Shabbos 3a: The Status of an Extended Hand, Karmelis, and Returning an Object

Transcript

Therefore, lo kansu Rabbanan. Lemata miyud, saying to the shutafim, kansu Rabbanan and they made it into a karmelit. Let's see the lashon of Rashi. Says Rashi like this: Lemata miyud, right? The person stuck his hand out, right? Simple, a person stuck his hand out. It's lemata miyud, kansu Rabbanan. Lema'alah miyud, look at it. I told you over the Rimah, where is the exact opposite. And when it's lema'alah miyud, asur. When it's lemata miyud, it's mutar. That's how the Rimah explains. So let's see how Rashi learns. Says Rashi, no shh. Lema'alah miyud, d'avir makom patur hu, kisnan bazorek. Hazorek da'amar b'kotel, lema'alah miyud patur, k'zorek b'avir. It's a makom patur. Hu patur, v'lo hava reshut harabim lema'alah miyud. Hilkach lo kansuhu d'lav issura avid. They weren't koneis him because he didn't do anything. It's a makom patur. Comes along the Ramban, bet Yosef, and he asks an interesting question. So it comes out, pashat yado lachutz, right? There's a whole tzad in the Gemara: karmelit, not karmelit. What happens if a guy would be pashat yado lachutz to a karmelit? What would be his halacha? Could he bring it back? I mean, the same— no, the Gemara says a guy stuck his hand out and turned into a karmelit. So the whole shaylah is, could you bring it back, right? What would be in the same exact case? What would be the same exact case if he stuck his hand out into a karmelit? Oh, oh, oh. ... Here. So, you stuck your hand into a ... The Gemara says your hand became a karmelit. Yeah, so that halacha, you're not bringing your hand back. If it's a karmelit, should you bring your hand back? No. But what happens if you tack it into a karmelit? It's the same thing. What you made this into, you did it. You did it into a karmelit. What would be the halacha? So what if a chacham make it, it's a karmelit, and now it's a karmelit, you can't stick your hand back in. So it means from a karmelit you can't bring it back in, right? I'm asking if he did it into a karmelit. But what are they asking? Write the question. Adam hotzi yado lachutz, u'kesuv b'Gemara, asur l'hachzirah, asur yado l'karmelit. Aval mai b'emes hotzi yado l'karmelit? It should be the same din, right? Okay, so you want to look at Rambam Yosef. Rambam Yosef is in siman shin mem chet. Rambam Yosef in siman mem chet, okay, wants to say ... from here it would make you into a karmelit, right? So therefore it has to be, if you're motzi into a karmelit, you're not going to bring your hand back in. Okay, that's what it follows through, right? Kenal. This is what Rambet Yosef says. So this is question number one. The Rashi, dibur hamaschil, l'ma'ata miyud — but l'ma'ata miyud, look it up. He brings from this Rashi. Maran Bet Yosef brings from this Rashi. Go ahead, Nu. ... Lashon haRambam. This is lashon Rashi. Aval b'motzi, lo gazru. ... You see the Beis Yosef? Says Maran Bet Yosef. Right here, v'nira, v'nir'eh nami. D'lo ne'emar dvarim eilu ela b'motzi l'reshut harabim. But this sugya is only what? He took it to reshut harabim. ... Lashon haRambam, v'lashon Rashi. Now what's the lashon Rashi he's referring to? This Rashi, right? Because what does Rashi say? Hilkach lo katzu ... l'ma'ata miyud, reshut harabim hu.

Kansu Rabbanan, mishavyu karmelis, d'lo ledrei, right? So when is l'mata mi-yud davka? Rishus harabim. So the halacha is only by Rishus harabim, right? Then achanami a karmelis, why? Because then it will turn out to be gezeirah l'gezeirah. It will turn out to be a gezeirah l'gezeirah. I'm saying, it should have been that way, but he says from Rashi's mashma that it's not that way. And the reason is because gezeirah l'gezeirah, right? Because since the whole din of karmelis in the first place is only a gezeirah anyway, so to be aser to stick your hand back in is only a gezeirah also. It's a gezeirah l'gezeirah. Oh, so let's see. ... The Chazal gave it a din karmelis. But why did they make it into a karmelis? Why? Because it's because of the reshuyos. I understand, but l'maaseh it starts with the fact that you put your hand into Rishus Harabim, so therefore they made your hand into a karmelis to aser you. I understand, so good. Yeah, I understand, but l'gabei the karmelis... Right? ... Where do you have the lashon Rashi again? Okay, guys. Forget—so this is the Beis Yosef. He wants to say that from Rashi in the sugya's mashma that the pashut of the discussion is in Rishus Harabim. From the fact that the Gemara says, l'ma'atei miyud, l'ma'aleh miyud, and Rashi speaks about Rishus Harabim, says Maran Beit Yosef, you see from here it's only reshus harabim. That's what you see. Even though you write from Rashi, you can make a diyuk, but l'maaseh the Gemara in Rashi has a discussion, reshus harabim. Okay, so you have it. This is question number one. Rashi gives a mashma l'maateh miyud. The l'maateh miyud, reshus harabim, who—consur Rabbanan. Ma medayek Maran Beit Yosef from that lashon that l'maateh miyud is reshus harabim, and the answer is that to be meikel it, it would be mutar. That to be meikel it would be mutar, you see? Ma medayek, and the answer is, motzi yadei l'kula mutar l'hachzira. Comes along the Magen Avraham here in siman shin mem-chet, and he wants to say, when did the Beit Yosef say mutar l'hachzira by a karmelit? That's only by a shogeg. But by a meizid, even Maran Beit Yosef will be maskim that you're not allowed to bring it back. Okay, but what's the nafka mina? What's the nafka mina? He wants it like this: by a shogeg, the pshat is it's only a gezeira. Not—chein, by a meizid it's a knas. Same with Rashi. That's right, so what is this? It's no—it's eino shayach ligzor, aval lo shayach liknos. Liknos. So he says that's pshat: gezeira ligzeira we're only going to say by a shogeg, but when it's taka meizid, even Maran Beit Yosef will be maskim, says Magen Avraham. So that's what we spoke about, so we have to see on the Magen Avraham more. Again, let's get out the facts, and then we'll be mefalpel on the facts. Again, Avraham tells the Rosh Yeshiva shlita, made a good diyuk. What's the diyuk? That Rashi brings down in the boia baya. Yours, they are pshut l'rshut acheres. You can come and say, rshut acheres could even be a karmelit, it could be anything, right? But l'maaseh, says Maran Bet Yosef, the context of the Gemara and the Rishonim is reshut harabim. L'mata mi'ya reshut harabim, l'maalah mi'ya reshut harabim, right? They're discussing in context of what? Of reshut harabim. We have to say the din of motzi, asur l'hachzir, is only by a reshut harabim. But if you took it into a karmelit, even though what's the reshut harabim? The issur to be machzir is because of karmelit, because they made it into a karmelit. Karmelit, that's called yam mutar. Why? Gezeirah l'gezeirah. Bah magan Avraham, and he says like, when do we say gezeirah l'gezeirah? That's only if you took it out b'shogeg, because then it's not a knas, it's a gezeirah. The gezeirah shema you might complete a melachah, or you might do other melachos on Shabbos, so therefore, you know, we ask on gezeirah, then it becomes gezeirah l'gezeirah.

