Hilchos Shabbos: Borer L’alter, Changing One’s Mind, and Preparing Food for a Meal

Transcript

All right, yesterday we ended off with the Leil Haseder. That was the last. So yesterday we ended off with Leil Haseder. When is the boirer of l'alter of Leil Haseder? Good. Because, it's a Mishnah Berurah, it says that the boirer of l'alter is not before Kiddush or after Kiddush because the whole Haggadah is mafsik. Yeah, yeah. Before Ashkenaz, it would hold for sure is mafsik. Yeah, yeah. You see, altz the bracha, it's a hefsek, right? Right, right, right. Okay, okay. So he wants to say that it's a hefsek, okay? So let's continue from the next nekudah, and I want to go through the chartzin that we touched on yesterday a little bit. A person was mevarer l'alter, oichel, so that's good, right? But then something came up, and it was nisacher. Something came up, some circumstance, unforeseen circumstance. So what happens then? Do we say, well, you were boirer fine; b'shaas the berirah was l'alter. This that it was nisacher, it is what it is. Anybody have a piece of paper? No, no. That's kedai. Anybody have a piece of paper for this? Why not? It's kedai. I'm telling you, the mareh mekomos here. This is, you know, years of looking at all the little pamphlets and all the little kuntresim that come out. I don't even think they have them today anymore, these kuntresim, you know. I collected, you know. I used to collect all the stuff that people threw out, you know, I used to collect it. Chaim Kanievsky, beautiful stuff. Okay. So the shailah is, what do you do? So the shayla is, well, two nekudos could be. Maybe the pshat is a person should not be nisacher kacha. It could be, l'maaseh, should a person say, Ah, you know what? Nu, nu, like I said, I always say this in this shiur, nu, nu, nu, nu, just like the hamotzi, nu, nu, nu, hamotzi, half-sick? Nu, nu, nu, half-sick, borei. Write down. There’s more importance because this could affect the halacha. Avada, avada, that’s a shayla, brachos, chiluk, yeah, this is more strict. Okay? So this is a new thing we’re going to invent in our shiur: nu, nu, nu, boirei, boirei, nu, nu, nu. That’s the shayla. Okay, what’s the yesod? The Chamdanim, daf in the Chiddushei haBisul, what’s the yesod of that shayla? Do we go after his daas, and his daas was l’alter, or do we go after l’maaseh? L’maaseh, it was l’alter. So even if in the daas it was for l’alter, could be it could turn into a problem later. And Nishtin Karelitz in the sefer says there’s no problem, since b’daasai, he, in the Chutzhani, brings down, since b’daasai he didn’t want to do boirei, so if it was nimlach afterwards, meaning it was nisacher, if something came up, well, it came up. He doesn’t say a raya; he just says that’s the way it is. So I don’t know. Maybe someone could come and argue with that. Unless you say he’s such a big gadol that you can’t argue with him. I don’t know, but I’ll tell you why you have to really know good. First of all, it’s talui in the shayla, right? Talui if it’s b’daas, so then you’re right. But if it’s talui in the l’maaseh, then it’s not right. I’m going to get to it in two seconds. Before I get to that chartzin, I want to show you the flip side of that shayla. What happens l’hepech? He was bir l’achar zman, which is no good. He was bir oichel for the afternoon, oichel. No good, because lacharzman. And then he says, Oy vey, Shabbos. And he says, You know, I'll eat it now. Would that fix it? Right? L'choira, it's תלוי in the same she'eilah. Do we go after daas? So when b'shas the borer, the daas was lacharzman, it's no good. Yeah? Why not? Shabbos, right? תלוי in the machshavah. Wouldn't help, you see. And he's saying not. You see two talmidei chachamim toasting right across from each other. He's saying machshavos. Can I tell you the real truth? But the melachah has to be done. If it's ois melachah, it becomes derech achilah, it's not a melachah. Machshavah is all you want, but you have to do melachah. L'maaseh, if you ate, you ate it. What are you going to say? You do what you want by leitza. What's the difference? The machshavah makes what the borer is. It's תלוי if you were borer or not. Could be it's both, right? Could be it's both. Okay. This you'll do first seder when you have time. My job is to be me'oir and to move along quickly. Now, oy bazoi comes out a nice nafka mina lahalachah. A person should taka be makpid le'echol miyad, like I told you. If the pshat is that what you did, the machshavah is not so much the machria, that even after the machshavah, mashu you were borer l'alter.

