Shabbos 4a–4b: Klutah K’mi Shehunachah, Makom Arba’ah, and Akirah and Hanachah

Transcript

L'matan miyud פליגי, u'vaha פליגי. D'Rabbi Akiva savar kluta k'mi shehuncha, v'Rabbanan savri lo amrinan kluta k'mi shehuncha damya. Is the pshat that they argue l'matan miyud, and they argue for kluta? Aval l'maalah miyud, divrei hakol patur. L'maalah miyud, everybody holds patur. Kul alma yafin zeh g'moishet, and therefore, kul alma. Why did I think not one? Because one... A dilma l'maalah miyud פליגי, u'vaha פליגי. D'Akiva savar yafin zeh g'moishet, v'Rabbanan savri yafin zeh g'moishet. Aval l'matan miyud divrei hakol chayav. Mai ta'ama? Because we say kluta k'mi shehuncha. Says, mai ta'ama mi kluta k'mi shehuncha damya? Says the Gemara, ha lo kashya, because basiba d'Hadarav Shita lei. This is not a question because hadarav Shita lei at the end. D'savar Rabbi Akiva kluta k'mi shehuncha damya. Then the Gemara says, kashya, hanacha meibi Akira. Okay, we'll see the Gemara's kashya. Al kol panim, so we have two stamim in the Gemara. Stam number one is that l'maalah miyud, we don't say, right, it's patur, and therefore we don't say kluta. And stam number two is that we say l'maalah miyud according to Rabbi Akiva, but according to Rabbanan, lo amrinan k'mi shehuncha, therefore there's no kluta. Fine. Comes along Rashi. Plus, the Gemara doesn't say anything. Either they argue l'maalah miyud, or they argue l'matah miyud. That's the machlokes. According to—first, the first צד, l'maalah miyud is never chayav, even according to. The second צד is, according to, l'maalah miyud is chayav, because afilu tzorech Moshe, and the Rabbanan hold afilu tzorech Moshe, therefore l'maalah miyud is patur. Now let's see why it would be that the havamina, or the צד הראשון, is the kula alma. Yes. Comes along the Gemara and comes out with the yesod. The bottom line is, l'maalah miyud there's no kluta. That's what you see from this Gemara. Either there's no kluta and everybody holds you're patur, or there's no kluta and Reb Akiva will chayav for a reason of yalfinan zoreik miMoshe. But it's definitely not that there's no kluta l'maalah miyud, okay? Halacha l'maaseh, there's no kluta l'maalah miyud, okay? Why not? Says Rashi like this: Uv'soch yud, because d'i l'maalah miyud, keivan d'lema'alah min yud, lav avir reshus harabim hu. It's not avir reshus harabim, ela avir makom patur. So it comes out it's the avir of a makom patur, v'hafilu kluta leka. There's not even kluta. There's no kluta. Now, if you take a look—no, Rashi's explained to us why there's no kluta l'maalah miyud. Rashi's yesod is because there's no kluta when it's in the avir of a makom patur. That's what he says. He doesn't explain why. Why not? Well, he does. Truth is, if you read Rashi properly, he does. I'm just reading the words. The words of Rashi are that since it's an avir makom patur, therefore afilu kluta leka. We don't even have kluta. If you take a look, Tosafos, which, im yirtzeh Hashem, we'll soon read inside the Tosafos, Tosafos learns that the problem is that since it's in a makom patur— Therefore it becomes pasul, because it's klutah into a makom patur. Just yipater, because it's a makom patur. The Ramban has a third loshon that I want to show it to you, because the Ramban—we're going to learn this. When the Ramban brings the halacha of klutah l'maalah me'yud, we don't say, says the Ramban such a loshon. And I want to see if you could see the difference between Rashi and the Ramban. Says the Ramban like this. Here. He says the Ramban like this. D'l'maalah me'asarah, keivan d'...

The girsa is linear. It's supposed to say linear. I know, you have the linear, I have the linear, the linear. Both, what's the difference? It's the same thing, the linear. He's trying to argue on— it doesn't make a difference. He doesn't agree on what he said before, or v'linira differently than what he said before. It's two different girsaos. It doesn't make a difference. Now, but the point of it is, d'l'maalah me'asarah, keivan d'paleg lei reshusa mikarka, leka l'meimar k'mi shehuncha b'patur. Again, Rashi says because it's avir patur, therefore it's not even kluta. The Tosafos says it's kluta to makom patur, that's why you're patur. And the Ramban says that, since it's paleg reshusa, therefore it's not k'mi shehuncha. Do you see the difference between Rashi and the Ramban? Okay. What? What's the difference? If Rashi... Where do you have ...? What do you say? Huh? He says there's no klut here. The Ramban says there's klut if it's not kemishehuncha. And Tosafos says it's kemishehuncha, but it's a makom patur. And you think this is a big diyuk in simple pshat? I'm not even telling you big stories. Rashi is telling us that there's no klut here. V'afilu—look at the words of Rashi—v'afilu kluta leka. There's no klut here. The metzius of klut doesn't apply over here. The Ramban seems to be saying that even if I could say kluta, but I can't say kemishehuncha, because... Tosafos is saying I say kluta, and I say kemishehuncha, but it's a makom patur because it's huncha, it's a makom patur. Let's answer the first question. And the answer is, yeah, okay, now it's everything. The Ramban is saying like this: since it's a reshus... even though it's kluta, but you can't say kemishehuncha where it's not there. It never touched the karka. How can you say on the karka it's a different reshus? Like, the chatzotzros. He doesn't say that. He says like, kluta, but since it's a reshus bifnei atzmai, you can't say kemisha huncha. Because Tosafos says this kemisha huncha. Right. The Ramban doesn't say that. Ramban says it is a kemisha huncha. Tosafos stresses it's kemisha huncha, but a huncha in a different reshus. The Ramban stresses smachta huncha because it's a different reshus. Sure? Again. Tosafos learns that there is kluta, and kluta is kemisha huncha, but where? Huncha here. And here is a makom patur. Mikivan shezeh b'makom patur, lachen ani patur. Amrina kluta, amrina kemisha huncha, aval huncha pach. Now the Avnei Nezer does two of the three things. He explained to me Tosafos and Rashi. Rashi seems to say there's no kluta at all. Those are the words of Rashi: leka kluta, afilu kluta. Look at the words of Rashi, and it's not even kluta. If you're not patur, not patur if it works, it's not even—the metzius of kluta is not even here. Tosafos is saying it's here, and it's even kemisha huncha. But since it's—