Maseches Meizis says, Magen Avraham, in ... said that he would agree that even to a kamut, asur latzira. So that's question number two. Magen Avraham mechalek with Reb Yosef Anau between shogeg l'meizid. Ma hachiluk? And like I just explained to you, shogeg will taka be mutar l'hatzir; meizid, Magen Avraham will agree. Ma hachiluk if a tam hu shenotnim din kamut, tam mishum knas and mishum gezeira? And the answer is very simple. This is the Magen Avraham, because if it's mitam knas, he says you can make a gezeira l'gezeira, but if it's mitam gezeira, you can't make a gezeira l'gezeira. What's the difference? Come on. It's very pashut, because there's no problem, gezeira l'gezeira, not gezeira, knas. Once it's knas, not gezeira l'gezeira anymore; it's a knas. Now, with this, I think it's very important to understand how the Magen Avraham learns the teshuvas Shenos Tosafos. Remember the Tosafos says, Mi kantsuha or mi asruha? And I asked you, what is the difference between the two nuschaos? I asked, what's the difference between two nuschaos, right? I told you that the two nuschaos is: do we give it a din kamut, or do we stam asru itself? But you see the Magen Avraham is learning even in the kamut, there's one din of gezeira and there's one din of knas. Shogeg l'meizid. Yeah. That was the Gemara's question, how could ... the Magen Avraham? That's really the shaila. Is it a knas of karmelis or is it a gezeirah of karmelis? It depends what girsa you use. If you use the girsa, ... then the pshat is it's an issur d'Rabbanan. Or mikansua, and that's the pshat. I mean, these two nuschaos represent the machlokes haRambam. That's what it is. The Maggid Mishneh wants the word that karmelis could be sometimes knas and could be sometimes gezeirah, and it depends if it's shogeg or meizid. That's what I got from this Maggid Mishneh. And it's both. It is a knas and it is a gezeirah, l'gabei karmelis. That's, l'choirah, this Maggid Mishneh. Yeah? Because it's a knas. Why don't we say gezeirah l'gezeirah? What would be the gezeirah l'gezeirah? No, but that's why they made it into a karmelis, to asser you on the first gezeirah. Let me explain to you. The way it works is we wanted to somehow forbid you on the first thing, but we couldn't do it, because it wasn't a akirah. Like we said, it was lacking an akirah. Now you have the akirah. So it's not too—it's remained into a karmelis to make you over the gezeirah, that's all. But the Maggid Mishneh is learning that no, there's two things: there's a knas of karmelis and there's a gezeirah of karmelis. That's what I wanted to show you. From this Maggid Mishneh we learn—someone asks you, what is this din karmelis? Is it a gezeirah or is it a knas? So the first thing is you'll show him Tosafos that says there's two girsaos, and then you tell him the Maggid Mishneh, well, it depends. If it's shogeg or meizid. On the shogeg, what is it? It's gezeirah. And on the meizid it turns into a knas. Now, huh? Also, I want to show you, could Rashi learn like this? Because what does Rashi bring the case mikan? What was the beis yaisef working on? Which lashon? The lashon is, reshus haRabim hu, kansu Rabbanan, right? Yes. This is why it makes it also. Arop, arop, alamais. Huh? No, I'm telling you, someone show you meis, right? And then Rashi uses the lashon, mikan. But on that he says that to a karmelis will be mutar because gezeirah l'gezeirah. Because once he uses the word kansu, there's no gezeirah l'gezeirah, I thought. There's no ... anymore. How did this— I started this Rashi, right? That's the pshat on the Magen Avraham. He starts with this Rashi, right? He brings—

The Rashi says the word, konsu. I insist that you can't start playing games that it becomes... If Rashi used the word, konsu. So you see clearly Rashi used the word, konsu. Now this the Beis Yosef wants to come and say that what's the halacha? That into a karmelis, you'll be mutar. Into a karmelis will be mutar. And the Magen Avraham is saying not that way. On the tzad that it's a karmelis, into a karmelis will be asur. The Beis Yosef is based on this Rashi. It's where it's coming from, lashon Rashi, right? Lashon Rashi is knas, and af al pi kein, we don't say what? Gezeirah li'gezeirah. You understand what I'm talking about? It's not Chinese to you? It's very simple, right? Okay, so let's do it inside again. ... karmelis ... knas ... gezeirah li'gezeirah. And the answer is, gezeirah li'gezeirah. If it's mi'tam knas, then we can say gezeirah li'gezeirah, karmelis will be asur. If it's mi'tam gezeirah, then karmelis will be mutar, because gezeirah li'gezeirah. Good? Ask the ... again ... and the answer is very simple: mi'asruha, mi'kansuha. Meaning, that's the question. Magen Avraham's question is the question of the Gemara: is karmelis a knas, or is karmelis a gezeirah, l'gabei gezeirah li'gezeirah? Now, mai ... Magen Avraham ... the chilukim in lashon Rashi, ... and I'm this is the Beis Yosef's diyuk. How can the Magen Avraham say no? By knas, the Beis Yosef will be masik, karmelis asur. He says the case of karmelis mutar from this Rashi. What's he talking about? Okay, so soon see. Now, how does the Rosh Yosef, the Pri Megadim, learn? I wrote the Pri Megadim, so you should think I'm not some learning Rosh Yosef with you, but I'm learning Pri Megadim with you. Pri Megadim says, Shatn the Beis Yosef: ... What does he learn in the shitas Maran, the Beis Yosef? And the answer is, ... and ... makes no difference. Mutar l'hotzi u'l'hachzir l'karmelis. I'm saying, to put your hand in and bring it back, you're allowed to do it into a karmelis. Beautiful, no? ... It's only reshus harabim. Thanks. ... The question is, are you allowed to bring your hand back into a karmelis? That's the question. ... says, stick your hand in, stick your hand out. There's no problem into a karmelis. Yeah, but you're not allowed to drop it in. You're only allowed to put your hand in and out. Okay, now, your rabbi's question on this Rashi. Your rabbi has a major kasha. Are you allowed to be moshit from reshus to reshus derech karmelis? No. Questioning Gemara later on. Rashi later on says, ... he says clearly that it's not allowed to be moshit mireshus hayachid lireshus harabim derech karmelis. Derech karmelis. He asks a major kasha. According to the Beis Yosef, that there's no problem to be moshit into a karmelis... Because it's zero l'zero, so what's the problem? Huh? What are you saying? What are you saying? Yeah, but you are meniach. Let's see the Rashi inside. Rashi, dibur hamaschil, kuf aleph amud beis, loy nitzricha.

A person, maishit yado with a karmelis, is there a problem with it? No. No problem. Karmelis is this problem. The yad turning into the karmelis, that's the problem. But otherwise, I'm karmelis is mutar. Karmelis, according to Pri Megadim and the Rebbi Akiva Eiger, meizid, shogeg, you're allowed to do it. Of course, of course, you can give a tes meizid and shogeg. You don't like the... A pashut. Rambam Beis Yosef. Rambam Beis Yosef learns that you're allowed to be metaltel your hands into a karmelis and bring it back. But you didn't take; you only take a derech avir, so what's the problem? Maybe karmelis is not a problem there. According to Rambam Beis Yosef, we don't care. Rambam is long on Eliyahu Rabbah. He says this teretz. Says Eliyahu Rabbah a very interesting teretz. And when do we say that a person's allowed to take it back? I'm sorry, to take it back. Notice that we say that a karmelis is mutar to take it back. Mashenkein, to bring it to a reshus harabim, through reshus harabim, derech karmelis, that's mutar, and that's asur. And he says his reason: v'hisyavda machshavto. That's Eliyahu Rabbah's lashon: hisyavda machshavto. Let me ask you a kasha. According to Eliyahu Rabbah, let's say I stuck it out to a karmelis, and I wanted, for that reason, I wanted to air out. I wanted to air out. That would be asur. I'm going to Eliyahu Rabbah. It would be another chiddush halacha. I don't know. What is a mezuzah? Yeah. Mahu kushyato, kushya d'Rav Rabah mi-mashkachas Rashi l'kaman, loshit meshut yachid lishut rabim derech karmelit. Why derech karmelit? L'choira, who cares? According to the Rambam itself, derech karmelit is never asur. There's never a problem with derech karmelit. All right. Which one? This Rashi? Mashma's derech karmelit muteres, says Rambam. Lashon Rashi is mashma muteres. Kuf aleph, patur. The Gemara there says that you don't have to be choshesh that it's going to go derech karmelit, derech avir karmelit. So you see that derech avir karmelit is not asur. So now, mahu tirtza d'Rabah, yesh lechalek bein ladur yadui l'bein litein bechatzer acheres? The answer is there's a chiluk. And what's the taam hachiluk? And the answer is because asavda machshavta. Yis'avda machshavta. Now keep the information in mind, because tomorrow we're going to come and show you how it's nogea l'maaseh. So therefore, here's melachah. I'm asking you, what happens if it's melachah Shabbos and put it there? Oh, so we have to see this. This we have to work on. We'll see tomorrow. Now, Tosafos has a shita. If you look, Tosafos' shita is like this. Our sugya. Kan l'maalah mi-yud. V'im tolma'ah l'maalah mi-yud, lechatchilah nami mutar. What do you mean? It's stam mutar. D'ha b'makom patur. What's— The verse is ... למעלה מי' — what's the chiddush? I need a chiddush, mutar אפילו למעלה מי'. Mutar, it's פשוט mutar. Yeah, it's mutar. So the question is, mai קא משמע לן? What's the chiddush? Nothing. What's the chiddush? Yesh לומר there is a chiddush. What's the chiddush? דקא משמע לן, אפילו הוציאו מתחילה דרך מטה מי', even if he originally took it out למטה מי', מותר להוציאו למעלה מי', ולא קנסינן ליה. This would be asur. What does he do? He brings it back. He has to bring it back, the way it is.