It's still talui in l'maaseh what you do. So when a person is taka boirer, even for laalter. That's the third case. He was boirer for laalter. Should he go make sure it's taka laalter? Who said why? Shlep. Lazol shleppen. You go in people's homes, you go in people's homes, it schleps, it schleps. You think from the time the wife prepares the food till they start eating, Come to my house, you'll see what it does. Yeah, shmoozing, meda... So the husband, that's different a little bit. That's a heter even without. No, that's if you go into — that's if you l'chatchila want the hefsek. I'm talking about l'chatchila you didn't want the hefsek. You boirer laalter. Should you then be makpid? I'm telling you, it's pashut a case. No, no, no, let's start the meal, boirer. Can you imagine in someone's house you hear that? No, no, boirer, boirer, boirer. Wait a minute, I learned the Shulchan Aruch, it has to be laalter. You know, people don't chap. It's better than no, no, no, I have to make hamotzi. I'm telling you, it's better. Okay. Could you just drop it and take off the problem? Ah, so that's what we spoke two days ago. Do you need all of it? And that's what we're going to get into. Maybe I can have some of it right away, and the rest of it I can eat later. We're going to discuss all these nekudos, okay? That's that shaar hatzinah business. All right, we'll soon see. Now, Mishnah Berurah brings down your case. That's why I'm telling you, we're leading right into it. Mishnah Berurah brings down, se'if katan hei, yeah, says the Mishnah Berurah, afilu... v'im kavanaso k'dei sheyishtayer gam hachesudah... Oy, asu dacheres, chayiv chatos. So if a person has kavanah, right, then it should remain. Now, he doesn't explain, does he mean all of it, some of it? I don't know. Why pashtus? Gam. Gam. You made a lot. You made a lot, right? So, but the kavanah was— Wait a second, wait a second. The kavanah was for l'achar zman, right? That's l'choira. What's the second case? Ach im meileh nishtayer mi'bereros ad l'achar ha'sudah. But if it's meileh, which means my intention was to eat it, and, grad, I couldn't eat so much and stuff was left over, then it's okay. Now, I asked you yesterday, what about a middle case? Because the two cases of the Mishnah Berurah is not—one is that he has kavanah that it should, and one is that he had kavanah that it shouldn't, right? Those are the two cases of the Mishnah Berurah. What about if his kavanah was that it shouldn't, but dafka stay for after the meal, but it could? Is that—what would you stick it into? You would stick it into that's kavanasoi, that's considered kavanasoi sheyishtayer, or would you stick it into that's meileh nishtayer? Why did he put these eggs? Why did those— The guy makes a—he makes a gantzah seudah together, yeah? A whole seudah. So, okay, so let's—what's his kavanah? No, but that's the shaylah, we don't know. What is kavanah? What is kavanah? He did it because there's a possibility that somebody might eat it now. Oh, so I'm going to get to that the next case. I'm not sure yet. Beautiful. These are all the sevaras we're going to speak about. That's what I'm trying to say. In this Mishnah Berurah, we have to go one step further and clarify. The kavanasi means l'chaira b'davka, and memeila nishtayer means his kavanah was that it shouldn't. No, stam. Oh, I don't know. You see, I don't know. So you know what? I'm gonna ask Reb Leib. Reb Leib's the chacham. Ken the good lamdan. What would you say the pshat in the Mishnah Berurah is? But you hear my shaila. You hear? This is called learning up a Mishnah Berurah. And you know what the scary part is? One of them is chayav chatos. You better know your halacha, because it's not stam a vertel or a chumra. It's a shailah of chiyuv chatos. That's how serious this is. So which one is it? Kavanasi lishtayer means b'davka, and memeila nishtayer means b'davka not? Or memeila nishtayer means mistama? Or even a better case. Hey, hey, hey, invov. Go ahead, hey, invov. See if— hey and see if— that's what we're doing. Hey. I got the shaila, I got the shaila. Let's see how you wrote it down. I don't think it's pashut. How could anything be pashut? He had no kavanah, and memeila nishtayer. How can? When you make him— he thought that we need dafka this, and by mistake— a mistake. He made a mistake. But the shailah is, let's say he doesn't know how much he needs for this. Exactly.

How do you know? Maybe not. Maybe. How do you know? The two start Gemara like this. And, rabosai, I want to repeat, because this is a shaylah b'chiyuv chatos, so this is not a joke, okay? This is not a real shaylah. Are you chayav—let's say the shaylah like this: are you chayav chatos when? Okay, let's fill in the blank. When I bedavka left over for the next meal, doing it bedavka, left over. So you would translate the word nishtayer, bedavka. What about the case of lo nishtayer, means b'meila, b'meila nishtayer? How would you translate that? Not bedavka, meaning—meaning what? That it... what was going through my mind? I didn't want to have leftovers? I didn't really think about it. I didn't think about it. How do you know? So that's a shaylah. Maybe means bedavka. I thought that I would hold it for this, and it ended up I didn't. That's what I'm saying, it's keilu. I don't know. I might not need all this. Maybe I can't. That's the question. It's keilu. I don't know. How do you know? Huh? Why lishma? Only I'm allowed to do what I feel I need. What do you mean? Why don't you know? You know more... Everybody has leftovers. Everybody. Nobody has less. No, the ba'er could be l'chatchilah that you shouldn't do that. The ba'er could be when you're not doing an expert melachah. If you're not specifically doing it for ba'er, it's memeila not a melachah. It's memeila, derech achilah. It's without a kivun. No, I just—the two cases are: one is bedavka. The other one has been meila. Now I want to know what's... You know what? Maybe that's what it means, meila. If the pshat is that my intentions were just for the seudah, and if a grada was left over... So we're going to get to that. That's fine. I agree with you that you have the right to pasken that way, but let's first get... We're going to get to it. I see already the oilam is going to make me work tonight. Any other orders? Anybody have any...? Okay. Okay, so, yeah. We're going to make a lot extra, even though you know it's going to be... We're going to get to that. We're going to discuss all those cases. We're going to discuss. First, let's get one more time clear. I want to be clear in the shayla. When it's bedavka... Thank you so much for... When it's bedavka for the next meal, no good, right? So I guess, like I said yesterday, michlal, from that is when it's stam, then it is good, right? If you want to learn like a Mishnah, then you can learn, right, from the reisha to the seifa. In the seifa, when it's nishtayer, right? So it could be the pshat is nishtayer when my kavanah was not, and it was nishtayer. Or it could be my kavanah is even stam and grada was nishtayer. Or I even have a better case. What happens when I don't even know? I have a tzad that it might be. But I could be oneed for this meal. It could be needed, which is even less of a case. It's even less. You're talking about even now less of a case, where I have a good tzad that it might be for the next meal. But I didn't do it for this. Maybe this אוכל I do it for this meal because I might need it. That's another shaylah I have. Okay. Therefore, it would come out lahalacha, if he's meisif just in case he needs, according to this tzad it would be mutar. That's nichlal b'meila. Or maybe it's not in the... it's nichlal in the bedavka. Right. It's not—I'm saying that's the shaylah. Is that called kavanah lishtayer? Because l'maaseh his kavanah might be for now, and even though he knows it might be for later, who cares? Right? Or the pshat is no, it has to be the kavanah is now. But if you're in the mind thinking it might be for later, dasa she'eino niker nisgad. Okay. So there's a very interesting psak from Rav Shlomo Zalman and others. Let's say he does it knowing that it is going to be leftovers, but he wants the table to look full with food. What's he going to sit there—okay, I have to tell you, you know me, I have to tell you everything, okay? Svardim are very much in tachanun.