Kemishahuncha, we're in a bakkup tour, therefore I'm patur. The Ramban is saying it's kluta, but the kemishahuncha, you don't have. On the ground. Comes along the Avnei Nezer and explains like this: If you learn that you don't need hanacha, so then therefore we can say in a makom patur, kluta. But if you need that it should be hanacha al gabei karka, therefore you can't say kluta in a makom patur. Sound familiar? We learned this already, right? This is Tosafos and this is the Avnei Nezer I spoke to you about. The only thing is, he wasn't learning the Rashi, meaning he was talking in general. It's true, in general the two צדדים are either it's באוויר or it's not, or it's בקרקע. And if it's באוויר, then you could say it from a makom patur, and if it's not באוויר, then you can't say kluta in a makom patur. Rashi says more. Rashi says like a kluta even. Rashi didn't say like hanacha, like a kluta. And I believe it's a three-way machlokes, and let me explain to you what I think the machlokes is. The Avnei Nezer says in general, Tosafos holds there's kluta in a makom patur because he learned kluta doesn't mean to the ground. He learns kluta means, in general, kluta, באוויר, דין whatever it is, like we spoke last week, like we spoke last week, right? The Ketzos Yaakov already wants to say it's not a raya from Tosafos because you can learn it's the ground, but it's still the Ketzos Yaakov, right? That's this Tosafos, okay. If you learn the Rashi properly, you see the emes is three things that are going on here. Rashi is to one extreme, and Tosafos is to the other extreme, and the Ramban is in the middle. Rashi is learning that there's not even kluta, אפילו—what's the words he's saying? Saying, afilu kluta means the metzius of kluta is not here. That's, afilu kluta leka. Ramban is saying, in the middle, there's kluta, but not k'mi shehuncha. Even if you follow Rishus, there's no k'mi shehuncha. Tosfos is saying there is kluta and there is k'mi shehuncha, but where? Here! Not here, here, in the Rishus ha-rabim. I'm sorry, in the makom patur. And since it's the makom patur, you're patur. So let's answer the first question: Ha'im amrinan kluta l'maalah mi-yud? And the answer is, masugya shelanu mashma lehedya mefurash, believe, safek, believe, p'shut pirkulim, pirkulim, whatever you want to say, you know what? Lo amrinan kluta l'maalah mi-yud. Lama? Makom patur. Lefi Rashi, afilu kluta leka. You saw the words I put out? Afilu—whose lashon of Rashi is that? That's Rashi himself talking. Afilu kluta leka. Lefi Tosfos, kehuncha b'makom patur. It's kluta and it's k'munach, but k'munach b'makom patur. And lefi ha-Ramban, leka l'meimar k'mi shehuncha. Question number five: bameh? You notice there on the line, bameh. Bameh means... In what? Chelki Rashi, Tosfos, Ramban, HaNal. So I tell you, ayin amlineis. The only problem is amlineis is very—it's not wrong, because he's saying two Tzaddim, but he's not explaining all three of the Tzaddim. The two Tzaddim are kluta, or k'mi shehuncha is b'avir, k'mi shehuncha b'karka. That only helps me the Tosfos and who, and the—what is Rashi? I tell you like this: Rashi learns kluta hu klitat reshut. Remember how I explained to you last week how the metzius of kluta works? What does kluta mean? That the reshut is kolet, meaning it went from one reshut to another reshut. Says Rashi, since it's a makom patur, there's no reshut. The way it works is— That's right. There's reshus. And this makom, and this is a makom patur, which means it's nothing. It's not a reshut. It's not a place. It's nothing. It's less than daled al daled. It's nothing. So what's the—l'gabi Hilchos Shabbos it's daled reshuyos. But to come and say that—think about it. What does the word kluta mean? It's here.

There's no here in a makom patur. Could you come and say it's in the fire hydrant? It's either in the house or it's in the street. But it's not in a makom patur. It's on a makom patur, maybe. But it's on a place. It's not an entity that's reshus. That's right, because it's reshus harabim. שיטת התוספות, ... אמרינן ... האי אמרינן קלוטה אפילו לקולה, הוי דווקא לחומרא. Rabosai, so let's learn the Tosfos inside, because Tosfos wants to come up with a yesod, you hear, that we say קלוטה לקולה לחומרא. Let's see the Tosfos. Okay, you have it? Come. Says Tosfos like this: אמרינן קלוטה כמי שהונחה. You know the Tosfos? You know if you did it? So come, let's see Tosfos. דקשה לי, מאי פריך, למימרא דפשיטא ליה לרבה, מינא ליה דפשיטא ליה לרבה? How do you know it's so peshita to Rabba, right? What does למימרא? למימרא, a weak to say, right? What does the Gemara say here? למימרא דפשיטא ליה לרבה. How do you know it's so peshita to Rabba? Who said? Who says so peshita? Maybe—yeah, because what are you making? למימרא, a weak to say it's peshita to Rabba. Who says it's peshita? מנא ליה דפשיטא ליה לרבה? אי משום דקאמר, is it because Rabba said, המני רבי עקיבא היא? היינו משום דרבי עקיבא איס ליה ממונא, שקלוטה כמי שהונחה דמיא. Like what? That he's the most guaranteed man d'amar. What is he saying? He said that what? Rabbi Akiva is the man d'amar because Rabbi Akiva surely holds קלוטה כמי שהונחה. But it's possible that Rabbanan also want—also say קלוטה כמי שהונחה. Remember I told you this kasha? Whose kasha is this? Rishonim's kasha, right? So how do you know maybe even the Rabbanan agree to קלוטה כמי שהונחה? אבל לרבי דרבנן מספקא להו, לספק לאוקמי ממונא. Now, the im hayinu omrim hadar kablei Rabbi Akiva, because we understood that it goes together. That's the mashal. I mean, the way the mashal— that's what we said. You see the kluta d'arba amos go together. But the fact that you said, Rabbi Akiva, it's no raya that the Rabbanan— what? Yeah, that's what he's saying. Yeah, that's what he's saying. That's what the Tosefos is saying. We knew this. All this we knew. Here comes— simply, ready? Come, don't fall away. We knew all the time that kluta d'arba amos go together, and since— obviously you see that from the Gemara. That's how the Gemara puts together. Right, so the question in Rabba, when Rabba comes— that's not what he's asking. What Tosefos asks is it could be the Rabbanan also. That's the question. Why is it peshita l'Rabba? How do you know? Where do you see Rabba's words? That's what you're saying, you think that, but that's the Tanna. The Gemara thinks that because he said, mani Rabbi Akiva. Mani Rabbi Akiva is only because he's the most guaranteed, but the Rabbanan can also. Dollars. Who's they? That's what Rabbanan said. That's we. We're saying that. We're saying because Rabbi Akiva holds kluta k'mi shehuncha, and it comes out peshita lei that they argue on kluta, says Tosefos, so peshita. Maybe they don't argue on kluta. Maybe they argue on daled. Why do you say mani Rabbi Akiva? Because Rabbi Akiva for sure has to hold the kluta. You know what? I don't want to see a difficult day today. Everybody read it. The kashla read.

You read it. It's kasha l'rei. This is a difficult debate today, from heaven, from heaven they're sending me messages. Kasha l'rei. Read it. The mai parich. How do you know so pashut the Rabba, right? So obviously they must be arguing kluta, right? It's only because Rabbi Akiva holds manoshach kluta, but not that the Rabbanan don't hold the kluta. The safek, like, because maybe they could still hold the kluta. Any side you say. Any side in Gemara on the... it's two sides. Whatever it is. No. Two sides. Where's the argument there? Okay, fine. So any side is really רבי, right? But also could be Rabbanan. They might, you know, ... how did come l'Rabbi Akiva savar kluta k'mi shehuncha dami, Rabbanan, hakaamedivrei Rabbi. Hava asi shapir. If it's all Rabba talking, then it's very good, because Rabba is the one that's telling me that Rabbanan and Rabbi Akiva are arguing, l'meimar, so therefore l'meimar the pshita lei l'Rabba. But it's not Rabba talking. It's we're talking in Rabba. The Gemara's talking. Achei nir'eh sheheim divrei Rabba. It's really the Gemara, so how is it pshita lei to the Gemara? Oimeri, d'hachi peirusha. If it's Rabba talking, that's why it's pshita lei that they argue about kluta k'mi shehuncha. But if it's not Rabba talking, so where's the pshita? So what does he say? V'eimari, d'hachi peirusha. V'miba'i, ibaya l'Rabba. It's a question to Rabba. V'keivan d'ika lesfukei b'plugtaya, ika nami sfukei dilma l'kulei alma, l'Rabbi Nekut k'lishoncha. That's what the Gemara means. The same way we can have a safek in the Rabbanan, so Rabba can already have a safek on the other way also. That's all the Gemara means. L'meimra d'pshita lei l'Rabba d'mekuta? No, ha gufa, maybe it's only a safek. That's because it's only a safek, so that's what the Gemara is trying to say, there's a safek both ways. The Gemara never said, l'meimra one way that it's pshita, l'meimra that it's a safek. And once it's a safek, so therefore it's not pshita the other way. That's what the Gemara means. Are we to say it's pshita? It's not pshita, it's a safek. And if it's a safek, the safek can go both ways. That's all the Gemara means, yes? Says Tosafos: Dilma ika nami sfukei dilma l'kulei alma, l'Rabbi Nekut k'lishoncha, u'v'zu keneged zu l'kulei alma patur. And then it will come out that everybody holds patur, ki pligi b'di'uta achas, in the same place. D'Rabbi Akiva savar, afilu zoreik mi'maishin, Rabbanan savri lei afilu. Ela d'Rabba lo chash l'faresh kol ha'ibayos. Only thing is, Rabba didn't want to explain the whole, like this, all the different stadim of the she'eilah. Therefore, what does he do? Amar Rabbi Akiva. It's nice and easy, Amar Rabbi Akiva. No, huh? Daniel, say it over. Say it over, explain and talk. Okay. Toisfos makes two mecheshbayns, we'll never get out of here. It's very simple. Okay, it's very, very simple. You have to promise me you're going to learn the Tosfos, because Tosfos makes all the cheshbonim. There's one nekudah that we can continue with the shiur from one nekudah in Tosfos, and I'll show you from which nekudah. Tosfos has an interesting she'eilah. Every time we say, kluta k'mi shehuncha, then a zorek mishus harabim derech reshus hayachid, right? Or actually every zorek, every zorek, every zorek, right? Why didn't you come and say kluta k'mi shehuncha, every zorek? Come and say, and therefore he won't be chayav. He won't be chayav. A guy threw a ball, daled amos, you're chayav? Kluta k'mi shehuncha, you're never chayav. Kluta k'mi shehuncha means every second means it's landed, so it never went daled amos.