Yes, that's a proof for. That's Tosafos. That's Tosafos. You will take it out from the... And let me tell you what the problem is. So the... Kol ha'olam, kol ha'olam makshim. Yeah, yeah. Kol ha'olam makshim she'eilah peshuta. When you learn this Tosafos, mashma that derech baka b'toras takanah mutar, right? Obviously the Tosafos holds shakla v'tarya, right? You know that that's not true lahalachah. You know that. You're aware of that. So then there's a chiddush in the Mishnah. Mahu kushya ha'olam Rabbanan d'Ben Azai. This you should know, you learned this in ... Savutzki. L'kamon, hei amud beis. Remember Ben Azai and the Rabbanan? Yeah. Jumping. ... Rabbanan d'Ben Azai, right here, the Rabbanan. A few lines later, if you're allowed to take derech makom patur, machlokes in the Gemara later. According to... Rabbanan hold you're not allowed to do it. Very good, very good. ... Okay. No. In the case tomorrow is like Ben Azai. Cool, b'azai. Yeah, whatever. The kasha is, question number using is: ... Rabbanan d'ben Azai, she'osrim l'havi mireshus l'reshus derech makom patur, they asser it, no? So what is Tosafos coming and saying that what's the chiddush is so mutar? Who says it's so mutar? What do you mean? Tosafos, you see derech reshus, derech makom patur becomes aser. Then you need a kamah answer for that. Tosafos over here word, Tosafos over here word, that there's no chiddush. There's no chiddush whatsoever by Moshi derech l'maalah miyud. It has to be up and down, up and down. What are you talking about? This is a very big chiddush. Rabbanan ben Azai hold you're not doing like derech makom patur. What are you talking about? Huh? Whatever it is, l'maaseh you can't do it's not a chiddush anymore. Because according to Rabbanan, l'maaseh if you're maavir derech makom patur, according to Rabbanan it's aser. Whatever it is, you can't come and say it's not a chiddush anymore when you put it to a makom patur. What do you mean? This is—makom patur is not mutar to be maavir. Whatever it is, so it's not a chiddush. Tosafos, it's not a chiddush. Tosafos has to be even like, I put it underneath and I bring it up. Yeah. But I say holds makom pטור. Finished. No, because it's not nogea right now. Right now we see from here clearly that Rabbanan hold derech makom pטור is asur. Everybody asks, what's Tosfos talking about? ... Yeah, that the Gaon speaks about. What happens? Yes. Come, come. Look it up. Shin nun hei, come. It's still for you. Rama, shin nun hei, seif gimel. Go ahead. Who's reading it? Nu, read ... Shin nun hei. ... Right? ... says the Rama like this: 'Hagah, v'yesh omrim, im beis hakisei l'maalah me'asarah, asur b'chol inyan.' Why? 'Ha'motzi mishus hayachid l'karmelis, derech makom pטור.'

Yes, sure, because it was pulled out. You went through from a falling, you know, from the cliff. The whole thing is ravanan. I hope you're mature enough to learn this seif in Shulchan Aruch without giggling like babies. You know, Briskers, they have a problem with the bathroom on Shabbos. Comes from here. You know where it comes from. I can't detail it for you, but I want you to imagine it, all right? That when you go, the plumbing, you know, that's the problem, you see? So where's the beis hakisei? It's l'maalah me'asarah, and it's mutar, because even though it ends up in a karmelis, but it went from reshus hayachid. You know, all cases are like this. All bathrooms are like this. Sure, sure. Here, so listen good. The kids are ma'aseh. Says the Rama that it's mutar, yeah? You don't ask me the kasha. Reshus hayachid, karmelis, and the thing is a makom patur, because it's l'maalah me'yud. The beis hakisei, says the Rama, it's mutar. Says the Rabbeinu HaGera, where does this come from? Where did he get this information from? You know what the answer is? You got to smell Tosis. Smell Tosis. ... Who? He's saying a case. Give me a case. Ten is about ... Twelve is ... Second floor. Second floor. How much is ...? Let's go by. Not now. We're not learning. This is basically. I want to show you ... Says the Rabbeinu ... Oh, that's it. Not now. We're not holding. Comes along, comes along the Gra. He says, where does all this come from? Yeah? He says like this. Says the Gra, says Rabbeinu Eliyahu, that our sugya is the raya. It comes from our sugya. Now let's look at question number Yud-Daled. ... you hear? ... the dvar of the mutar lehachzir l'maalah miyud, hainu ... משום שאינו יד קרמוס גמור. מה שאין כן בקרמוס גמור, באמת אסור, מהו ראיה ... תוספות. נו? That's the sugya, no? Yeah, but it came back. So what's he saying, no? The Gemara says like this, yeah: ויש אומרים דאם בית הכיסא למעלה מעשרה, שרי בחולין, שמותר. Why? דמותר שיכול לקנח דרך מקום פטור. דרך מקום פטור. I, Tosafos says that that's right. What's the bottom line? This is the same — it's not really the same question. It's against the Rabbanan. Because now it'll go through דרך מקום פטור. Right? That's the point. So Tosafos says our Gemara — see, this is where I got it from. You see? You see that our Gemara is teaching you that דרך מקום פטור is מותר. That's what you see from here. Oh, you want to read the Gemara? Read it, read it. You want to say it's not a ראיה. Why? Well... Okay, but Tosafos is kasha. What was Tosafos' kasha? Tosafos had a kasha: if it's למעלה מעשרה, of course it's מותר. Why is it מותר? דרך... and then it becomes a כרמלית. That's called פשיטא מותר, says the Gra. You see from here it's פשיטא מותר.

Go ahead, keep on reading. ... היום זה ברשות היחיד ... תאריך עיון. ... בנחלה ... ... גוף אחר ... ... למה ... ... אוקיי, got it? ... This. Our Tosafos. What is the Gra say from our Tosafos? Go ahead, Nu. The proof. ... hundred kushyos u'duchta. ... ha... ... gamur ... ... toch, toch, ... miyud, ... lo ... ... Exactly. That's what I want to show you. The Gra is saying that even in the sugya of karmelis, this is not a real karmelis. This has to be what? A fake karmelis. Since it's not a real kamus anyway, that's why Tosafos says his nekudah, l'maalah meyud is mutar, because it's not a real derech karmelis. It's not a real derech makom patur. It's not derech anything. Mameila it's not a stira from the Gemara. Mameila it's not a stira from the Gemara. And says the Rama, says the Gra, so the problem with this is you still don't answer the Rama. Why not? Because then what was Tosafos's kasha in the first place? Because that would be the chiddush. The chiddush is that it's not called a real karmelis, that's what the Gra wants to say. Again, he's saying like, the Rama is based on this Tosafos. That's what the Gra wants to say. How is it based on this Tosafos? On one hand, we have a problem that the Gemara says that derech makom patur, Rabbanan asru; derech karmelis, Rabbanan asru. It's not mutar. So mitzad sheini, we turn around, so how could Tosafos say clearly that derech makom patur is mutar? How could it be mutar? L'hotzi l'maalah meyud is mutar l'chatchilah. It's not true.