Ashkenazim, you know, it's very, you know, b'tzimtzum. I came to France, you know, the Shabbos meals, it's like seudah shlishit b'shayta. It's seudah shlishit b'shayta. The courses and the food, and they're throwing food at you. My wife's family, when they came here the first two, three times, after Shabbos they would go to eat because they say, I'm stuffed. There's too much food on the table. I used to go after Shabbos to look for the food. They couldn't understand, where's the food? How come they don't eat? How come they don't... So sometimes pshat in a Shabbos table means tons of food, and you know that it's going to be left over. There's no safek about the leftover, but that's called needing it for that meal. So there's a psak from the Gedolim, and Rav Nissim Karelitz, that's it, so Rav Nissim Karelitz says that's mutar. Rav Chaim Kanievsky says it's asur. Rav Chaim Kanievsky says only what you need for the meal, period, end of story. So it's interesting. Now, I don't know if Rav Chaim means that only what you know for sure you need for the meal, lafuke what's safek for the meal, or he's matir what's safek for the meal. But if you know in advance it's not going to be needed at all, then vadai it's asur, and Rav Nissim Karelitz is matir that. So it comes out an interesting machlokes. L'chumra. L'chumra. I mean, this is, I know it b'shem Rav Shlomo Zalman. I heard many people say it over. I saw from Rav Nissim Karelitz. I could be. Huh? The who? The Halichos Shlomo brings it down. I saw it. Yeah. So this is it. Kavod. Good. Good, good. So I got it. The fact that you have a tzorech for it now. Yeah. Oh, that could be even better, because l'maaseh the tzorech that the table now should look better, it's different than safek. It's even better than safek. Azoi gut, azoi gut, this svara. It could be even better than safek. V'al kol panim, this is the nidon, okay, rabosai? What you have to learn, this is not considered tzorech at all because it's not for the food. It's just for the kavod. Okay, but for the kavod, Reb Shlomo Zalman holds it's grade mutar. Oh, Reb Shlomo Zalman holds this, that if the table, if you want to set the table because people need a nice Shabbos table, so you're allowed to set the table. You're allowed to set the table, right? Because it's less, because since it's keilim, it could be different than ochel. Even kavod, you get not going to touch the food, have food, it's for kavod. Yeah, but so what? Then it becomes a tzorech, though. The tzorech is now to have this. No, there's a heter by sefarim also. These halachos we're going to learn are by sefarim also. If you need the sefarim, so that becomes l'tzorech. We learned this, that l'altar shayach even by שתי מינים, and we're going to learn it's even by sefarim also. No, l'altar could be a heter. L'altar is a heter even by minim, even by chfetzim. To take those and put it away? It depends. If you feel that it's messing up your Shabbos table, that's what the Acharonim say, you know. But not פסולת. You're allowed to take ochel mitoch pesoles. Not pesoles. Ochel mitoch pesoles would be mutar, because the l'altar is to have a clean house. Okay, we're going to say l'altar, and we're going to get back to this, because we're just throwing out things now. Okay, so you hear the nafka mina, that Reb Nissim Karelitz is paskening, habeisai, that if I want to make a lot of food because we need a big Shabbos table, we want to make a big nice Shabbos table, so even if it gets left over, so what? And there the pshat is, even if I know it's going to be left over, right? Reb Chaim Kanievsky says, no, only what you need for Shabbos. The only thing is, could be it's different. Why? Because there I taka need it. There I taka need it for now, for the table, like Rav Eitzig is saying. But where I don't know, and in my mind I'm just doing it stam and maybe, unless you say could be that's different. When I maybe need it is also better. My svara is that maybe needed is better than stam putting it knowing that it's not going to be. And maybe Reb Chaim Kanievsky wouldn't asser in the case of maybe needed, which really makes sense, because I don't know who. Okay, so that's why I'm going to get to the Shaar HaTziyun. That's why. They're doing it knowing that it's going to be left over, or they hope people will eat a lot. So that's we don't know. If the pshat is that we hope—my mother's Shabbos table is full, and she hopes they won't eat it. Right, so if you hope everyone eats it, then it's zecher better. That's what I'm trying to bring out. But if you know for sure that nobody's going to eat it, so maybe it could be aser. Maybe it could be aser. Rav Nissim Karelitz l'choira is saying we don't care. Makes no difference, because since l'maaseh it's good to have a nice big, you know, matzah to show ravchus by the table, so it's mutar. Now I want to go back to learn that Shaar HaTziyun.