If I bounce the ball, if I bounce the ball, boom, boom, boom, it went daled amos. Am I chayiv? No, it's not. It has to be for a mode. That's something else. That's because the special halacha of... But zoyrik. Who's not a zoyrik? Every second when it goes, there's no kluta by yad. Stop, stop, stop. You hear? There's no kluta. Tosafos comes along and says that, l'meilah, Tosafos says this will be a proof that we don't say kluta k'mi shehuncha. This is Tosafos's nekudah over here. Every zorek would be patur. Comes along, Tosafos Yeshanim on the side. Okay, the Gemara wants to be mechayev you that if I threw it from one reshus into reshus harabim, there's kluta k'mi shehuncha. So Tosafos says, on the same side, that if I threw a ball into reshus harabim, I should be patur. Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim. We will never finish. We'll be here until tomorrow. We'll be here Shabbos. You want to be here for Shabbos? I can't be here for Shabbos. I can learn with you Shabbos in the week, till Shabbos. You understand? But Shabbos, finished. Now listen carefully. You'll have to do Tosafos. You will. How much you will, how much you make a bet you will. I'll bet on it that you will. Eliezer, you're learning with me, right? So I know you will. That's it. Sorry. I'm sorry. You'll have to do it. You'll do it, you'll do it. Don't be so lazy. You'll do it. Yeah, listen carefully. It says... Okay, you know what? Forget everything we just said. You know why? Because I see already it's too complicated for you to make the cheshbon in the Gemara. There's one piece of the Tosafos which is beautiful. Tosafos wants to know... That if we say a svara of kluta, kemi shehuncha, when I send it through the air, so then a stamam a zorek through a reshus harabim should be patur. The same way I want to be mechayev zorek from reshus to reshus al yedei kluta, I want to be mechayev you. Let's come and say that you're patur on a zorek b'reshus harabim. Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim. Of course not. Zorek b'reshus harabim is chayav. Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim, and he says, What are you talking about? We're only going to say it l'chumra, but not l'kula. Who says kluta kemi shehuncha is said l'kula? It's only said l'chumra, to come and aser it. Yeah, come. Very simple, simple. Kluta. Right? So if I threw a ball in the street, am I chayav or patur? Chayav, right? But I get kluta kemi shehuncha, I'm patur. Says the Tosafos Yeshanim on the side. You see on the side of your Gemara you have Tosafos Yeshanim. He says, V'eino hochach. That's some charidus. V'eino hochach. Little piece, right there on the side of Tosafos. V'eino hochach. Amud beis. Here, amud beis. V'eino hochach. Ata say. Ata say. The way amar kluta kemi shehuncha damya, ela l'hachmir. Ela l'hachmir. D'i l'hakel, nami amru, im ken, zorek daled amos breshus harabim, heichi mishkachas lah? Hey, you're right. It's always a ... with that bothered with this question. So Tosafos seems to learn that it would be a problem. So my question to you is, do we say kluta l'chumra and l'kula? Tosafos seems to say yes. Tosafos Yeshanim seems to say that we don't say it l'kula, only l'chumra. Oh, that's the kasha. What happened over here? Another ... it works, it works. I mean, ... it works, it works. What do you mean? Lo amrinan. What is lo amrinan? If such a metzius called kluta and it's real. I mean, l'chumra l'kula, it works. I mean, is it a metzius or it's something we just made up off the top of our head? Bishlama, you come and you say that gazru, lo gazru, the sugya before, that's gezeiros, that's all gezeiros. But since when is klutah k'mi shehuncha something that we made up? And if it's something that we made up, are we to understand that when it says chayav in the Gemara, it's not really chayav min haTorah? On the svara of klutah k'mi shehuncha, chayav min haTorah mid'rabbanan, min haTorah? I mean, whoever said it's not chayav? It's chayav, right? So then what's the difference between what? Kula and chumra. So let's read the question first. I mean, we learned the Gemara, Rabbi Akiva says it's chayav. What was the case we learned it from? We learned it from parsha ani yadai, we learned it from the Mishnah, right? Klutah k'mi shehuncha, the whole business is the Mishnah, right? Mishnah is d'Oraisa or something. It's a new piece of information, that klutah...

You only said l'chumra, not l'kula. Where'd you get it from? Let's see inside. Now, ha'im amrinan kluta afilu l'kula, oi dafka l'chumra? And the answer is, according to Tosfos, we say it's l'kula and l'chumra. Mahu shitas haTosfos yeshanim al haGilyon, l'inyan kluta lo hakel? And the answer is, לא אמרינן קלוטה להקל, only l'hachmir. Mahu ra'ayos haTosfos yeshanim? And the teretz is, משום זורק ד' אמות ברשות הרבים, because every zorek daled amos ברשות הרבים would be patur. Amarnu vaninu sheTosfos yitareitz ra'ayos haTosfos yeshanim according to the Rashba. Now the Rashba asks this kasha also, and he says, how could every zorek be chayiv if we say kluta? Do you know what the Rashba answers? תלכתא גמירי לה, halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Oh, so he also learns chumra l'kula? Yeah, we could come and say it's only l'chumra, but it's halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Only l'chumra? No, l'kula also. Bang. It could have been, but we don't say it. It doesn't say. The Rashba says, halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Kluta k'mi shehuncha, that we don't say by zorek daled amos ברשות הרבים, even though it should be. Let me not say it's a halacha l'Moshe miSinai. It should have been even l'kula. It should have been that every zorek is patur. So why is he not patur? Halacha l'Moshe miSinai. There's no—there's no—so why he is chayav? There's no hesber. So somebody asks you—interesting, huh?—so somebody asks you, lama asur lizrok daled amos ברשות הרבים, you don't answer him, according to the Rashba, halacha l'Moshe miSinai. I think what to talk about. Mezig. Easy way out, no? Halachah Moshe miSinai, finished. ... finished, end of story. Then the Rashba says, but then there's going to be those people that are going to be like Telz or yeshiva, not going to be mekabel when they say halachah Moshe miSinai, and instead, v'oid, comes the Rashba and he says a second teretz. This we have to work with. Says the Rashba, kluta is only said b'reshus acheres, but b'osa reshus, says the Rashba, we don't say kluta. My dear friend, can you answer me, what's the difference? None of... So therefore, zorak b'reshus harabim, daled amos, there's no... exactly what I say. But he bothers me. He knows the Rashba, and he's still bothering. Say Telz or yeshiva, he sees this is Telz or yeshiva. He knows the Rashba. So he knows I'm coming from the Rashba when I told you my svara in Rashi, but he's still bothering. Now listen clearly. You ready? Simcha, I need you. You're my amudim, my arayot. You ready? Simcha, again, tagid li, lamah d'kluta k'mi shehuncha? So you're open Gemara, kluta k'mi shehuncha. How can every zorek daled amos breshus harabim be chayav? She'eilos rishonim. Beautiful. Comes along Tosafos Yeshanim, v'davka l'chumra v'lo l'kula. What are you talking about? Where? What? What? Only mid'rabbanan kluta, chad chashon. Kluta is deraisa. What are you talking about? Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim to prove it to you. You know how I know it? Because you see by a zorek daled amos b'reshus harabim, you're chayav. So you see that you don't say l'kula. What is Tosafos' answer to this kasha of Tosafos Yeshanim? So because the truth is the Rashba has a kasha. The Rashba gives a different answer. What's the Rashba's פירוש? Halachah Moshe miSinai, finished, okay. There's the katuv. There's nothing. Doesn't mean... Even though you should be patur, b'halachah Moshe miSinai you're chayav. You should be patur. It's very good. You're asking good Tosafos Yeshanim, good ra'ayot, very nice, but you're wrong. That's what my brother would say: You're right, but you're wrong. That's it. Although my brother, you know that he always says that: You're right—no, Avram—you're right, but you're wrong. Okay, so that's it. ... Check. Comes along the Rashba and he says, v'oid. What's the v'oid? You know when we say kluta, when it goes from one reshus to another, zorak mireshus lireshus. But if it's zorak b'oto rishus, ein kluto. אני שואל אותך. I'm not pshat in Rashi. Havoi sai, what did I tell you, shat in Rashi? What did I tell you? Oh, there is no kluto. Kluto is miklat, mimakom l'makom. She's not. She's not. You know what it is? You remind me of the Talmud. You remind me of the Talmud. The Talmud said what? Amar, amar said. Kach hu amar. Amar, amar.