Says the Gra, you have to answer that a real makom patur and a real karmelis in the sugya, but this is not a real karmelis and not a real makom patur; it's not. And they only gave it a din k'ilu. That's what he means, the Gra. It's not a real—it's not a karmelis, gamur. Says the Gra, the only problem with this is that I'm back to the original Tosafos. What was Tosafos's kasha? There's no chiddush. There sure is a chiddush that this is not considered a regular karmelis. What was the kasha? It's patur; of course you're patur. There's no of course you're patur. Maybe the reason why you're patur is only because it's not a real karmelis, and it's taka chiddush l'olam haYehudi. Hundred kushyos l'dochta, says the Gra. The problem with this Tosafos is he says from... That's the goy, okay? We got it? You understand it, or you're just sleeping? Why sleeping today? You know the answer is? What's the raya to the psak of the Rama? Our Tosafos, right? What's the problem with this? The problem is, and I write you with him, איתא, הא דרב קושיא לדוכתיה. מאי קא משמע לן? הא אף על גב דגמר ומקני קניא גמורה. Then you're back to the same kasha again. What do you mean? Okay. There's a Rashba. It's a very nice Rashba. The Rashba brings down Tosafos, yeah? Ay says, אי דרך מקח פטור, and דרך מקח פטור should be aser. So the Rashba gives a teretz. He asks this kasha: אי דרך מקח פטור? Yeah, no? Go ahead, through the Rashba. Take out the Rashba. I want you the two terutzim he gives, and then we'll stop. Here, here. So go ahead, read the Rashba. Take out the Rashba. What did you just read? Oh, I should read now? That line, a very important line over here, yeah? Very important line. Read the line. Go ahead. Rashba. He brings Tosafos, yeah, and then he says, he says, יש מי ש... The Rav ... miyut .... ... miyut .... .... .... Right. No, but ... unbelievable. You know what? ... He didn't repeat, he adds an extra few words. .... .... The Rashba learns that you have to break up the case. When they hear this ..., it's not only a ..., it's a .... It comes out that you weren't machnis to a ... and brought back from a .... It works both ways. You took from a ... to a ... and from a ... to .... Read it again. Read it one more time. One more time. One more time. .... That's right. Can you bring it up? ... Put your hands up.

The Talmudist, no? ... Ride. From the serafim, not serafim. Your hand only can be karmelit, only in a serafim. ... No, no, no. Okay, okay, let me from the beginning. ... Ela shemutar lehachzirah, lehachzirah lemalah me'asarah. ... Mutar lehagbiah lemalah meyud, ... mishum delemalah meyud makom patur hu, umutar lehotzi mikarmelit lemakom patur. ... No, he gives the heter. ... What's the reason you're allowed to ...? It's different. ... What he's saying is, what he's poshut saying is that there's no zero here in the first place, since you're ... And that's not what he says. He says that it is karmelit. But a ta'us ... more than a ... is ... And we're supposed to. Tosafos is saying it was never a gezeirah. The whole gezeirah never started. The gezeirah never started when you discovered more than ten. That's what the ... says, but that's not what Tosafos. Machlokes if you would ... Rav says ... why? ... Right. ... But ... What happens when you brought it back? There was never yad kavul, right? You brought it back more than ten, so there was never yad kavul. That's pashut Tosafos. How I read the Tosafos was, you brought it out, ... There was never yad kavul, right? There wasn't the first place when you took it out, there wasn't. Yeah, but there was no yad kavul, the gezeirah hachzarah. The whole problem is ... so there was never yad kavul. Rav says no, there is yad kavul, but the way it works is, is the kavul is put into the ... You see it from one reshus to another reshus, from the karmelis to the ... and from the ... to the reshus hayachid. The way it's working, pashut, don't say it anymore. Right? Even though there was once a karmelis, but there was no ... in that karmelis. Tosafos says simple, there was no gezeirah. There's no such case. The whole problem of karmelis is it should come aser. Nothing. What do you mean? They never asked the yad. According to Tosafos, they never asked the yad. The pashut Tosafos, they never asked the yad. They never asked the yad. There's nothing wrong. There's still an issur of yad, but the problem is there's a way in halacha there's no problem. Because halacha is you're allowed to take from one reshus to another reshus. The pshat in the Rashba, understanding, according to Tosafos it's pashut it never turned into a karmelis. Mashenken according to the Rashba it turns into a karmelis, but then it's mutar because you're allowed to take from a karmelis to a makom patur. You don't see this Rashba? Who can explain this Rashba? Go explain. Talk to him. Tell him. To now. You're homework for today, your homework for today is this Rashba. And then we finish this. We finish. We'll go on, we'll go to the next. Either kuntz could be shulchan chadash, the next one, I'm not sure. Ask me myself. I want you to notice that one of the two sefarim of the Rashba is the Gra, but it's not called a gamur, it's not called a karmelis gamur. The Gra is in the Rashba, open Rashba. But I want you to listen to—

Carefully listen to that. What does the Rashba and Tosfos argue? Tosfos seems to learn, and what the gezeirah never applies. The Rashba learns the gezeirah applies, but the word is, it's anyway mutar in halacha, and he holds the teretz is very poshut. Tosfos learned, like I explained to you Friday, that the whole chumra is only there to make the issur, to make the issur. Yeah, to make it shvus acher, they should make the issur. So once it's not asur, then what's the point saying it's a chumra? If you're allowed to bring it back l'maalah miyud, even when I put ... it's still yachid. That's their shittah, that's what shetos say. That's what I tried to explain to you. I tried to explain to you the Rashba learns that since it's for real chumra, you can't have real chumra ... So Tosfos, we said even in the dimyon, we won't say chumra because l'maaseh you can't even have the gezeirah of chumra. The Rashba is saying that if it's ... you can't have a chumra, and the teretz, because he learns the real chumra. Once he learns the real chumra, so he has to learn the ... doesn't exist, doesn't exist. I'm saying just, so why is Tosfos? Tosfos learns we can't give you the gezeirah of chumra without ... chumra. That's the pshat Tosfos. Okay, that's the machlokes, the Tosfos and the Rashba. Okay, you homework is like this. What? Rashba. ... Do the sheetah. Okay, so let me just say what you have to do. Tomorrow. No, tomorrow, you'll soon see. Two inyanim. It's ... part and this part, and I'll show you how it's really all one thing. Okay? So what you have to do is the Rashba. You see the last question? Here. ... lama mutar. But, ... l'maalah miyud, like tishah derech makom patur, and the answer is, it works differently. It works that you took from a karmelis to a makom patur, okay? And the last question is, why does שתי רשויות of the Rabbanan like tishah ... l'karmelis? That's your homework for tonight, okay? You have two ... we spoke. Right? Kan l'maalah miyud, kan l'maalah miyud. L'maalah miyud, Rashi learns what? Mutar lachzir. L'matah miyud, asur lachzir, okay? Comes along Tosafos and שואל, even tomar l'maalah miyud l'chatchilah nami mutar. Yeah? L'maalah miyud, even l'chatchilah is mutar. D'havi makom patur, it's a makom patur. Meaning, peshita, mai ka mashma lan? When the Gemara says kan l'maalah miyud, meaning one of the braitot that says mutar is talking l'maalah miyud. We wouldn't need a braita for that, right? Does everybody understand the question? We wouldn't need a braita to tell me, peshita, peshita. Yesh lomar, deka mashma lan, afילו הוציאו מתחילה דרך מטה, and then he wants to bring it back l'maalah miyud, it's mutar. So I tell you, if you look at the Tosafot, the Tosafot leaves it at that. No. Kan l'matah, kan l'maalah, but if he did it l'matah, vichniso l'maalah, gam ken mutar. Hu masbir lo masbir, hu lo masbir. What's the pshat in Tosafos? Kepshuto, you have to say in Tosafos that the Kness wasn't settled here. L'matah miyud, kan patur. That's if you're machzir. L'matah miyud, l'maalah miyud lo kan patur. So there's never an inyan of here what? Oh, karmelis. But if you look, right, according to Tosafos, the teretz is l'maalah me'yud is never a karmelis. If I take it l'matah me'yud and I bring it back l'maalah me'yud, there's never. And m'meila, what's the pshat? There's no problem of karmelis. Oh, so why would I think, yeah? Because the Rashba says there is. If you take a look at the Rashba, the Rashba brings the same teretz of Tosafos, and he says a chiddush, because l'maaseh it's true that the yad is a karmelis, but it went from what? From a karmelis to a makom patur, and from makom patur ichnafta. That's how the Rashba answers Tosafos. So that's going to be question number one. Question number one is, what is the difference between Tosafos and Rashba? You don't have a sheet? You don't have one? How it works? No. He leaves it for my imagination.