Let's go back to learn the Shaar HaTziyun. The Shaar HaTziyun says, V'im birer lo oisah seudah, v'ach kach nimlach la'azvah l'seudah acheres, after chiyuv chatas ein b'zeh. So he says clearly, the kadma ma'aseh l'machshavah, right? So because the ma'aseh was he was birer lo oisah seudah, the machshavah later to change the mind, we don't care. Mikol makom, loi arich l'me'evad hachi. It's not the right thing to do. So yesterday we clarified, Rav Chiel brought out, what's the story, loi arich l'me'evad hachi? What does he mean? It's not the right thing to do, huh? No, it says, lois seudah. It says he did it lois seudah. The Shaar HaTziyun's story is he did it lois seudah. Afterwards, after he did the borer, he changed his mind. So he wants to know two questions. If a person did a borer, he's still allowed to eat it, so what's the loi arich l'me'evad hachi? What do you want him to do exactly? Huh? Not to do it again. So that's what I said yesterday, remember I said yesterday? Okay, so let me tell you the two צדדים. So listen to me, the two צדדים, which I don't agree means that. So let me explain to you what I think it means. So either the pshat is, either the pshat is, right, how do you learn the Shaar HaTziyun? What does he mean? V'im birer lo oisah seudah, v'ach kach nimlach la'azvah, so it's not right to do. V'tzarich ra'ui lidvarav. Now the truth is, from the Biur Halachah, I'm not even sure in the Shaar HaTziyun if he's paskening not like the Pri Megadim. Maybe it's mashma he doesn't even like the Pri Megadim's loi arich l'me'evad hachi. I still have a shaylah how to learn the Shaar HaTziyun. You know, I was thinking about it for a little bit today. How would you learn this Shar HaTzi? He's arguing on the Pri Megadim. V'tzarich ra'ayah l'dvar means that meileh you're not right about which part, the first part or the second part? The second part, that it's not right to do, says the Tzar HaTzi, a machlokes Shamayis. Okay? So Mishnah Berurah is saying you could do it, right? So l'chorah you have a machlokes if you could do it, okay? But what does he mean, it's not right to do? So yesterday I told you it's not right to do. Could be l'chatchilah, when you go and you make the borer, you have to bedavka make sure it's only what you need. Again, v'im birer lo ochel seudah v'akal nimlach l'azvah. Why are you nimlach l'azvah? Maybe because the pshat is you have enough food, so it's not kedai to be nimlach l'azvah. You should always be careful that what you need, you need, and you use what you need, and that's how you borer. So l'chatchilah it should be done this way. Or maybe the pshat is, I thought of a second pshat, which I think is more emes: don't change your mind, eat it. Go eat it. He's telling you you must eat it. Since l'chatchilah you did it this way, don't change your mind, so go eat it. So I am full, I am full, and I can't find a way how to get it done. Because you made it that it's not loysisa seudah. So that's the safek. That's what we see from here. It's a talui in machshavah, it's a talui in l'maaseh. That's what I want to show you from the Shar HaTzi. In the machshavah you did it l'alter, but afterwards you change your mind, so l'maaseh it's not l'alter. That's how I'm learning the Shar HaTzi. Even though the truth is the wording is tricky, because kodem maaseh l'machshavah—actually, the problem is that the maaseh is a maaseh borer, and the machshavah was not for borer. The wording is kodem maaseh l'machshavah. It's not a maaseh borer if it's derech achilah. I understand. So I'm just saying, but the real lomdus, what's going on here is, in machshavah it wasn't borer. In the machshava, my mind was it should be lalter. Grada turned out to be boir. Correct. I'm not disagreeing with the words. The words definitely mean what they mean, but it's tricky because the bottom line, what it really is saying, when my machshava lechatchila was not for boir, so it's not boir. Or do I go after the l'maaseh, and l'maaseh it is boir because I didn't eat lalter. Lechatchila, when I did the boir, lechatchila when I did the boir, I did it with the right machshava. Later on, the l'maaseh is it wasn't lalter. So the wording of the Mishnah Berurah is tricky. That's what I'm trying to bring out. The wording is that it was makdim machshava l'maaseh. His lashon is mashma that, be'etzem it's aser. Not that the food's aser, but it's aser to do such a thing. That's how I learned it. Yeah, that's how I learned it. That's exactly what I learned it. I know, I know, I know. The pshat I told you yesterday was glatt. The chiyuv chatos...