Masha techiyim ad hasof, ad hasof. Not only they lost, they have one maalah that they have. Actually, a few maalos, but one of the maalos that they have is—they have maalos. You know their maalah is? Gevurah, Tel Aviv. Gevurah, Tel Aviv. They have gevurah, you hear? Watch their gevurah. Mashe techiyim la'asot heim otzim. They have this. They can go, they can walk to the moon to put you on trial, you know that. You know, a Yehudi echad shehigia... Yehudi echad higia, yeah, from Crown Heights, he walked from Crown Heights to Queens. Lagid, kama mizmorei Tehillim sham, ba'knesses b'Simchas Torah. For what? For what? What? What do you want? What? ... You know what it is to walk from Crown Heights to Queens? The Rebbe gives him power, Baruch Hashem. And Vatali... same. They come here, then they go back, three hours. Then they go back. Six hours they walk. For what? ... Now listen here. You know, here, six hours. My father told me over a nice story. There was once a guy who was stealing from the Lubavitch yeshiva. They told the Rebbe. The Rebbe says—and you have to understand the nusach of the Rebbe, when the Rebbe used to speak—someone was stealing from the yeshiva. The Rebbe said, You have to catch him, and you have to beat him up ad maves. You know, that's the expression. Lubavitch used to have always ad maves. You know, there was a... They found the guy and they started beating him up. The guy's laying on the floor bleeding. Good, he's bleeding. And then they stopped, listened. The guy, they beat him up, shain. All of a sudden one guy says, Avuh ad mura mar ad maves. Odd... Odd... I don't know. The few more pir, that wasn't enough. They were going on the four bleeding. Klum, klum, pisuk, pisuk. ... What? ... Ad mos? Ad mos? Yeah, that's it, ad mos. I show you Rashi. The Rashi is telling me clearly, because if you don't say kluta, only to different reshus. D'oraisa, reshus lo amrinan kluta. I'm asking you a question. So to a no reshus, for sure you don't say kluta. Makom patur. That's the whole svara. The svara is, kluta means niklat mimakom echad. ... Because makom is makom patur. The reshus has to be ... Huh? No? Rashi says not. Rashi says not that way. Rashi is saying it never went. Klita means shezeh kalat mimeni. Right. One reshus to another is shayach kilut. Kalatti misham lepo. The niklat misham lepo. You know what arei miklat is? What's the word arei miklat means? ... Kotim misham lepo. It's ... kotim misham lepo. Over here too, says the Rashba, so this is the nekudah. ... Mahem divrei haRashba eilu? And the answer is, kluta dafka, lereshus acher, aval lo ltora reshus. Eich bi'arnu, vikdanu divrei haRashba na'aleh? And the answer is, kemo shekasavnu bbiur Rashi btechilas hashiur. Klita is okay. The Gemara has a safek now. Let's see the next line in the Gemara. A big question. It's a brilliant question, by the way. More like this. Vdilma hanacha hu dlo bai, bakira bai. Says the Gemara, how do you know that there's a halacha of kluta kmi shehunchan dami, al daled, and that whole business? By, by akirah, maybe told by hanacha. This, Rabbi Akiva comes and says, loi be'inyan makom daled al daled, and klutah k'mi shehuncha, the whole business, that's only for hanacha. But l'akirah, we won't say klutah k'mi shehuncha.

Dollar, dollar. I'm saying the whole. I'm saying my name is Kluta, I'm saying. Kluta is therefore, you don't need dollar, dollar. Who says it's ... akirah that you don't need dollar, dollar? Okay. We want to say that our Mishnah is Reb Akiva, but our Mishnah is coming akirah also. Maybe Reb Akiva holds not anochah. Maybe not; who's he talking about akirah? That's Gemara's kasha. Okay. What's the hava amina to be mechalek between akirah and anochah? What's the svara? Manashach, if you hold that Kluta is k'mi shehunach, so the vort is there's an anochah here. So there's an anochah, so you can have akirah from that also. K'mi shehunach. It's k'mi. But whatever is—yes, why not? I'm telling you, Kluta is, if it's Kluta, it's k'mi shehunach, meaning what? That you're chayav for the hanachah even though it's not daled al daled. So if a guy did an akirah from that, he's chayav, right? Yeah, but that's the whole point. The point is, if I'm chayav for it, so you see you don't need daled al daled. What does he see from here? Yeah, I mean, what's the kashya of the Gemara? The Gemara is saying maybe it's only din and halacha. Yes, therefore I can't learn that the Mishnah, because the akirah is only ... Now, I want to דין עקירה והנחה. What's the difference? What's the difference? I mean, if you don't need for hanacha, that means the akirah from that is good. Pashut shayla, right? Okay. The Gemara מסתפקת, ... שדילמא בהנחה מינה קלוטה ולא בעי ד'. אבל בעקירה, כיון דהלאו על הצד דקלוטה כמי שהונחה, הרי יש מקום ד'. What's the svara of akirah? The svara is that pshat, hanacha doesn't need; hanacha needs daled. But you have it with the svara of kluta. Yes, akirah is the same thing, right? What do you want? I mean, in other words, whatever is good, whatever is good for the hanacha has to be good for the akirah. Teretz is, it's not mamash כמי שהונחה, right? It's not makom daled. So let's take a look. Look at איך תירצנו את הקושיא now. I'm telling you, the question is, pashut pshat, the question is, and you'll soon see that the reason why you're answering is because I already taught you this properly in the beginning. This is a kashya that everybody asks. On the side that it works for hanacha, it works for the hanacha, which means you had a hanacha over here. You had a hanacha. The thing was mamash מונח. It was on the floor, right? So then whatever it is, if I made an akirah from that... I have to be chayav for it, right? Because there was a hanacha I made. So how could you turn around and say that for the hanacha it's good, but the akirah is no good? The Gemara wants to... Right, could be in the hanacha you don't need daled al daled, but for the akirah you'll need daled al daled. If, let's say, I picked up from that, then I'd be chayav. I mean, l'choira, that's the svara. It works both ways: akirah is akirah from a hanacha. So on the צד that it's a hanacha, how could you turn around and say that there's no akirah over here? And especially if you learn that the svara is k'munach al gabei karka and you have the daled al daled. So that's what we're talking about. Why are you not chayav? It's chatzer ha'shutafin. Talk about the shutafin. We want to talk about in the shutafin, why you're not chayav. We have to discuss that. Okay, we have to see. Every time you make akirah and hanacha, you should be chayav. But then according to the Gemara's kasha, the way the Gemara is learning, that there's a chiluk between akirah and hanacha, so let's split it. So then it's av and toldah. We'll see the Rishonim ask for a kashya. We'll soon see. Says the Gemara that l'maaseh it's good for hanacha; maybe only hanacha, we don't know akirah. Now wait a second, wait a second. So let's take this apart. If you learn kluta is mamash k'mi shehuncha, that's why it's good, then in a chamur, the kasha is only with kashya. If you learn kluta is k'mi shehuncha and meileh lo iba'inan daled al daled, that's...