Imagination to figure out why it's mutar. So what do I do? I say the most simplest pshat I could say, which is what? You know the reason why it's mutar? Because the knas of karmelis doesn't apply over here. Where you put it out, l'ma'alah mi'yud, the knas of karmelis applies. But where you did it l'ma'atah, that's pashut pshat, right? That's pashut pshat. The only reason why I speak this out is because you see the Rashba didn't learn like this, right? What's the pashut pshat in Tosfos? Since I did it l'ma'alah mi'yud, so there's no takanah of karmelis anymore, finished. Because l'ma'alah mi'yud is what? Makom patur. The Rashba says no. The Rashba says there is a karmelis here. But you have to keep in mind that a karmelis to a makom patur, a karmelis to bring it into a makom patur, that from a makom patur to bring it in is mutar. From a karmelis to a makom patur, you're right to say maskanah, you're right to say maskanah, but the difference between them is one learns there is karmelis here, and Tosfos learns there's no karmelis over here. The Rashba seems to learn that there's karmelis over here, ma she'ein kein Tosfos seems to tell us just the takanah doesn't apply over here. So we have to learn simply, why doesn't it apply over here? Because there's no karmelis. So I ask you, what is the explanation of the argument? Why do they argue? You think they argue because they like to argue? You think they argue because they're sitting here in olam simchah and everything that everybody says they have to argue about? No, that's not what it comes from. Obviously there's a different reason why they argue, and the reason must be like this. Rashba learned— That the takanah of karmelit is a real takanah, which means is the karmelit is a real karmelit. And since the karmelit is a real karmelit, what are you going to say? It's not, it is. I mean, it is. L'maaseh, there's a karmelit over here. L'mata me'Yud, there's karmelit. But the thing is, you can work it out. If I'm a karmelit from a patur, from a patur to bring it in is mutar. Technically speaking, the moment the hand leaves the reshus hayachid, it became a karmelit. Tosfos learns it's a karmelit. If I put it into a makom patur, then it's not a karmelit. No. But if I put it into reshus harabim, it's a karmelit. Says Tosfos, says the Rashba, so then how does it work here? There has to be that a karmelit is giving it to a makom patur, and from a makom patur it's coming in. There's no problem with that, of course not. It's a karmelit, nothing. No, it's nothing, right? That's the whole thing. It's from a karmelit to a makom patur, makom patur to a karmelit, a karmelit to a makom patur. Mashenkein Tosfos seems to say that the whole takanah of karmelit has only been gezeirah to what? To aser me to bring it back. The whole karmelit, the whole karmelit was a din to make it a reshus. You see, whatever the kafsa, the dain, whatever it is, but the point is it's only there legabei the chiyuv, if there's not going to be a chiyuv anyway. Karmelit, because it's not mamash all the halachos of karmelit. What I'm saying is, the diyuk of the Chof doesn't bother me, because we spoke, you can either give it a real din karmelit and still be called kar, because it's not regular karmelit. They gave it a din karmelis, but, you know what I'm saying, either it's real, it's really there, and those yad turns into a karmelis. So then if yad turns into a karmelis, then it turns into a karmelis. That which is a Rashba. So then you have to figure out a way how you're allowed to bring it back l'maalah mi'yud. I'm saying, but ma she'ein kein Tosafos. Tosafos learns that the whole karmelis is only l'gabei the issur of returning it. So you don't have to learn there's a karmelis over here. It's a difference. It never turned into a karmelis. What's the reason for it to turn into a karmelis? Rashi seems to say we have to say there's a karmelis, and we have to work out why it's mutar to be machzir l'maalah mi'yud if it's a karmelis. And the answer is because karmelis, makom patur, and makom patur to where? To inside. Right. Mutar. That's the whole. Rashi wants to compare it to real karmelis, you understand?

I understand, but the point is, it's l'gabei. And now this, the Rashba asks kashya on the makom patur. That's his next kashya. What do you do with the fact that a makom patur is patur, not mutar? So it's reshus, derabbanan, lav karmelis gamur. That's already where the Rashba comes into the picture. Okay. Lachein, Tosafos—Tosafos אומר that the whole karmelis has only been a gezeirah issur. The whole karmelis only been a gezeirah issur. Now, you listening? This is pashut pshat in Tosafos and the Rashba, the argument between Tosafos and the Rashba. Now, if you take a look, I'll show you further that from the Rishonim you have to say like this, and I'll show you why I'm saying this. What? I thought we could start now. Lefi tirutz haGemara, right? Eidי v'eidi—give him paper, give him paper. No more sheets. You don't give him my sheet. I don't need my sheet. Look on together now. Lefi tirutz haGemara, eidi v'eidi l'ma'atei miyud. Where do I see this yesod? I see this yesod in the following Gemara. Gemara says eidi v'eidi is l'ma'atei miyud, right? Eidi v'eidi is l'ma'atei under ten. Our girsa in the Gemara is, therefore what? Since it's l'ma'atei miyud, right, v'lav ki karmelis damya. And it's not karmelis. V'lav ki karmelis damya. It's not domeh to karmelis. Meaning that the Gemara never was mechadesh halacha of karmelis. Chazal were never metaken karmelis. There's no such thing. The Ritva has a different girsa. The yesh goresim... U'karmei ledamya. And the Ritva has a girsa, u'karmei ledamya. You have to change the Gemara. When it says, lav kikarmei ledamya, you have to change it to u'karmei ledamya. V'ha kol inyan echad. Ki karmei b'miktzas, i nami d'lav kikarmei legamrei. You hear how he's playing the Ritva? One of the two stadim. The two stadim is not yes or no. The two stadim is a little bit and maybe. Again, in other words, when the Gemara says karmei lav and not karmei lit, pashut you learn it's a normal Gemara, and the Gemara says yes or no. The yes is yes and the no is no. Says the Ritva, no. The yes and the no are both the same. Ki karmei is means b'miktzas, lav kikarmei legamrei. Both stadim is the same. Again, ki karmei b'miktzas, and the other side is lav kikarmei legamrei. But on both stadim it's a little bit. If the shaila is, is it only, is it a little bit, or it—no, there's no not at all, there's no sting. No. Or the pshat is, the lav kikarmei legamrei, that a little bit it is. Hakol inyanecha, he says the Rashba, he says the Ritva. Both stadim here are the same. That's right. The question is which side are we going on? It's a little bit, but it's not completely not. You want to know something? In business, this would be tremendous. Could you imagine a guy talking this in business? Hahen sheli lahem, valav sheli lahem, miktzat ken u'miktzat lo lo. Lo lo. You hear what it is? It's not completely. Again, when it says it's kikar melit, all it meant was kar melit, the miktzat. Tell me, you don't have to know this Ritva; some believe the Ritva. Unbelievable. You know, when you read the Gemara, you would never know this. You would never know this. The Gemara says, is kikar melit lav kikar melit? The Gemara doesn't mean that. No such Gemara. If you came and said, kikar lav kikar melit, you are atmorojene. No such thing. Yeah? Nazi. How does it go? A little bit crazy. How do you go Nazi? You had a Nazi? How do you say a little bit cuckoo, a little bit? You're going to come to... I taught it to you. The Ritva tells me that the two stadim of the Gemara, hakol inyan echad. Hakol inyan echad. When it says kikar melit, what does it mean? The miktzat. Inami d'lav kikar melit.