No, in this no chiyuv chatos, but he leans to the lashon ... it said, l'mafrea. Right. The shaylah is what—right, which means is, the way I am learning it is, the shaylah is on the avar. The way Rav Paltiel wanted to learn is, what's in the gehenna now, so maybe now you have to go eat it. That's not necessarily the ... Right. That's how I learned it yesterday. No, that's not what it says. That's not what it says. Right, the needah is, can I fix the avar? That's the needah. The truth is, so meila what's in the gehenna, don't have a case where lechatchilah you do one thing and then you change your mind later. So the point is not to eat it. The point is don't do one thing lechatchilah and then change it later. Peirush for next time. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Either the pshat is what you did lechatchilah, make sure you don't do, because you should lechatchilah make sure you're only being borer for what you need, or the second way to learn is you better make sure you eat it. All right? Everybody with me? I see the olam is looking at me like it was a— It's very simple. You know how simple it is? I'm going to have someone else do it. That's how simple it is. You want to do it? Yeah, why not? Go ahead. To make sure you're not going to come to a matzav that you might change your mind. Which means lechatchilah you start off by making sure you know what you need to eat, and don't change your mind. That's one way, and that's how I told you yesterday. Yeah. That's how we explained this shaylah yesterday, and the truth is he's right. That's what it says over here. The nekudah is, once I change my mind, it's no good. It's not the shaylah now, can I go eat it? That's not the nekudah so much. The other way to learn it is, the shaylah is, should I go eat it now? Which is telling the... Again, the lashon of machshavin ma'aseh is mashma like this, by the way. Yeah? The lashon of machshavin ma'aseh, because the shailah is, could the machshavah be oker the ma'aseh? This way of learning the Pri Megadim, then the lashon machshavin ma'aseh makes more sense. Because the question is, could the machshavah of nimlach change the ma'aseh before? The way you're learning is, shailah is, what's the l'maaseh? L'maaseh, I didn't eat, so go eat it, so therefore l'maaseh it won't be... Okay, those are the two ways to learn the Sha'ar Tziyun. You got it? What? A hundred percent. Gevaldik. I don't even have a hundred. How could you get it a hundred percent? I don't know everything else. Okay. You're the best. You have no idea how good you really are. Gevaldik. Okay. Let's say I'm not doing borer. I guess you get into the... I start to make a salad and I'm not preparing, and I know it's going to be leftovers. Is there a problem of hachanah? Exactly when we get to it. Let's wait, okay? Let's get to it. We're going to get to it, okay? You did borer for a meal, but there was an ones. Yes, this is really what it is. I mean... Is leftover to eat, is it considered melachah on Shabbos? You didn't use it right away. It's borer. Well, anyway, borer is going to be mutar anyway, the Pri Megadim. Even if you did borer b'mezid, you'd be able to eat it, so it doesn't really make a difference. Pri Megadim, first Pri Megadim, hilchos borer. B'mezid, you're allowed to eat it. We learned it. First day. First day we learned it, because you're not really being misaken the ochel. That was the first thing we learned. Okay, let's see weiter. Now, in the tziur that he's mesupak, that was the first Pri Megadim, no? It's like the first Primogarden. I know we had that. ... Primogarden, no, the first Primogarden. I have an egg. It's not that called tikanochlim. I have an egg. ... the issur lo sa Shabbos, then ... Shabbos. ... mashkasav agra, that it's mutar, no? No. No. ... That was another Primogarden. That was a different Primogarden. This is about, on that day, the issur lo sa Shabbos. The Primogarden says it's issur lo sa Shabbos. According to the Gra, it's mutar. First Biur Halacha. That's what I'm saying, the Mishnah Berurah paskens like that. And we explained, because you're not really ... the oichel, it's not really ... Shabbos, because you're allowed to eat it anyway. We spoke about this. Okay, now, what happens in a tzir where you don't know? Maybe you want to eat it. Maybe you don't want to eat it, right? Maybe you want to— ... Okay, the ... in the tzir that you're mesupak, in the tzir that you're mesupak, if you're going to want to eat something. Maybe I'm going to eat it. You know, let me see what it looks like after I make it. You know, I start doing the ... I start taking the oichel from the ... and I, you know what? I change my mind. I don't want to eat it. Or maybe...

I don't know. Are you allowed to be boirer misafek that it might be lalter? Okay. So Rav Lissin Karelitz says you're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. It has to be boirer lalter, for taka to eat it lalter. But if you're mesupak, which means you want to be boirer it in case you might want it, that's not good. Oh, sounds like my ringer, and I hear it all day, that in my sleep I hear that ring. And then I realize, ah, it's only in the sleep, it's not in shlaf, you know. Okay. What about it's here where you're preparing for orchim? Okay, so you have the case. So every boirer has to be for I need it, not boirer in case I need it. In case I might want to eat it, and I'm preparing it in case I want it soon. So let's say I do a boirer oichel for guests. The guests might come. What would you say? I don't know when they're showing up. It's a ... They told me they're coming in the afternoon. They told me before Shabbos they're going to show up in the afternoon. Oh. So l'choira, I would say a little different. Yeah, that becomes derech achilah. You always prepare in case. Now, isn't that preparation? Bishlama you, you're not preparing in case you want to eat, right? You said you ... have tons of people coming over your house. That's right. People are always, right? You never know who's coming. I'll tell you a very nice story. I heard this from Reb Zelig Epstein's ... shvoger. He was Reb Shimon Shkop's son, Avremele Shkop. You ever hear of Reb Avraham Shkop? Reb Avremele. They used to call him Reb Avremele Shkop. Reb Avremele Shkop told me. A maaseh about my grandfather, very nice maaseh. He said that when he moved into his, whatever, his apartment, so my grandmother and grandfather told him that they'd come to visit, you know, pay a visit because it's a new house, you know, his new apartment. Kitza she prepared a big, big, you know, lavish lachmaisah buffet of food, you know, for the guests. It rained, he said. In my life I never saw such rain. That's what he told me. The rain was pouring, he said there wasn't a soul in the street. Not a soul in the street. So they went to sleep thinking, who's gonna show up? Who's gonna show up in such a rain? Of course nobody's coming. My grandmother and grandfather knocked on the door, and they showed up soaking wet. What? I told you I'm coming, and you probably prepared. They showed up. So I say, I think they never had a problem with derech achilah and hachanah l'alta. By them it was always l'alta. That was the... Okay, but al kol panim, al kol panim that's a shailah. L'choirah, we could be meikel, maybe more, maybe more because it's derech achilah. I don't know. What? It happens. Students, yeah, yeah, they're gonna come. So maybe that's l'alta. So what would you pasken? I hold, yeah, I hold that's called l'alta. I hold that's called l'alta, no? Not really, huh? What can you do when they come? If they come, cut the... The guests are coming, you want to be nice, you want the table nice. People are hungry. You're cutting the food. You're saying, why should you prepare? And if you have a nice table, you're making a psak kiddush, a this, and people might show up and you want... No, I'm saying, I don't mean a kiddush, a kiddush-type table for guests that are showing up. You want the cookies and this. I don't know. Okay. B'kitzur, what about being boirer for a tinok? You never know. You never know if he's going to eat it. That's derech achilah for a tinok. Ah, so Reb Yitzchok says this svara. Reb Yitzchok says, since it's derech achilah, since the whole yesod of borer l'alter is derech achilah, so by a tinok not knowing if he's going to eat or not, it's still called derech achilah. By you, if you don't know if you're going to want it, that's not called derech achilah. But by a tinok, it's called derech achilah. Commit, commit, commit. Kol maher. Vos shteit? ... Once you know that that's called derech achilah. Bishlema by you, what do you mean? You know you're going to eat or not going to eat, so what do you mean? If you're not sure if you're going to eat, so that's not called derech achilah to prepare it. Mashen kein, if you hold by a tinok, the pshat is that's called derech achilah. If he eats, maybe; if he doesn't... Teretz says the ... no worse than tinok. Okay, anyways, b'kitzur, when orchim come and you want to prepare in advance and you're not sure when they're coming, and you're not sure if they're going to eat, it's the same yesod. Both. You never know who...