Where you don't have beinah daled al daled, because since it's kluta, it's k'mi shehuncha, and you have the daled al daled, then the kashya normally will kashya. So then that kir is the same thing. Then that kir is the same story, right? That means you have the daled al daled, and it's the same story. So then what does the Gemara mean? So that's, Eich tiratzes hakushya now, afi ma shekatamnu b'yarnu, lama Gemara metchila nakta hamoney Reb Akiva d'loi beinah daled? So I explained to you, d'af al pi sheyesh kluta, aval ein kan hanacha me'al gabei. Remember I explained to you what's pshat in Reb Akiva? Avadu we hold kluta, and avadu we hold kluta k'mi shehuncha. But what was this problem in the Gemara? It's not called daled al daled. Oh, so there's two problems: not even hanacha, and not in makom. Oh, you want— No, no, you need daled al daled. You need daled al daled. That's pshat when Reb Akiva says, you don't loi bi'inon, not pshat it's k'mi and therefore loi bi'inon. It's not k'munach al gabei karka and still loi bi'inon. It's very, very simple. It's very simple. No, the opposite. The opposite. Not because, even though, l'marot, when the Gemara says kluta k'mi shehuncha, not kluta k'mi shehuncha. Comes along the Gemara, and the Gemara says, Han money? It's Reb Akiva. Now, Reb Akiva holds you don't need daled al daled. So I ask you, if it's kluta k'mi shehuncha, you have the daled al daled. Let me ask you this question. So what's the answer to the question? Even if you have kluta, and even you have k'mi shehuncha, but you don't have daled. You have hunach, but not daled. You're lacking the number daled. That's how we explain it. If you don't learn like we say, what's the pshat in the Gemara? Why would ArtScroll write? ArtScroll would write like this: that it's kluta, it's not mamish hunach, it's only k'mi shehunach. And since it's only k'mi shehunach, so therefore you have to come and say that Rabbi Akiva holds that you don't need hanachah al makom daled. I mean, that's the Gemara. I mean, that's—but it's not true. Why? Because according to many Rishonim, and Rav Nezes b'roshim screaming and yelling that it's kehunah b'karka, right? See, the Rosh, the Rosh is clearly it's kehunah b'karka. So what do you do? So you have to say either it's not mamish hunach, it's only k'hunach. And again, like we spoke about all this. This is the shaila. Now listen carefully. Listen. So it comes out that when the Gemara says that maybe it's only by hanachah and not by akirah, so let's work it through. If the Gemara meant that you have the hanachah, and when Rabbi Akiva says loi be'inan daled is because kluta is k'mi shehunach gabei karka, that's why loi be'inan daled. Loi be'inan daled, right? What's pshat loi be'inan daled? Since it's kluta, k'mi shehunach b'karka, therefore loi be'inan daled. Huh? Then you don't need daled. That's what I answered. But that's what I said, but what's not what I said. How would you translate the Gemara here? Simply, you tie it to the— You know, just teach me the Gemara. You got to teach me the Gemara. Simple here, very, very simple. When the Gemara says that according to Rabbi Akiva you don't need daled al daled, you don't need to put it down on daled al daled. Why? Because he holds kluta k'mi shehunach. So I ask you, isn't that a contradiction? If it's kluta k'mi shehunach, in other words, they dispute the Gemara says that kluta— Goes together with loi bina daled is because kluta is b'avir, right? And once it's b'avir, i.e., it's not on the ground, the teretz is loi bina. That's how you learn pashut the Gemara. The Rabbi Akiva, who learns kluta, will learn loi bina. That's the simple pshat in the Gemara. That's the pashut pshat in the Gemara. That's how it goes hand in hand. And the Rabbanan, who don't hold kluta, is because they hold yesh daled.

Which means you have klutah, and therefore it might be in a daled. If this is true, then you have a very big problem in the Gemara. Why? Because as long as it's good enough for hanacha, then the problem is it's got to be good enough for what? For akirah. That's clear. But if you learn in the Gemara that when the Gemara says klutah is k'mi shehuncha, and it is k'mi shehuncha, the only thing is, but it's not kehunach b'makom daled al daled. Okay, so the whole thing falls away. The kasha falls away. Meaning, what's the geder l'gabei hanacha? It is a hanacha. So for hanacha, you might not need daled al daled. But for akirah, maybe that akirah has to be from a munach where daled al daled. If you learn it's not hanacha, then there couldn't be an akirah. It can't be. Once you learn it's good for hanacha, then it has to be good for akirah. The point is, the question is, how much do you need that you could come and say there's a chiluk between akirah and hanacha? What's the nafka mina between hanacha? I'll explain to you, because if you learn that the akirah is not al gabei karka, but if you learn the akirah is al gabei karka, so then you have a very big problem in the Gemara. Because sometimes if it's a hanacha al gabei karka, how can that be an akirah? And how can that be good for an akirah? What's a hanacha al gabei karka? And the teretz is that even if it's a hanacha al gabei karka, but it's lacking in the daled al daled. It's lacking in the daled al daled, and that's what the Gemara means. Eileima maybe the daled al daled is needed for akirah. It's not needed for halacha. Meaning, you can have a munach, munach, but the akirah will have to be from a munach, which is al daled. You understand? That's pshat in the Gemara. Ah, what's the chiddush? Exactly, that's one Tosafos. I love you. See, this is why I want you to listen. I'm begging you. I'm not teaching you wild things. I teach you pshat. Tosafos comes along and says two reasons why it makes sense to say that it's only by akirah and not by hanachah. Eliyahu, wake up. Let's go. Says Tosafos, v'dilma — you got it? Read the Tosafos. No? No! No? That same Tosafos: v'od, ... Rebbi ... Okay, ... Here, this is the Tosafos. ... says Tosafos, I want to explain this that we say ha'akirah ba'ah al yedei ... mishkan, because we learn it out from the Mishkan. Simcha's good. Simcha, you're good, yeah? Sheha'notel ... shehein arba al arba, v'noslan l'yad, oseh melachah. So therefore, by the akirah, the akirah was what? From a makom daled al daled. Mash'ein kein, the hanacha, maybe the hanacha doesn't need makom daled al daled. U'lefi ma shepirashti l'eil, the dashino al yetzi ish mi'mkomoi, al shem hamishaper d'bakirah meiri. It's talking about akirah, which means, al yetzi ish mi'mkomoi. Where is that? Al yetzi mi'mkomoi is bakirah. And since it's bakirah, so therefore akirah becomes the main thing. Mash'ein kein hanacha, you can make hanacha called whatever you do for hanacha is good enough. Whatever, if it's possible such a metzius, that's what he's trying to say. Whatever you do is good enough. Comes along the Rashba, and he adds two words to Tosafos. What does the Rashba say? Go ahead, Nu? Look at the Rashba. Oh, what's the bedilma? Says the Rashba, the bedilma is a sevara. You know what it is? It's a sevara.