We got it. What's the difference, right? Mihu, l'kamlei lekahepes bein demedinai l'kikamlus ela mishum ksav. L'maaseh, it's only l'gabei knas. Meaning, what I think the Ritva is saying is like this. The Ritva is saying, according to one girsa, there was never a question of yes karmelis, no karmelis. A yad is what it is. Miktzat ken u'miktzat lo. Rashi, remember I told you Rashi, l'gabei lo. Remember I spoke to you in Rashi? What's the pshat it's kikarmelit? Yes, it's a miktzat karmelit. That's I explained to you, it's not a mamash karmelit. It's not karmelit. It's like a din. It's not karmelit. It's like a din. How do you work with it? A din. So that's the whole shaila over here. The shaila of the sugya is never lav karmelit damya. The shaila of the sugya was what halachos are we going to give it, and that's why the girsa is, karma l'mata miyud and karma l'mata miyud v'kikarmelit damya. Don't come and be poshut it's not; it is a karmelit. Yad always is what it is. What is the Ritva trying to say? Hem l'chiyuv and hem l'ptur, the karmelit exists. What it is is what it is. The Gemara never came and just made up that it's a karmelit. The Gemara said it is a karmelit, but since it's only b'miktzat, the question is how are we to deal with this miktzat karmelit, okay? So I believe that this is the makor for it. It has components. Yesh b'zeh chalakim shel karmelit. He says, lo shuta rabim, lo shuta yachid. It's a reshus bifnei atzmo. Exactly where I'm going. We're not holding it yet. Chochomim l'kula has to do this sugya. It has to do this sugya. That's right. In reshuyos, hakol kamus, and that's the whole yesod of kamus. Lo zeh v'lo zeh. The Rashi: lo zeh v'lo zeh. Nagid kacha: ma zeh reshus hayachid? Reshus hayachid. Ma zeh reshus harabim? Reshus harabim. Ma zeh karmelis? Lo zeh v'lo zeh. Lo pirush lo zeh v'lo zeh ela... lo zeh v'lo zeh, mikzat v'lo zeh v'lo zeh l'gamrei. Sound familiar? Exactly what I told you in Rashi. Exactly how I learned Rashi. Good. Because it's not. It's not a question of stuff. It's not a stuff to define. The metzius. It's a question of what the metzius is. I mean, it has mikzat zeh and mikzat zeh. Nagid lecha kacha, nagid lecha kacha. Dugma, okay? Mi sheyesh lo... safek muzarchar over the keiva, ma omrim bo? No. Tumtum. Tumtum. Lo yedi ma zeh. Good. Lo yedi ma zeh. Im yesh mikzat zeh v'mikzat zeh, zeh lo tumtum, lo safek ma zeh, ela shneihem. Androgynous. Yesh lo din shel shnayim. The bria bifnei atzma. That's this yad. Yad is a very strange thing. It's like a karmelis. Ma zeh mikzat u'mikzat. Now, this is the Ritva, and this is how I explained to you the machlokes, the Rashba and the Tosfos. Now we will see the next line. So again, question number one: Lefi teirutz haGemara, either... and the answer is... Ayin litvera, that some people are goyres inami, it can be goyres. Ki karmelit, and the pshat is because it doesn't make a difference. It's always karmelit. Whether chiyuv, whether patur, whether you're allowed, whether you're not allowed, this is the Ritva. The metzius is there. I'm telling you, ayin Ritva. Now, mahu biur? Yad is karmelit. Not the case. Miktzas, that exists. That will always exist. We never held that a pshat is karmelit. The question is what halachos are we going to give this karmelit. That's the Ran is saying. That's the Ran is the same as the Ritva, the same thing. Now, even on the bottom he quotes you the Ran. Okay, now, mahu—the Ran is the same as the Ritva. He brings it down on the bottom, it's the Ran, okay, if you want to look, it's the shitah mekubetzes laRan. Now, mahu biur shtei gefasim, v'gasi karmelit, v'loi, v'al hashom sh... and that's how he just explained to you. Do we learn that it's always a karmelit?

And the shayla is, is it mamish karmelit, or it's only for the takanah karmelit, to make the heter a reshus to the whole business, right? No, you can't. There's no heter. It's only when they assered it, you have a karmelit. The whole karmelit is only to asser it, that's all. You can't be matir l'hachsir and it's a karmelit. There's no such thing. Because according to them, there's no real karmelit here. It's a takanah in order to asser, because they don't hold of that. They don't hold that makes a karmelit. That's not a karmelit. No. Kivan sheyesh shneihem, as chachamim omru sheyesh karmelit. L'achshav, hayad hu otzozeh. Right, oh, yad is all karmelit or no karmelit. I'm not thinking, what's a mikzat, mikzat, because of that, yeah? ... I tell him, ... understand. ... yad lo ... Yad is a mikzat karmelit. ... What? The second what? Second question? Well, the ... No, the Rashba learns that there's always, no. Second girsa, second girsa is always. No, no, the second girsa is the Rashba. The inami of the Ritva is the Rashba, that the thing is always there, no? No, the thing is there. The question is, what's the ... halachah? First case is Tosafos. We don't know this who says a karmelit here, because according to the Rashba, no matter what, even if you're not chayav, there's always a karmelit. L'maalah miyud, where you're not chayav to bring it back, we still have to work with din karmelis. Thanks for the point. You see, the way he learns is even if you're patur, you see that even when you're patur it's called a karmelis. It must be when it says l'maatah miyud, it didn't change from the fact that it still be a karmelis. L'maalah miyud, l'maatah miyud, it's still karmelis. They're both still called a karmelis. I mean, obviously there was a regular din karmelis here. That's what the Ritva is saying. There was always karmelis here. The only thing is, regardless of karmelis, you're still חייב or פטור. Okay, now, the Radvaz and the Rishonim say the same thing. Now, Harishonim sho'alim, d'l'maalah miyud peshita, ma nafka mina bein echser tois macha she'eilah u'vein echser rivva macha she'eilah? If you notice, they seem, when you read it quickly, they seem to ask the same question: peshita l'maalah miyud. But they're two different cases. I don't know if you realize. If you look carefully, you'll notice they're two different things. What's Tosafos's peshita? What's the case of peshita in Tosafos? The l'maalah miyud. No, yeah, I understand l'maalah miyud, but what? Read, nu. Mutar lehai... How does the Ritva say to ask the question? Mutar... I don't understand why nobody speaks about it. Plus the seifa. When you start reading it, it sounds like the same question. Tosafos asks the question. All I'm pointing out is that Tosafos asks the question why mutar lehai peshita, and the Ritva says mutar lav peshita. First hear the question before everybody becomes your baran kafta. Everybody decides they're a baran kafta. You hear a question from a rebbi and everybody's in the yeshiva gives terutz. First hear the question. What's the question? Tosfos seems to ask the kasha: l'maalah miyud, mutar l'hotziah; there is, l'maalah miyud, mutar l'hachzirah. Maybe. Ah, haflah. What's that? You don't know the difference in metzius? No, I know what the difference is. Right, obviously you do know. You want to know why there should be a difference. That's the question.