They greet, and you don't know when they're gonna come. Can you finish your ...? Okay, now what happens if a person wants to be mevarer, if a person wants to be mevarer to go to eat on the road? He prepares. For example, let's say you want to go to—let's take a walk in the park, and it's an eruv, so you're gonna be mevarer to take food with you, no? So what's the halacha? Now, he's not eating it now, right? But he—maybe it's called derech achilah. Maybe it's called derech achilah. So the Acharonim, and the ... all talk about this case, and they say it's not so pashut. Who says that's called derech achilah? Maybe it's like a hefsek, the fact that you're walking, so that's not called the alter. Why is he— If he's going to eat in that other place, then you could hear it's more derech achilah. Right, because that's— The svara l'hakel, the svara l'hakel, the svara l'hakel is a very pashut svara, because that's the normal derech achilah in such a case. You prepare in the house and you eat when you go there. So this I wrote also. So let me tell you what I wrote. Im oichel miyad, if he's going to eat right away, which means he's going there to eat, so that's the derech achilah, to prepare before you leave. But if you're going there and you think maybe I'm gonna get hungry, that's maybe not. The thing is, I clarify, ma nechshav l'achar zman, u'ma nechshav miyad. This is very—you know what it is? Why guests coming four hours later is derech achilah. You don't know when they're coming. The nekudah by guests is they tell you they're coming. It's a very beautiful classic shaila. The guests tell you—here, I've been seeing—the guests tell you they're coming in the afternoon. You don't know when they're coming. Could you stop and prepare? It's a very nice shaila. It's a beautiful shaila. You don't like the shaila, so— I love shaila. What? I like the shaila. You don't like the answer. Of course you're not sure. That's the point of the shiur. The point of the shiur is—what? No, it's not a beautiful shaila. It's not a— No, because this is the hardest sugya. Once... cool, you'll get this answer, then you'll know... Yeah, this is the mechanics of lalter. The shailah is, what do you call lalter? That call lachila. The derech—it's a normal derech to prepare in advance. You don't know if they're coming, but l'maaseh you have to prepare. Okay, so the same shailah would be, like I said, in case. In case, you hear? In case you prepare for the trip. For the trip. So I can't go on a trip on Shabbos, but let's say you're walking somewhere within the eruv and you need to take with you food. The hospital. The hospital, yeah, very good example, hospital. Yeah, is that called lalter? It's a beautiful shailah. Say lalter. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful shailah. Okay. Now, rabosai, let's go into another avenue and area. Yeah, I'm listening, I'm listening. Reb Shlomo Zalman says this—it's not me—Reb Shlomo Zalman says this vort, because the derech achilah is that he wants a nice... It's normal to come and that the table should be well prepared in advance. It's exactly what I said. It's exactly what we're saying. It's all—the question is, where do we draw the line? That's the beautiful shailah in halacha. It's a shailah how to be... Okay, now let me show you another avenue, another area of this halacha. When I take out from the freezer, and let's say it's a case where it's murav, because a lot of the freezer is not necessarily murav, but let's say it would be murav. I take out from the freezer challah to defrost. So l'choira it's oichel mitoch psoles, because I want to eat it, but it's defrosting, so is that called lalter? That's what you need for the seudah. What do you call alter? But what do you call alter? Says Reb Shlomo. Correct, that's what Reb Shlomo is. Reb Elyashiv, it's yadua, it's very famous, Naila Meshulash. I'll tell you in a second. Reb Elyashiv paskens it's asur. Very famous psak from Reb Elyashiv. No, it has to be mamish סמוך לסעודה. ... Reb Elyashiv brings down that Reb Elyashiv paskens that it has to be סמוך לסעודה, mamish, otherwise you can't give it a few hours to thaw. All right. Reb Shlomo Zalman, in perek gimmel, in the— I don't have to my Shmir Shabbos. Reb Shlomo Zalman, it was here, I don't know what happened to it. B'kitzur, perek gimmel, ha'ara— I wrote here ha'ara beis, I think it is, huh? Okay, so whatever, maybe it's around. B'kitzur, ha'ara whatever it is. Okay, so Reb Shlomo Zalman says, but no, but that's how you prepare. That's called the preparation for the seudah. How do you prepare for the seudah? You let the challah thaw out, and then it's prepared. So what do you want? Oh, wait a second. Lefi zeh, he says a beautiful yesod, the salad. He says a lot of times you want to cut the salad because it has to—