What's the svara? What is it? Says the Rashba, ... kol d'musagi, kol shehu maspik. ... Here, comes from the Kilas Yaakov. This is what you say, yeah? It says the Kilas Yaakov and the Rashba, because the Rashba learns that the ikar of the hischayvus is what? Akirah. And the lashon is only a tnai, yeah? What does the Rashba say? Tosafos says that the pasuk of al yeitzei ... akirah. So, nachon, what's the svara? What? According to Tosafos, the al yeitzei, al yeitzei ishin kaimai mashma d'akirah, so therefore, so the kluta and the whole business and the whole sugya is only a sugya in akirah. And I mean, forget kluta, I mean akirah. And this that we learn daled al daled, mimkomoi has to be al yeitzei. The din that mimkomoi teaches me of hotza'ah, that has to be from somewhere, is only by al yeitzei. It's on the akirah part. How does the Lashba? He says a little bit different. Techilas hama'aseh, misoif hama'aseh, and kol d'hu, not kol. Since this is techilas hama'aseh, therefore you need real business. But she'ein kein for the soif, that's putting it down, you don't need the real business, says the Rashba. That's how he explains the Gemara's kashya. Yeah? Let me just explain it one more time. Tosafos says the al yeitzei is akirah. Mimkoimoi is daled al daled. The din daled al daled is, there's only a din by what? Batzira. That's chosh. The Rashba says it's not from the pasuk. The Rashba says a svara. What's the svara? Keilaf hama'aseh, you need serious. Sof hama'aseh, which is the halacha, called who? Says the Kilas Yaakov, what does he mean? He means that whole Torah that we learned, that the ikar is what? Akirah, and the tnai to be chayiv is the hanacha. That's how the Kilas Yaakov learns over here. What does he mean by called who and not called who? What does that mean? What is called who? What does that mean? Huh? What? It means called who. Called who. Do you remember Rashi on amud aleph and Tosafos on amud aleph, chashuv and not chashuv, right? Remember? Rashi learns that if it's less than daled al daled, what's the yesod? It's not called chashuv. Tosafos learns when it's less than daled al daled, it's not called makom. Yeah? Rashba is saying, called who. It's not chashuv. Because the Rashba was learning that the kasha of the Gemara was not on the din of makom, but it's a din in the din of daled, because the whole sugya was daled. Meaning, how did this sugya begin? How did I explain this sugya began? The sugya begins, kluta k'mi shehuncha, you have the hanacha, but what don't you have? You don't have the— Daled. Once you don't have the daled, then what is the whole chisaron? Rashi tells me it's a chisaron in chashivus. Mameila, the Rashba, l'shitasei, comes along and explains, therefore I believe that the chiluk between techilah v'sof is a chisaron. Mashenkein Tosafos. Tosafos never learned that the sugya was a sugya of reshus, because Tosafos doesn't learn like Rashi, reshus. Tosafos learned that the sugya is you have a halacha, but you have a halacha into a makom patur, you need reshus in order to make the din of what? Hanacha to be chayiv. V'al yeitzei ish mimkomoi becomes a chisaron when it's not a makom daled, because you're lacking in makom, and at the same time he wants v'al yeitzei ish mimkomoi. The makom, where is the chiyuv? Only in the akirah. That's the chiluk between the Rishonim. Now I know I'm talking Chinese to you. You like it, huh? ... and p'tur kemeisha hunchar badis. That's the beginning of the Gemara.

The body, it goes together, hand in hand, yad b'yad, yeah? Because רבי עקיבא holds you don't need daled al daled, and kluta k'mi shehuncha goes hand in hand. All of a sudden the Gemara here starts saying, kluta k'mi shehuncha, you don't need daled. Maybe that's all in halacha. Maybe l'akirah this is not true. Maybe it's only a halacha. Yeah, so far so good, this is the Gemara, right? Rabbi Akiva. Achsav omer haGemara, ulay ze davka b'hanacha v'lo b'akirah. This is the Gemara here. Yeah, daled, it's only a... By akirah what? You will need daled. So, so. And by akirah you'd need it. And therefore it's not an answer to our Mishnah anymore, right? Only answer? Because in our Mishnah it has to work both ways via akirah is daled al daled. Okay. I come along and I say like this: let's analyze the Gemara's kasha. When the Gemara says that it will only be good for hanacha and not for akirah, I say to myself, one second. If it's hanacha, then the akirah has to be the same. I mean, how do you split? I mean, what are you splitting? If let's say a guy would come and make akirah from this hanacha, you'll say that that guy made hanacha, you didn't make an akirah. What does that mean? What does it mean? So this is a kasha that everybody asks, and עד כדי כך that the Rishonim try to find svarot. Is it from a pasuk? Is it from here? L'chalek between akirah and hanacha. In svara it's very difficult to mechalek between akirah and hanacha. Okay. So then I come along, I say to you like this: let's tackle seeing what does it mean that Rabbi Akiva learns you don't need daled. What does it mean? And with this maybe I can understand why, how it works only for hanacha, but it won't work for akirah. So I say like this: there's many stadim in the Gemara. There's one side in the Gemara, which is kluta k'mi shehuncha, that it's mamish like it's hunach al gabei karka, and therefore Rabbi Akiva is coming and saying, loi b'inan, makom daled al daled. That's how you read the Gemara, right? Rabbi Akiva, who learns that kluta k'mi shehuncha works, so obviously loi b'inan makom daled al daled, because you have the makom daled al daled. That's one way to learn the Gemara, right? That's right. Since it's k'mi shehuncha, huh? What? Even if it's not. I'm saying, since we're considered k'mi shehuncha, since it's k'mi... Again, if the Gemara learned that it's k'mi shehuncha literally, then we're back to the original question that it is daled al daled. So what's the diyuk of the Gemara that you don't need daled al daled? So there's a few terutzim that we could say in this Gemara. Teretz number one we could say in this Gemara is it's only k'mi shehuncha. Only k'mi. And this, that even Rabbeinu Chananel says b'karka, it's only damya. Remember we learned this? And therefore it must be watzmucha, that still you don't need daled. Okay. What if you learn it mamish mamash? No, no, because you taka see you don't need daled. No, the first question won't make sense. I'm not answering the first question. I don't know, that doesn't answer the question yet. We don't know yet. We're just pointing out, what does it mean that you don't need daled? Or there's another way we can say. We can say like this: when we say, Kluta k'mi shehuncha, it is kehunah. You do have a hanacha over here, but you don't have daled al daled. It's not a hanacha al daled al daled, which means that the Gemara's sugya was never if it's hunach or not hunach, because Rabbi Akiva learns you do need hanacha. Just not on daled al daled. And was the raya, okay? Not pshat Rabbi Akiva holds you don't need hanacha al daled al daled. Was the raya? Because if you learn kluta is k'mi shehunach, the hanacha's here. Rabbi Akiva doesn't make sense. Hanacha on daled al daled is hanacha nowhere. Where? On what? Yes, so that's the other Rishonim's kashya. Where's the case? You don't have a case. Yeah, but the point is, what exactly does the Gemara mean when it says loi binan daled?

What does it mean? אי תנוך. The answer is, even if it's tchunah, but the daas is missing. You don't have the daas. It's tchunah without daas. That's what ... mechudash. Okay. Now, after this, okay, we go and we take it back to our Gemara, and our Gemara says maybe it's only by hanacha and not by akirah. So then what turned into the shaila now? The shaila was never don't you need or do you need hanacha. Hanacha you have here always. The whole question is going to be how much place does hanacha have to be on. So then I could be mechalek, and I can come and say, munach it is, l'gabei chiyuv I'm chayiv because I put it down, but since I wasn't oker it from a makom, therefore I could come and say that the akirah I'm not going to be chayiv. Again, what? That, I mean, we learn from a pasuk. There's a halacha of makom daled. If you learn that you don't have the hanacha at all, so then the kashya is that you don't have the akirah, that you don't have the hanacha, and if you have the hanacha, you have the akirah. You can't split the two and say I have and I don't have. If I have the hanacha, then I have the akirah, and if I don't have the hanacha, I don't have the akirah. But if you learn I always had that halacha anyway, but the shayla is a tenai of daled. It could be the tenai of daled is only in the akirah and not in the halacha. That's the Gemara's kashya. So what am I telling you? Yeah, are you with me? You sure you're with me? If you learn that the pshat is akirah, it could be shulchan, you don't have a hanachah at all. And the chiddush of Reb Akiva is you don't need a hanachah at all. Then it can never be that it's only one way, right? Because if it's called a hanachah, then it has to be called an akirah, right? And if it's not called a hanachah, then it's not called an akirah. It has to be that if it's munach, then amoiker, and if amoiker, munach. The teretz is the sugya was never if there was a hanachah here. We know there's a hanachah here. What's the sugya? The condition of daled. That's the whole sugya, the condition of daled. Do you need the condition, the tenai of daled? Do you need the condition that it should be daled on daled? And the answer is, one maybe you don't need, one you do need. It's munach, but not al makom daled, and akirah has to be from a makom daled. And we asked the question before right now, I'm just also, just like it works for hanachah, it should work for akirah. But what's the svara? The svara is because if I made the akirah from the hanachah, I should be chayav, right? So the teretz is it could be true, it's a munach, but l'maaseh what's the geder, the tnaiim of akirah? It's nekar mimkomoi, but it's not nekar from a makom daled, which is a tenai in akirah. Yeah, but you could say if not munach, then you could say there was never nekar, and if it's munach, then it has to be nekar. But if you say there was never the she'eilah, the she'eilah was always, we know it's munach, we know it's nekar, but the question was on the condition of daled. Now we have to clarify what the condition of daled. Tosafos on amud aleph tells me that what's the condition of daled? Because it's halacha of al yeti ish mimkomo, and therefore you don't have makom. Notice that Tosafos over here says al yeti ish mimkomo, and therefore he says it's only by yetziah and not by hanachah. Okay, kein, the Rashba. The Rashba says I can't put it back into the pasuk. What do I want to put it back into the sevara? What's the sevara of chashivus? From Rashi we see that chashivus, right? Because Rashi says in sevara that less than daled al daled is not considered chashuv of hanachah. It's a hanachah, but it's not a hanachah chashuvah. The Rashba, who learns the sugya originally, includes the kamisha huncha like Rashi, is the same Rashba who learns that it has to do with daled al daled, and it's the same Rashba that learns that has to do with chashivus. Mash'ein kein according to Tosafos, Tosafos learns that doesn't do with chashivus. Tosafos learns that has to do with the makom. That's Tosafos, because what the sugya is—