One question. Ah, you want to know here. One person wants to know, one person wants to know why you're allowed to put your hat on, and the other one wants to know why you put your hat off. You don't know the difference between the two questions? You don't see the difference between the two questions. Why is one bothered by the mutar loitziah, one's bothered by the mutar lachziro? Question, no? Same question, but one is matgis nekudah zu, and one's matgis nekudah zu. What's the answer? Give up, give up. You agree with him that what? Yeah. What, what, what were you running with? Yeah. Question. ... Pshita. ... Bein ech shetosis machshasheilah, u'vein ech sheyitba. The answer is, Tosafos asks about hotza'ah, and Ritva asks about lachziro. Okay. What's the nafka mina? I'll play what I think the nafka mina is, like this. If you learn—huh? No, no, no, no, no, no. If you learn that the takanah of karmelis was only kedei le'esor et ha... et hachnasah, right? So then the whole she'eilah of karmelis is only begeder the chazarah. If you learn that the whole karmelis was created in the first place only to aser the chazarah, right? That's the whole karmelis. It's not a real karmelis anyway. So then the she'eilah is mahu lachziro. So then that becomes the whole she'eilah. It's our question, l'tziymuta, you took it out. The problem is you took it out. Now what? Is it a karmelit, but again, l'hachzir? That's the question. But if you learn it was always a karmelit, so then l'hotzi becomes the same problem, then l'hachzir, right? If you learn that it's a real karmelit, then whatever l'hachzir is in l'hotzi becomes the same problem, right? I'm telling you, Tosafos's kasha of l'hotziya, I would have said, I would have said that Tosafos is learning that b'etzem is a problem of karmelit. The thing is, it doesn't fit into what we're saying. That's what I'm trying to bring out. If we would have learned, if I would learn, that the takanah is only a takanah b'neged, so l'hachzir rotzim le'esor את זה, echosrim את זה. Notim לזה דין karmelit, so ma she'ein lachzir, that's the whole question. And that's b'emes the lashon of the Gemara. If you notice, what was the lashon of the Gemara? The lashon of the Gemara is like this: Vayabaye. What was Abaye's question? Mi kansu Rabbanan l'hadurei l'gabei olei? We never discussed what? L'hotzi. We always discussed the l'hadurei. Pshat? I'm saying, but this is l'choira. All I'm saying is like this, that I understood that the sugya is haGemara, from the Gemara. The Gemara is mashma: l'hadurei olei, l'hadurei. How can we never discuss l'hotzi in the first place? Why don't we discuss, ha'im mutar lohotzi? That's a separate question, right? Why can't we ask a question, ha'im mutar lihotzi? So pashut you could learn, l'hotzi is much worse. Why? Because once you hotzi, then you might always put it down, and so it becomes like a chatzi melachah. And the shaila of the Gemara is maybe better to let him bring it back in already. So the shaila of the Gemara could have been only l'hadurei, because it's much better than l'hotzi. Meaning, if l'hadurei will be aser, peshita, l'hotzi will be aser. That's why I learn pashut pshat in the Gemara. Right? What does the Gemara ask? The Gemara is asking if I'm allowed to put my hand out or if I'm allowed to bring my hand back in. No. L'hachzir, right? Why? Later on in the Gemara, we understand why the Gemara speaks about l'hachzir, because whether he took it out, he took it out erev Shabbos. Then I understand why by Abaye. But in the Gemara before Erev Shabbos, why would the Gemara speak about l'hachzir? The teretz is because l'hachzir is much worse, much better than l'hotzi, right? L'hotzi, you might still finish off the whole melacha. Those l'hachzir is aser kol sheken l'hotzi, right? Because why is l'hachzir aser? Because you might, right? So the motzi zeh can't be mutar. That would be pashut pshat in the Gemara. That's the simple pshat.

Or maybe, I would say no. Maybe the whole suffix of the Gemara was only was Avrom tells Roshiva only by... That was the whole shaila about Lehaitzi. It was never a shaila about lehotzi. Why? Because it's not a real karmelis anyway. There's nothing here anyway. What's the question? What? The yad is never really a karmelis anyway, right? So it has to become a karmelis. That's the question. So the whole thing is, you can't—when the moment it turns out, it already happened. If the pshat is it's a real karmelis, so then you can come and question lehotzi just like lehachnis. But if it has to become a karmelis, so the whole question is only afterwards, after it became a karmelis, mau la'avid? That's what I think the pshat is. Very good, huh? Because you're awake, telling... Avrom tells Roshiva, I don't say good; it's not good, it means beautiful, no? Pashut, you know what it is? It's simple pshat in the Gemara. Because the Ritva learned that the whole karmelis that in the first place is mau la'durei. The whole karmelis, the Gemara's question was mau la'durei. Limaskana, the Gemara, I understand the mau la'durei. You know why? Because it's talking about Erev Shabbos. The hotzi was anyway b'heter. But in the hava amina of the Gemara, what was the mau la'durei? Understood the Ritva, because that's the whole takanah. The takanah is only to bring it back in issur, but lehotzi was never a problem. Or it's either always asur, or it's never a problem. So I'm explaining to you why was it never a problem, because it turns into a karmelis. Since it turns into a karmelis, the lehotzi— That's only after lehotzi. That's pshat Ritva, because according to Ritva it becomes... But seikei, according to Tosfos it is. So if it is, then the problem of l'hotzi is the same problem of b'hafch. Right, which is a question, which is a question. That's the question I'm saying. Yes. The Ritva is shoresh, l'kushya now. So the Ritva gives different terutzim than Tosfos. Tosfos gives the teretz, what, top and bottom, right? He took it out on the bottom and he put it up to the top. The Ritva gives different terutzim. Now who took away my Ritva? Here, here, here. The heichu kamaskinan, she'ein avir reshus harabim ela ad asarah. To teach me that the avir reshus harabim is only till ten, meaning that's where he got it from. The pshat—well, what are you saying, that once it's higher than ten it's a makom patur? Hagufa is what the braisa is trying to teach me. So now, in the end, the Ritva wants—what is he saying exactly? That is the makor for the halachah. Yeah, is that true? I mean, that's what we know, avir—I mean, there's no Mishnayos about avir reshus harabim. His answer is that, what are you saying, how do you know it's higher than ten, right? Says the Ritva, says the Tosfos, peshita, it's mutar if it's higher than ten, it's a makom patur. This is where we know it from, that this, that you're allowed to take out l'maalah me'—you see that it's higher than— that's what he says. But I'm saying this is where the braisa is teaching it to us. Huh? The Ritva says like this: Yesh lomar, d'hi gufa ka mashma lan, she'ein avir reshus harabim ela ad asarah. That's where we learn it from. This is what the Mish—this is what it's teaching us. What's your question? Peshita, of course it's mutar. Yeah, that's where we know it from. I mean, I know you don't say it's the makor, but this is what it's trying to teach me. Try to understand. This is the mekar for aver shesurah. This is Mishnayos about it. Yeah, the Mishnah. ... This braisa would tell you. I think he's saying something else. I think what the Ritva is saying is like this. When we say that the yad is a karmelis, right, but l'maalah meyud it can't turn into a karmelis, right? What's the reason why l'maalah meyud it can't turn into a karmelis? Oh, I think this is what he's trying to say. It's trying to teach me that l'maalah meyud is a makom patur, meaning it takes on a reshus bifnei atzmoi, that you can't make a karmelis out of it. That's what he means to say. Since it's a makom patur, that's Mishnayos. That's a Mishnah. I don't need here a braisa.

What he means to teach me, what he means to say is, it's like you can't turn into a karmelis. That's what it means. Not that it's obvious. It's a makom patur to the extent that in our sugya, that we want to make it a karmelis, it's not going to turn into a karmelis. That's what he means. Is it to turn into a ... and go into a ... lose the status of ...? Exactly. If it is below ... he brings it up and loses the status. So that's a question between the Tais and the Rashba. So would that be a solution of not staying in a ...? Right. So that's the question we have to still deal with. We're not clear in Taisus yet. One thing we're clear about is that Taisus learns that for some reason it's not a karmelis when you pick it up, and the Rashba learns it will still remain a karmelis, but it's a karmelis to a makom patur. Now, what I'm trying to say is what the Ritva means to say over here is not teaching me that an avir l'maalah mi'yud is a makom patur. That's a Mishnah. That's Gemaras later. That I don't need. What he's trying to say is it's a makom patur legabei this halachah of karmelis, that it can't turn into a karmelis. It can't become a karmelis. And that's that. So my question to you is, why is Tais not want to learn like this? It's a very nice teretz. Why is Tais not this? Why does he disagree with the Ritva? Maybe what? It's not a real karmelis. Once you learn it's not a real karmelis, you can do it in a makom patur also. How do I explain to you the Rashba? Remember the Rashba learns that it can't become a karmelis inside the house. Why? Because l'maalah mi'yud, even inside the house, what happens? It's a reshus hayachid, right? So b'metzius it can't turn in. But if you learn that the knas... I explained to you that it could turn into a ... because it's not anyway. That's the shakla v'tarya. Tosafos, like I'm explaining to you, is learning now that the pshat is that it's not a real karmelis, on the side that it's not a real karmelis, Tosafos is saying, Ah, so why don't you talk about this? Then I don't see what could be the chiddush of Avraham, what's in again. It's not a real karmelis anyway. According—if you learn in the Ritva, if you learn that it's a karmelis itself, to teach me this yesod, that a karmelis cannot turn into this makom patur. It's not anyway, so then what is he teaching me? There's no chiddush. It's mutar. There's no karmelis. What's the she'eilah? And that's the shakla v'tarya. Yeah, you got it? This is not the case of the braisa, right? So I'm telling you, so what are you—so the Ritva can't come and start waking up, tell me this is where we learn it from, right? Ah, karmelis. That's what I'm telling you. I'm showing you pashut shot in the Ritva. You can't come and say that the Ritva meant that from here we learn it out, because it's not even true. L'maaseh, the Gemara is talking about l'maatah me'asar also. L'maaseh, both cases are l'maatah me'asar. So then the question is, what is the Ritva mean? The Ritva means to tell me a chiddush that it's avir reshus harabim, it's makom patur, and l'gabei my hand becoming a karmelis. Okay, so I'm asking you, what's the difference? Why does Tosafos not want to learn like this? Why does Tosafos not give this teretz? And the answer is very simple, because Tosafos obviously learned that it could become a karmelis and a makom patur. That's not the problem. Okay, not like the Rashba. The Rashba learned, right, like the Rashba's yesod... Exactly, exactly. Since it could go both ways, and mainly you don't have a raya anymore that the fact that it comes inside. Who's—yeah. What are you proving? What do you want? What are you proving? It shayach to be that it's l'maalah miyud and still turns into a karmelis. That's tosfos, huh? You don't see it? Mainly it's not a chiddush. It's not a chiddush. Okay, so this is—right. So what do you get if you take a look at the bottom of the Ritva? He asks an interesting she'eilah: Lo nizba'er b'dvarav, you hear, b'divrei Rabbeinu, אי שויל לחתחילה נמי. When we say l'maalah miyud, is it become mutar l'chatchilah or not? What's the lashon? The lashon is, l'chatchilah nami mutar, ma l'hadurei. What's the nafka mina? Very good. You see? If you learn—