It has to get soaked in, says Rav Shlomo Zalman zatzal. I can't tell you how I love Rav Shlomo Zalman. You know what it is? He studied the velt halachahdik. Every little maaseh, every little thing was vos in halachah. A person, when he makes salad, he says, right, you want it should, you know, take with the juices; otherwise, you can tell the salad, it didn't sit for a while, it's gevaldik. He says, so maybe that's called derech achilah, that you could prepare it in advance. Mutar. Yelad says Rav Shlomo Zalman, to prepare it way in advance, you don't have the din of the half an hour, okay? This is in Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasah, perek gimmel, ha'arah — I wrote here, beis, but I don't think, I think it's reish or something, I don't remember; I remember it's later on, okay. Now, he's matir also in se'ifain beis, the freezer, the challah, the same cheshbon, because since it's needed to defrost, so then it becomes derech achilah, okay. So I wasn't sure — the alter is called a half an hour before the seudah? That's what we learned. Yeah, we learned. Yeah, we — half an hour, or Chazon Ish says half an hour, but we said there's no such — Chazon Ish, you know, I'll tell it to you separately, because we went through — we had a whole shiur about that — that there's no real half hour; it depends on what — each case is different, it depends on what you need, okay. Now, lemaaseh, everybody knows this, but they don't know — maybe now, maybe it's brought down there, I don't know — but there's a very famous, you know, in the Tikunim, he brings down chelek gimmel, which is this, the perek gimmel, ha'arah reish. He brings down that he's chozer. Rav Shlomo Zalman says that he doesn't think the sevara is emes, and therefore everything that he wrote, this sevara about anything which goes into normal hachanah to a seudah is called derech achilah, and therefore everything I wrote in the Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasah about hafeg tzinah and— And the salad, with the cutting up with the salad, it's not true. That's what he says. He's chozer on it. It's gevaldik. It's amazing. He said, because that's not ... that's not it. You have it? You have it? You have it? Here it is. Here it is. V'lafizeh, v'lafizeh, gam yishtanu hahalachos sheb'sif ayin beis, ayin daled, inyan kirur, v'hafagah mitzinah. So I had a kasha here. I have a kasha. He says not. That's the sh... So give me a minute. I want to show you what I want. Give me a few minutes, rabosai. I want to get it all out, because I want you to chew on it a little bit. What about the opposite way? If, let's say, I want to take a soda bottle, the one I want, to put into the refrigerator more than a half hour from the seudah. Why is that? Borer. I took a soda. What do you mean? I picked a soda. You have your Coke, your Pepsi, your... Take the good one. In the case where it's taruvos. Then everything is not taruvos. It's mixed in together. No, that's so you can only see it from the top. Top. You can only see it from the top. Chazon Ish says if I have a worm on top of a chasa, it's not borer. So you have to go through taruvos. But in a case where it's taruvos, you want to put something in the fridge. I'm just giving you that example, because the poskim talk about this. So I take it and I want to put it in the fridge. Again, I want that it should be cold, right? So chayrah it should be the same thing. Okay. So let me... What? Oh, I'm going to talk about that also. Give me a minute. Let me talk. You know what it is? Okay. L'maaseh, I taina a very big chiddush. Let's say you take, to put in the fridge, that it should be cold. So maybe it's only mutar till it gets cold. Let's say you would have to sit there with a clock, maybe. It takes 25 minutes to get cold, so maybe 25 minutes, that's it. That's the hachanah, the cold, it's cold. I dilma maybe the colder the better. I don't know, I was thinking about it a little bit. The olam likes more cold and more cold, it should be almost like it's frozen. Maybe there's no shiur to cold. It can never be cold too cold. Yes, so then everything you want, the colder the more time, the more time. That's no good. Then what's the difference here, time or not time? So I'm telling you, before, if you hold like the whole this cheshbon, then there's nothing what to talk about. But if you hold the cheshbon that it's all derech achilah, what about the other way around, where I want to put it in the fridge in order it should become cold for the meal? Now, I want to tell you an interesting cheshbon. Give me a minute, give me a minute, give me a minute. I know the olam is enjoying this and therefore they're screaming. Now, what about when I want to take something out to get defrosted? Do I have to make a cheshbon, oh, now it's roi l'achilah, okay, that's it. It takes 45 minutes, an hour and 10 minutes for it to get roi l'achilah, I have to sit there with a stopwatch? No, the she'eilah is when you pull it out. Again, let's say—

If you hold like ... you're not allowed to take a frozen thing out of the freezer, because even though it's the oichel, it's not ... because—okay. So I'm asking, let's say you hold it's mutar. Let's say we're going to be matir, all right? Because—so I'm asking, so what, you have to stand there with a stopwatch? Okay, now it's edible, and now, and now, and now? When you take it out, it has to be that just enough time. So I'm asking, you have to sit there with a stopwatch? Beforehand, it's too late after. I'm asking again, do you know before you take it out—starting at two o'clock—you only take it out at 1:15 during the week? How do you— you measured when the challah becomes defrosted? I don't—what do you— I didn't understand. What do you usually do? What do you usually do? I don't understand. That's why I'm asking you. I'm asking you a pashut she'eilah. That's what I want to know. Do you have to know? Make a cheshbon. That's it. Quickly, quickly, let's go eat the challah. It became defrosted, otherwise it's not ... Now the truth is, I was thinking maybe it has to do with, like, the davening with the beis haknesses. People usually defrost it first thing in the morning. That's what they do in my