That every time I have a kluta, it's into a makom, and therefore, and that's the chiddush. You need the—right. And therefore, you need the daled amos, and therefore Tosafos says, Vayeitzei shem kein. You don't have the daled amos. The Rashba's leshitaso, and the Tosafos. Simple. You with me? You got it? Okay, one more time. Should I see Eliezer do it again? Who learns like Rashi is going to say that, ein hachanami, you know what the Gemara's kasha was? Maybe the chashivus and that whole business that Rashi talks about is a din in akirah, it's not a din in manach. Mashenkin Tosafos. Tosafos never learned chashivus and not chashivus, not at all. Tosafos learned mimkomo, limkomo, mim—so therefore he wants to mechadesh al yeitzei is only akirah. The word al yeitzei mekomo is only akirah. In the pasuk it's only by akirah. Fine. How is this all leshitaso? Because Tosafos always learns that you need into a place, and therefore since you need into a place, Tosafos learns it's into the makom patur. Mashenkin Rashi, who always learns kluta always is into what? Makom chashuv. It has to be chashuv, meaning it has to be kluta k'mi shehuncha into a—so therefore if makom patur is not into a— Not necessarily. Just like over here we just said hanacha is gorea without the daled, right? Because it is hanacha, but it's not chashuv. It could be, per se, it is in makom patur, and it's hanacha, but it's not chashuv. Why is it not hanacha at all? Because Rashi learns it's not even called kluta. You know what I mean? But Tosafos, who learns that always kluta works into the place—Tosafos comes and says it works into the place with makom patur. But Rashi learns kluta doesn't have to be into the place. You know why? Because there's no din of place. Why? The whole din of daled is not because of the place; it's a tnai in the hanacha. But is it a hanacha if you don't have the tnai? Yes, but you're lacking the tnai. That's— That's the word. It's hanacha, but you're lacking a snai. You're lacking the snai, but why is not kluta kemi sheruchah? Why it's not what? One second. Why by akirah? This kluta kemi sheruchah. If these are nacha, but it's not kasher. It's just not kosher, that's all. No, but why is it, why is it like not? Like it's not going... That's the whole thing, because since in order for it to be called, the dinim of akirah and hanacha is only for the chashivus of the kli. It went to somewhere. Once it went into somewhere, so we can say kluta into a reshus also. There's no din of hanacha on something. Tosafos always learns you need the hanacha onto something. Al yedei makom. There's a din of makom. That's why Rashi's shitah say, and that's why Rashba learns like that. There you go. What? Tosafos, right? ... that it could be the Rabbanan also, that ho, kluta kemi sheruchah, meaning they can argue that just can be in on daled al daled. Tosafos. Rabbanan could hold kluta kemi sheruchah, and still hold, because they can still argue because they hold you need daled, that's all. Tosafos kashya. How do you know that Rabbanan argue on kluta? Tosafos gives two terutzim. Question one is— sorry, question one is what's Tosafos's kashya. Question two and three is what's Tosafos's first teretz, what's Tosafos's second teretz. I want you to do inside the two Tosafos which everybody promised me to do yesterday, which some of you didn't do. Anybody did the Tosafos yesterday? You did it? You did it? Okay, good. Now, I bring you over here like this. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. The pashup pshat in Tosafos, the pashup pshat in Tosafos is going to be that whenever you have a hanachah into a makom patur, Tosafos seems to say that the klutah into the makom patur is the reason why you're patur, because the klutah went into the makom patur, right? Went over, Tosafos says, and if the klutah, then it's a klutah into a makom patur. If you read the lashon of Tosafos, Tosafos is marchik a lot. He doesn't just say that; he says it has to do with moshit and moshit, right? You'll see. I bring out the sheets that, l'cheira, there's more to the Tosafos. Okay, now, you have to do the Tosafos Shanim, that little...

I just set them on the side, and then I bring you from the Tosfos Chaim, what's the chiluk between l'hachmir l'hakel? I asked you yesterday, what's the chiluk between l'hachmir l'hakel? So this is, the Tosfos Chaim speaks about it. What's the chiluk of l'hachmir l'hakel? The Taz says l'hachmir l'hakel. Tosfos Chaim says why. Why should it be? It works, it works. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. You saw the Tosfos Chaim. He wants to say that, yeah, because of the chiddushim in the Torah, ... l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel. Fine. All right, you'll see the Tosfos Chaim. It's in Yud Aleph, ois aleph. Now, there's a raya, there's a kasha from get. You know why? Because kerisus works by get. There's no ... l'hachmir. There's no ... by get. Okay. There's a very famous pshat that's in many sefarim. Rav Nachum said it over. It's famous. It's a famous Torah, that the reason why kerisus only works l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel, right, because the taich is that — I don't even know if it's so much l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel — but the taich is that the kerisus could undo — I'm sorry, it's not enough to undo the first akirah. You had an akirah, right? Now you want to say kerisus, right? You want to say kerisus can be shoresh. So what's the shaylah? We should say it l'hakel and l'hachmir. It's not enough to undo the first akirah. It'll be enough to mechayev you, something like that. In other words. This is what they say. That's how they explain this. That the reason why klutza doesn't work, l'hako, because it never undoes the original akirah. Whatever the klutza does, they can't undo the original akirah. Somebody saw this slide; they'll bring it down now. Same teretz. All right, same teretz. Now, that brings you two kashas on the whole sugya of klutza, which is unbelievable. One from Reb Akiva Eiger, and one from the Noda B'Yehuda. Reb Akiva Eiger is raising a kasha. He says like this: when you throw something, right, from one reshus to another reshus, at a certain point you have a place where it's reshus harabim, reshus hayachid, right? Right. The cheftz is here. You saw the kasha, because you saw it, and then you bring the Reb Akiva Eiger's kasha, right? The Reb Akiva Eiger's kasha. Let's say you have a cup. I'm throwing it, right? So every step of the way is klutza, klutza, klutza, klutza. Right here is the window, which makes reshus hayachid, reshus harabim. So right here it's klutza, so half the cheftz is in reshus hayachid and half the cheftz is in— Now that it continues, it's klutza again, right? So it comes out that the akirah was from a place where it's half and half, which is patur. Oh my God. How does klutza work? Famous kashas, Reb Akiva Eiger's kashas. No, but every— here's the question, but every time that he makes the klutza stop, stop— That's when zorek. That's every time a person zorek, right? So what happens is akirah, hanachah, akirah, hanachah, akirah, hanachah, right? So there's no— Every time you throw it out the window, the last akirah and hanachah before it left was when the cheftz was in two reshuyos at the same time. And akirah from such a... from when the cheftz is in two places, right? But you don't even have rov every second, you know what I'm saying? But before the rov, before it got to the rov one way, I mean, at the second that it was half and half, it was a split second that's half and half, right? It's a second of a second that it's half and half. I understand rov would go one way, but till you got to the rov of the one way, and a split second it's half here, half here, at that split second the akirah and hanachah, from the klutah, is from a chatzi-chatzi. The Avnei Nezer says like this: on the din of klutah, the Gemara wants to say that it's dafka from an akirah—I'm sorry, dafka for hanachah and not for an akirah, right? That's the Gemara's question. Says the Avnei Nezer, how can the Gemara even ask this crazy question? Now why? The Gemara's kashya.