That the makka patur causes that the karmelis can be a karmelis, then it becomes mutar even l'chatchila. There's nothing. There's no problem over here. If you learn that the karmelis loses its status when it's l'maalah me'asarah, then it becomes mutar l'chatchila. I'm telling you, but obviously, and I'm going to show you this at the end of the shiur. That's right. And for some reason, the Ritva doesn't speak about the Gemaras. Notice that the Rashba asks on Tosfos all the Gemaras. The Ritva never asks these Gemaras. The Ritva never asks these Gemaras. The Ritva never asked these Gemaras. If you take a look clearly, the Rashba brings Tosfos, and then he starts saying, What do you do with the Gemaras from makka patur? The Ritva obviously never was worried about these Gemaras. And you know what the answer is? Very poshut. If you learn that the karmelis is finished, the karmelis is over, right? There's no karmelis over here, then what happened was, to be motzi it, what you're doing is you're being motzi to a makka patur, without even the hanacha in a makka patur. That's what I want to show you. You didn't do anything. Your mamish didn't do anything, because you didn't take it into a makom patur, not even through a makom patur, not even to a makom patur, and not even to a karmelis in a makom patur. But you just took it out. You didn't bring it—whatever, like this. You never. So it comes out that as long as it's not a karmelis, there's no problem here. Huh? It doesn't matter. I'm saying to you, but if you hold, if you hold that through a makom patur becomes aser, right? Through a makom patur becomes aser, so l'maaseh you can't bring it into the makom patur, right? Because you're now going to go through this makom patur. So what's the halacha? The halacha is, since l'maaseh it's not a karmelis, that's not true. That's the case of the Rashba's kasha. What was the Rashba's kasha? Derech makom patur is always aser. That's the Rashba's kasha. And I'm showing you, if you look clearly, the Ritva never speaks about all this. The Ritva's not bothered by this, and the Teretz is very pashut, because he let you never put it down anyway. The Ritva learns like the Eliyah Rabbah. I tell you, you never pass through it and put it down. You stuck it in, stuck it back, and that's what the Yoreh Abba says yesterday. It's never a she'eilah, right? Where does the she'eilah become? Only if it turns into a kamlus. That's the only time it becomes a she'eilah. Has the Ritva never turned into a kamlus because it's l'maalah mi'yud. Right? No, I'm telling you not like that. I'm telling you that's the Ritva's teretz, that l'maalah mi'yud it can't be a kamlus. I'm trying to tell you, machein kein Tosafos. Tosafos never—let's say Tosafos never learned it's a real kamlus, right? If you learn in Tosafos— No, so anyway you could have put it in a makom patur. No, so you could have been a kamlus even in a makom patur. Tosafos, according to Tosafos, it still could be, and you're getting confused about it here. Let's start over. You ready? Sit down. Ready to sit. I started off like that. I'm trying to tell you that, lichora, in the second girsa—again, I'm not saying the Ritva; the Ritva is two girsaos. I'm not telling you what the Ritva himself held. The Ritva brings two girsaos, and the difference between the two girsaos is: is it always a kamlus or it's not always a kamlus? Then I say to you like this: let's see how Tosafos and Ritva argue about the question. Ritva learns the question is to bring it back, while Tosafos learns the question is to take it out. I said the only way we can explain the difference between the Ritva and the—there's only one way to do it. According to the Ritva, the whole problem is to bring it back, and according to Rashba, according to Tosafos, the problem is to take it out. So I ask you, what's the difference? If you learn it's a real kamlus anyway, then I understand. Don't—like, leave the girsaos alone. The girsa is two sheets, okay? If you learn like this, that's shat in Tosafos, and then that it's always a kamlus, so it's also like tzel. The same problem is like tzel hachas. But if you learn that it's only takanah anyway, so...

The Shailah is, you're allowed to bring it back. That's pashut pshat in the sugya. Are you allowed to bring it back? That's the whole question. Yeah, we don't care about the ... because you never meniach anywhere. ... there's nothing always. A different chatzer. You have to have it to a different chatzer. There has to have some ma'aseh over here, melachah. And the question is derech. Are you with me here or you're lost? So far, so good, right? Okay. Now, comes along the Ritva and he gives a teretz, that we're learning from here that avir reshus harabim is such a real strong makom patur that you can't even make a karmelis out of it. That's what the Ritva means, the way we explained the Ritva. That's what the Ritva is trying to say, that this is what the ... that's the chiddush, that you can't become a karmelis. Exactly. That's where I'm getting to. That the metzius is—I'm explaining to you what the chiddush, you'll soon see what the chiddush. According to this teretz, that b'metzius it can't be a karmelis, Tosafos's teretz doesn't make any sense. Tosafos's teretz and the Ritva's first teretz—you know what they're arguing? This point. The Ritva's first teretz is here—move away, I want to have Telsh Rosh Yeshiva to listen. Telsh Rosh Yeshiva, you listening? According to the first teretz of the Ritva, what happens? This is where we learn out that it can't turn into a karmelis, right? You know what they're arguing? Very simple. Because it can't be a karmelis once it's a makom patur. You know what the first teretz is saying different than the second teretz? It doesn't work that you're allowed to bring it up l'maalah meyud. You know why? Because— Mah nafshach, it's not pshat they went from a karmelis to a makom patur. The karmelis went up and disappeared. Right, that's what I was supposed to be over there. Oh, so that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's what I'm trying to tell you. When Tosafos gives a teretz that it's mutar— No. No. Who says it works that way? If you learn, if you learn that you have a heter because the karmelis is taking it into the makom patur, then the pshat is you have a heter with the karmelis, right? That's— okay, now I see everybody's confused. The teretz is that the karmelis in a makom patur can never be. It can't exist. That's the teretz of the Ritva, right? This Tosafos disagrees with. This Tosafos tells us that the karmelis could be, because it's not a real karmelis anyway. Whatever it is, whatever this karmelis is, and it could be in the same way it could be in the— where? In the reshus harabim l'maalah me'yud, it could be in the reshus hayachid. Like we said from the Rishonim, some Rishonim learn that the sugya's haGemara is that the karmelis becomes yad karmelis in and out. Meaning it's not only for the baal habayis sticking his hand out, but for the ani sticking his hand in. Says the Rashba, no, no, no, no, no. A karmelis can't be in the reshus hayachid, because it's a real karmelis, right? Yes, yes. And that's why showing the Rashba, he holds a real karmelis. Okay. Tosafos is learning it's not a real karmelis. So what kind of teretz— what's this teretz? What are you talking about? L'maalah me'yud? Technically you can have it l'maalah me'yud also. Yeah. Okay. While the Ritva is giving a teretz, no, no, no, no, no. It can't be l'maalah me'yud. She's saying, very good. You know why? Because l'maaseh, it's no different than the Rashba's case inside. You can't have it l'maalah me'yud. This is the machlokes Tosafos and the Riva. Now, the—