house. First thing in the morning, wake up, and you defrost the challahs for the Shabbos seudah. So maybe that's like the yotzim beis haknesses, and it's called samuch. But ein hachanami, it would come out that the night before you're not allowed to do it. It's a ... chiddush. Take out milk from the freezer Friday night. I'm—you're not allowed to do it? For Shabbos morning? If it's a taroves. Yeah, if it's a taroves. ... No. Huh? ... No. Why? It's me'aleh. What do you— ... let the milk ice cube. That's a ma'aseh. You're allowed to take out milk by itself. Usually take out ... That's when you put it into something. That's when you do a ma'aseh. But if I take out something, me'eleha becomes—of course you're allowed. Of course you're allowed to defrost something. Okay, now let me show you one more point and I'll... What happens if I take out something to become warm? I want to take the, right, this piece of chicken, this poor piece of chicken, I take out this piece of chicken. It's the oichel mitoch psoles, to put it next to the thing to warm up. So it's not laalter, because I'm waiting for it to warm up. What would you say about this? So Reb Shlomo Zalman paskens that that's called hachanah l'sudan; it's mutar. Okay. So I never understood. I don't remember. I think I asked this to Reb Neuberger. You know, I used to hang around kollel Torah. I used to hang around those summers, it was gevaldig, I used to hang around kollel Torah. I don't know why, I just remember him asking, but I don't remember, I don't know why, I don't remember the whole... what happened, but I remember asking either him, I thought I asked him, okay? But the kasha was there's a stira. Reb Shlomo Zalman says this is aser, so why by the chimum chelek does he say it's mutar? What's the... to defrost something. What's the difference in defrosting and warming? I had two sevaras. The one svara you could say is... Yeah. That's mutar, and one thing, the salad story, and then... Okay, so I wanted to say it could be like this: chimum, chimum, the derech is that I'm mechamem and I eat it right away. So the chimum is always someach to the seudah. When you defrost, it doesn't matter, the minute it's defrost, I go eat it. So it's not necessarily someach. What are you tying up, Leizer? Geshmak, right? That's what I wanted to tie up. And I have a shtikel raya to that. I'll tell you what my raya is. You ready? My raya is... A raya is like this: in hilchos melichah, they bring down from Reb Elyashiv that for a tinik, you're allowed to defrost. For example, a tinik is not going to eat, you know, something that's cold, so you're allowed to, for example, take a leben out of the fridge and let it get a little warm, because since the tinik is not going to eat it, says Reb Elyashiv, that becomes derech achilah. But wait a minute. I thought you just said that Reb Elyashiv asers all these other cases, right? He holds that you're not allowed to defrost the challah, so how come—I thought you said that he's matir to take out from the refrigerator—Reb Elyashiv, he's matir to take out from the refrigerator for a tinik, and we're talking about for a tinik, because the tinik is not going to eat it. So therefore it becomes derech achilah to let it defrost. So I don't understand. I thought you assered the unfreezing. The teretz is freezing is one thing. I know, but this is the same nekudah, though, because derech achilah he's not going to eat it any other way. You might wait for a while. Okay, so you know what, let me finish. I know, it's not mamash the same thing, because I— Nu? What? Mazel tov, mazel tov, mazel tov. Shabbos? Shabbos, gevaldik. Oh, it's gevaldik, gevaldik. Can I tell him what I paskened to you? Because I know it's very controversial what I said. Oh, I know. Oh yeah, very controversial. I heard from Rav Pam. What's the shailah? You're allowed to take the stuff that you need, for example, the—

No, the, for the insurances, the ID, the insurance stuff that you need for identification. So you take just that, or you're allowed to take like a purse or something to keep it in. By bishurim? What? Maybe bishurim is mutar. By what? By derabbanan, if you tell a goy, a goy is carrying for you. Oh, goy is carrying? There's no eruv here. There's no de'oraisa. It's not a reshus harabim de'oraisa. Rabam told me you're allowed to do this. Rabam told me you're allowed to take a thing. So you could take a sefarim, whatever you want. That's what it brought down. If the goy is carrying the valise, you're allowed to take whatever you need for Shabbos, because it's ribui bishurim, and it's only derabbanan the goy is doing it. So mashenken here, that's only derabbanan. You should know, I said it to you. Yeah, but there's no de'oraisa. It's not a reshus harabim. Lakewood's not a reshus harabim de'oraisa. There's no issur de'oraisa here. No, but there's no reshus harabim de'oraisa here. When I got there, there's no there. Where'd you go? You went to New York City? Where'd you go? You went to Kimmel. But it's a derabbanan. There's no reshus harabim. I'm telling you since it's only derabbanan. He carried it from the car. Again, it's the same derabbanan I'm telling you. It's only derabbanan l'maaseh. It's asur to carry derabbanan. So when it's asur derabbanan, the ribui bishurim becomes mutar. The parkway is not... He didn't carry it on the parkway. But what's on the parkway he carried it? No, no, no. It's in the car. The car carried it. Mazel tov. You make tzaros here. You make controversial zaken.