The ... how he has to be against this kasha. He does. Unbelievable. Yeah. No, but the point is, you see the mind of a genius. He takes apart all the cases. He says, kluta, like he does. ... is another problem, kluta. What's the problem, kluta? says ... These type of questions. ... like a rishon. No, thanks. It was a genius. Now, ... is already a kasha. Yeah, ... is already a kasha. You throw something out of your house, right? Says the Gemara that there should be a halachah of kluta k'mi shehuncha, only l'gabei the hanachah, not l'gabei the akirah. Gemara's question. She says, I have a very big problem, he says. Why? I'm throwing something out of my house, right? Every second there's a kluta, right? Every second's a kluta, נכון? So every second's a kluta, one second. So then it has to be that, but there's an akirah also, right? But I thought if akirah, it's not going to work. It comes out that you had the hanachah and you don't have the akirah, so how can the Gemara...? You're throwing something out of your house, right? There's kluta, kluta, kluta, kluta. So there was hanachah. Now there has to be, but it keeps on going, so there's no akirah from the hanachah, right? And since it's my ma'aseh... Who? No, it's flying through the air, so it's kluta. Why do they say kluta, kluta, kluta, right? And the Gemara said that it only works for the hanacha, so it means it's kluta. Now from here, from the akirah, it won't help me for an akirah, right? Because it's not daled amos. So then I never did an akirah from the makom daled amos, so Gemara's kasha is, you never chayav. How can the Gemara ask? It can only work one way. How else does it work? Kluta, kluta, kluta. What's the teretz? This one you learn like the Rashba, all these kashas fall away. You know why? Because the Rashba learns when does kluta start? Only towards reshus acheres. Kluta is not b'oser reshus, so the whole kluta anyway started later. If you learn like the Rashba, all these kashas are kashas. Because according to the Rashba, only the kluta only starts later anyway. It only starts once—even though akirah is half-half, it's not a kashya. I don't know why Rabbi Akiva Eiger doesn't bring down the Rashba. Oh, so maybe you could say kluta on the half. That's what I was clarifying. Kluta—what does kluta mean? It doesn't work that way. No, because what's he— it was kaylit, it took it. I'm clarifying, I'm clarifying, I don't know, I'm saying, I hear. Is this a stira? What's the kashya? You need half-half. The minute it goes out, that's when kluta starts. Rabbi Akiva Eiger is learning kluta starts the whole time, so the kluta is the moment that—every second is kluta, including the last second. And the last second is the problem. I'm saying the kluta didn't start till after it left anyway, according to the Rashba. What do you mean after? But once it's klutah, it's a different reshus already. But klutah is a different reshus, so it shouldn't be chayav. That's right. That's what I'm telling you. The Rashba learns the klutah doesn't start in the house. Where does it start? It can only start once it went into another reshus. Klutah is only l'reshus acheres. It's still akirah. Who? It's still an akirah and still an akirah. I'm telling you that there was never, there was never munach, munach, munach, and akirah from that. Why not? Because it starts later. The klutah starts in the next reshus. That's right. In the house it's never klutah. It's not in the house flying then. Right. When it flies out of the house, it's never klutah. While it's flying into the reshus harabim— No, it goes to another reshus. Once it's flying from the reshus hayachid to the reshus harabim, right, Rabbi Akiva's question is, at the second that it's half in the house, half out of the house, there's klutah, and the klutah then becomes a klutah of half and half. Yeah, but this— Because half and half. So I'm telling you it never starts here, because in the klutah, according to the Rashba, when does it start? It starts really where? Reshus acheres. So he's asking me very good. You're not right, because l'maaseh maybe it's half a klutah.

And if it's not klutah, okay, ... but this ... I'll try to tell you, because the klutah is not going to work till it leaves. And the piece of klutah is that it was kalut in a different reshus. The way I explained to you klutah, I'm telling you it didn't start. The whole klutah procedure doesn't start till it left the window of the house. But it's muna anyway. It's muna anyway. Why not? So muna. ... Okay, second kasha is, I'm throwing it from the house outside. Every second it stops, and it goes, it stops and it goes. Outside? Inside the house. Inside. It stops right now. A person threw from reshus hayachid to reshus harabim, derech of a reshus harabim. I'm saying, so he's from one house to another house, but while it's flying, it's stopping, no? But that's not the kasha of avnei nezik. The kasha of avnei nezik is in the house. The klutah starts from the house, so then you had an hanacha. Where? In the house. Right? So now the problem is that how does the akirah work? Because the akirah is an akirah from a klutah. Well, actually he's right. The avnei nezik's kasha could have been on the outside. Yeah. The avnei nezik's kasha could have been. Even on the klutah, you don't need the case of the house, because even if from here it never got into the other reshus. Right. You’re chayav anyway. It’s pashut from the house. It’s pashut can’t be from the outside, because you’re not chayav anyway. You’re chayav. What does he want? What is he asking? He’s asking you should rather be chayav because once it was closed in the house, but when it left, an akirah can’t be from a kelutah. I’m telling you. I’m telling you, don’t say Rashi, don’t start. Don’t say Rashi with this whole business, don’t start. I’m telling you. He’s asking for a kashya. It’s not a kashya. He’s asking unless he’s asking. Rashi explains it פשוט. You threw from one reshus hayachid to another, and there was a shutafim. So the Gemara wants to say you’re chayav, right? The Gemara, maybe it only works one way, not two ways. It works for hanachah, but it doesn’t work for akirah. What does this mean? Meaning, you can have a hanachah less than daled. But akirah from there, says the Gemara, won’t work. Says, I don’t see the case then. You’re throwing it out of the house. You have a kelutah. Every second it’s falling in the house, and you’re telling me that an akirah from that won’t work. So then you don’t have akirah and hanachah anymore. You don’t have akirah. This akirah, the last akirah, the last minute we left the house, was no akirah. That’s… But can I ask you a question? This time I'll let you go. Ready? Learn on your own. The Kli says in ... He brings it, the ... He says there's two chesronos, and there's two mailos, so to speak, in klutza. Meaning, there's two problems in klutza takes care of two problems. And this is something that we spoke about, we touched on it, and I saw it in Kli Yakar. First thing says in Kli Yakar is that it's not munach. The klutza makes it like it's laying. And the second problem is it's moving. It's not nach. Oh my God. So klutza takes care of that. It is and it's not. Again, there's one problem that you need akirah and hanachah. That klutza takes care of that. So in Kli Yakar, then there's another problem, that it has to stop. And we spoke about that. Okay, this is what I want you to prepare. If you understand this, good. It answers all the above kashas. So should this Kli Yakar well, you can answer all the kashas. Again, you can answer the ...

The whole business. I have a ... The whole business. ... One is that you need hanachah, and one is that you need that it should stop. Who promised? Why you need it? But it's no what. What? What did you say? Klutz is care of what? Make two things. Very important halachah. Someone to be a posek. One: to be klutzah. You know the answer is? A, ... B, ... which is a meniach, which is a nach, that it's not flying through anything. ... It has to be on something, ולא באוויר. If, let's say, the wind would hold it back, the wind would hold it back, ... It would also be ... Yeah? Then ... ... You see that you don't need it should rest, because ... ... It has to be on something. ... If let's say the wind would hold it back, ... like the lashon of the Rach, or it's klutzah doesn't mean it has to be al gabei karka. Like we spoke. Okay, go, go, go. Learn, learn the ...