It wasn't... ...to fall. Different sugya. Whatever is... ...to fall, this is flying through. Okay. Let me tell you what. If you look, there's a Tosafos on amud beis here: Leinyan zorek cheifetz l'maalah mi'yud. What does the Gemara... The Gemara wants to know what's the case. He was zorek l'maalah mi'yud. The Gemara, b'deik, says he was zorek what? L'matah. And then the Gemara says, who says maybe it's l'maalah? There's a whole... So in Tosafos, Tosafos is like this: Leinyan zorek cheifetz l'maalah mi'yud, d'chashiva k'munach b'makom patur. So Tosafos has a problem. He doesn't know how could ever be a zorek cheifetz l'maalah mi'yud and he should be chayav for klutah k'mi shehunach, a makom patur. That's his kasha. ... Give me a minute. The Gemara says that what's the case of zorak? The Gemara sort of learns l'maata, and the sugya is klutah k'mi shehuncha, right? Then the Gemara says, no, maybe pumalo also. Maybe it could be on top of ten too. So Tosafos says, how can you be l'maata? How can you talk about l'maala l'yu? Give it a makom patur. Give it a makom patur. Huh? After all, Tosafos, once you hold klutah k'mi shehuncha, it doesn't. ... comes down ... because there's no such thing as makom patur, because according to the ... This is Tosafos, right? Comes along ... Huh? Tosafos doesn't know how to work here. The Rosh says, what are you talking about? If you hold klutah k'mi shehuncha, there's no makom patur. What are you talking about? No, and then the Chachamim. The Gemara doesn't say. How would you say that it's mushit, even l'maala me'asarah? Why? You see, that's the Gemara. The Gemara is trying to prove it. It's mushit, chayav. Why? L'maala me'asarah. Because the vort is we don't look at l'maala me'asarah. Zorak and moshit is different because it was in your hand also. Your hand is not called a makom patur. It's not klutah. A mushit. Zorak's mi'maish. But zorak was a case of makom patur for Tosafos. That's Tosafos's kasha. Comes along ... you know what you see from this Tosafos? Clearly that klutah is not k'mi shehuncha b'karka dami.